soild fuel stove advise

PeteHeat

cnocbui wrote: »

It's not a sharp 90 deg bend, it is a constant radius curve. Liners incorporating titanium are supposed to be fully capable of withstanding a chimney fire.

I believe if you look in the smal print you will find the liner capable of withstanding a chimney fire, but it must be replaced in the event of a fire, same goes for twin wall insulated flue.

The liner is not designed to be attached directly to the stove, there are specific adapters for connecting flexi to steel, (stainless, vitreous etc.).

While you and ttm appear to know the limitations and cautions that need to be taken after you after you installed your appliances others may not.

ttm I suggest that you check with the manufacturer of your cooker regarding using anthricite, the same fuel caused the grates to burn out of a lot of cookers in the 80's.

Your post on the different fuels made for very interesting reading as did the care you are taking with your flues.

You are spot on re setting fire to the chimneys, anyone who lives in old Dublin Corporation houses 1930's / 40's look around at the chimneys, most are cracked because they were poured concrete and could not take the heat of a "good chimney fire".

Children were sent up the flues by chimney sweeps, no it wasn't in the last recession Victorian times I believe (ever seen Mary Poppins ?).

cnocbui

PeteHeat wrote: »

I believe if you look in the smal print you will find the liner capable of withstanding a chimney fire, but it must be replaced in the event of a fire, same goes for twin wall insulated flue.

The liner is not designed to be attached directly to the stove, there are specific adapters for connecting flexi to steel, (stainless, vitreous etc.).

I was by no means advocating chimney fires or trying to be cavalier about them and their dangers. Having read through the thread I was rather disconcerted at the number of people who think a liner is an expensive luxury and just plumb the stove into an existing 200mm ceramic lined flue.

I was trying to highlight their advantages, particularly the safety margin they add, in the hope that people reading this thread might be encouraged to fit one, rather than take shortcuts.

I bought those adapters at the same time I did the liner and found them to be extremely ugly and ill-fitting. Fitting them would have entailed 3 joints that had to be sealed. I had absolutely no confidence in them mainatining seal integrity for any length of time, so I returned them The direct connection of liner to stove may not have been a design aim, but it is a mechanically superior solution to the alternative I had available. My installation has not given the slightest trouble in 7 years.

Children were sent up the flues by chimney sweeps, no it wasn't in the last recession Victorian times I believe (ever seen Mary Poppins ?).

Charles Kingsley's The Water-Babies, a victorian fairy story, featured a chimney sweep as the main character and depicted the horrors of the practice.

Carlow52

The regs limit the horz distance to one flue diameter: most stove installation guides have similiar or a 150mm limit.

If u have a 150mm diameter flue: then if u measure from center of flue to center of flue the actual horz bit is only 75mm:(

Any thoughts?

fmcc

Sorry Carlow don,t understand the question is the leangth of the horz run of flue 75mm?

Carlow52

Both links posted to show the ideas, and are not specific product recommendations

http://www.charnwood.com/features-external-air-manifold.asp

I know this idea is promoted by a chimney company in the BMW region and they will make one to order

http://www.charnwood.com/charnwood-flue-boiler.asp



[On this one Croppyboy will prolly weld a 40 gal barrel around that massive stove he has in the work shop:) ]

ttm

Carlow52 wrote: »

Both links posted to show the ideas, and are not specific product recommendations

http://www.charnwood.com/features-external-air-manifold.asp

I know this idea is promoted by a chimney company in the BMW region and they will make one to order

http://www.charnwood.com/charnwood-flue-boiler.asp



[On this one Croppyboy will prolly weld a 40 gal barrel around that massive stove he has in the work shop:) ]

I've always had a couple of reservations about flue boilers and other systems that recover heat from the flue gases which revolve around the fact if the chimney doesn't get hot enough then much of the "muck" that would otherwise leave the chimney as a gas or in particulate form precipitates out on the cold walls of the chimney. In other words the trade off is that you need to clean your chimney MORE often if you use the above flue boiler unless you are putting more fuel on the stove.

fmcc

Agree with ttm if the stove is already 75% eff and now we get more heat from the flue the flue gases are cooler and nit rising as fast. By all means try it but it may lead to chimney trouble. Its a similar idea to a condensing boiler but these often have a fan flue system.

PeteHeat

Hi ffmc,

Very good point, it is very difficult to get a stable flue gas temperature from a solid fuel as the temperature has to depend on the air intake and the quality of the fuel used.

As ttm pointed the the flue will need to be cleaned more often because there are two different temperatures at work, flue gas and the temperature of the water.

sooty_soupy

We were at the Royal Welsh Show and spoke to the rep for Charnwood. We broached the exact same point. We insist on steel lining and insulating every stove we install to ensure high flue gas temperatures on these super efficient stoves, especially insets FMCC, but that is in another post.

When we asked the rep about the additional cooling effect on flue gasses and the fact that the cooling effect on the already low flue temperatures were just going to encourage condensate build up, their guy just looked at us with a blank expression. He just didn't know what I was talking about. Perhaps he was out of his depth and should have had more training before being thrown into the deep end, but it didn't reflect well on the company not to have the answers to such a fundamental issue.

MUST TRY HARDER CHARNWOOD before we recommend them.

sooty_soupy

After a recent PM, I have been advised to rethink the message I am giving out by my last post.

Don't misunderstand what I am meaning here. It is not a new technology that Charnwood are introducing. Secondary heat recovery systems have been seen in Victorian houses in the past.

I am merely pointing out that with such a highly efficient appliance, my concerns are that a low flue gas temperature from a product as good as a Charnwood or some of it's healthy rivals, leads chimney technicians to be a little hot under the collar when we are having such a hard time convincing the general public to steel line the chimneys anyway. I would have expected the sales rep at the show to have insisted on steel lining to ensure a flue works as well as possible when there is a significant cooling effect acting directly on the gasses as they exit the appliance.

If anyone from Charnwood would care to enlighten the forum or myself personally I would love to hear their comments, as the sales rep couldn't give me the anwers I needed.. Simple as that

gsxr1

time to crank up the stove again. freezing.

cubix

I did read through most of this post a while back but cant remember the final out come with regards to the best way to vent it into a normal chimmeny/fireplace that was used to burn solid fuel( coal/wood etc)

Thanks

PeteHeat

Hi,

Despite the advice given to line the flue with the correct diameter liner designed, made and certified for solid fuel and back filled with vermiculite others still prefer to use a flue inserted into the existing clay flue and others happy to use adapters that have been shown to have problems and are against the building regulations.

I didn't count how many in favour of which method, two I know prefer the professional approach.

.

gsxr1

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi,

Despite the advice given to line the flue with the correct diameter liner designed, made and certified for solid fuel and back filled with vermiculite others still prefer to use a flue inserted into the existing clay flue and others happy to use adapters that have been shown to have problems and are against the building regulations.

I didn't count how many in favour of which method, two I know prefer the professional approach.

.

im straight into the clay linner via an adaptor. Money is very tight .

Must get her cleaned soon.

PeteHeat

gsxr1 wrote: »

im straight into the clay linner via an adaptor. Money is very tight .

Must get her cleaned soon.

It has nothing to do with getting people to spend more money just because its available.

How much are the lives of your family worth ?

Can you afford to re-build your home out of cash in the bank ?
Because the insurance companies do not cover known hazards.

Why buy a stove that has efficiency ratings based on the flue size then prevent the stove from working as it should ?

Don't expect the manufacturer or retailer of the adaptor to take the blame when the worst happens, none of them take responsibility for the installation of a part or product they have no control over after it leaves the factory / shop.

I think I am qualified to make such a statement

.

gsxr1

PeteHeat wrote: »

It has nothing to do with getting people to spend more money just because its available.

How much are the lives of your family worth ?

Can you afford to re-build your home out of cash in the bank ?
Because the insurance companies do not cover known hazards.

Why buy a stove that has efficiency ratings based on the flue size then prevent the stove from working as it should ?

Don't expect the manufacturer or retailer of the adaptor to take the blame when the worst happens, none of them take responsibility for the installation of a part or product they have no control over after it leaves the factory / shop.

I think I am qualified to make such a statement

.

sorry but I never suggested that I was ever going to blame fittings and insurance companies or anyone of anything???

It does have a lot to do with money. The majority of the population may disagree with you . lol.
Gings where i got it, and sack cloths and ashes fitters told me to do it this way.

I will see the state of the chimney soon as it will be getting cleaned and inspected. After a year of use and never really getting a chance to cool Apart form summer . There should be evidence of creosote . If there is a heavy deposit I will upgrade.



I hope it will be fine. was a brand new unused chimney before install. So results of using an adaptor as opposed to spending 1000s on a twin walled liner should be clear. Pic to come. maybe next week.

sooty_soupy

This is becoming tiresome to say the least. I will go on record and state that anyone selling these adapters are rogues, or ill educated box movers who have no regard to anything but selling a box and forgetting about you. Have a look at the images (if I have attached them properly) and see what I mean. Condensate is the treacle like substance generated from burning fuel with moisture in it. This is cooled on clay liners and the idea behind these adapters was it should contain the moisture into the stove to be re evaporated. The adapters allow the condensate to leak around the outside pipe rather than contain it....it's simple.

The other images are of chimneys that have condensate leaking from upside down or cracked liners. Chimney fires have been registered at over 2000 degrees C from wood burning appliances. As Pete has said, a stove is tested and rated at a KW output based on the diameter of flue the manufacturer has stipulated in the installation instructions. WHY WHY WHY would you spend good money on a stove and fit it like an idiot and wonder why it is not performing like you wanted it to. OVER RATED FLUES CAN BE UNSAFE....and that is stated in building regs up here in the north and you guys have similar regs down there.

Have a nice day

David

Registered chimney technician

Eurorunner

sooty_soupy wrote: »

This is becoming tiresome to say the least.

Tiresome, perhaps - but where were you all with this advice when this thread started a year ago?

If these things are dangerous, shouldnt the trade lead bringing about their withdrawal from the market?

I did a diy install last year using one of these adapters - read extensively on all aspects of the subject but never came across this..

So am I right in saying the only way to rectify is to use a proper liner from chimney top directly into the stove?

gsxr1

sooty_soupy wrote: »

This is becoming tiresome to say the least. I will go on record and state that anyone selling these adapters are rogues, or ill educated box movers who have no regard to anything but selling a box and forgetting about you. Have a look at the images (if I have attached them properly) and see what I mean. Condensate is the treacle like substance generated from burning fuel with moisture in it. This is cooled on clay liners and the idea behind these adapters was it should contain the moisture into the stove to be re evaporated. The adapters allow the condensate to leak around the outside pipe rather than contain it....it's simple.

The other images are of chimneys that have condensate leaking from upside down or cracked liners. Chimney fires have been registered at over 2000 degrees C from wood burning appliances. As Pete has said, a stove is tested and rated at a KW output based on the diameter of flue the manufacturer has stipulated in the installation instructions. WHY WHY WHY would you spend good money on a stove and fit it like an idiot and wonder why it is not performing like you wanted it to. OVER RATED FLUES CAN BE UNSAFE....and that is stated in building regs up here in the north and you guys have similar regs down there.

Have a nice day

David

Registered chimney technician

so what is the solution for me. I am not paying 1000s to vent a stove into an existing new chimney. That solution is out. With no job its not happening.
Are there any ways to combat the trecle stuff. Additive we can add to our fires. As well as regular cleaning.
The example you have shown . Did the owners clean there stoves and use seasoned wood?
I burned wood and coal all last year and have no leaks like the pic.
here is mine taken today when cool.
the black stuff is the mastic I used along with fire cement and was there from day one.

PeteHeat

Eurorunner wrote: »

Tiresome, perhaps - but where were you all with this advice when this thread started a year ago?

If these things are dangerous, shouldnt the trade lead bringing about their withdrawal from the market?

I did a diy install last year using one of these adapters - read extensively on all aspects of the subject but never came across this..

So am I right in saying the only way to rectify is to use a proper liner from chimney top directly into the stove?

Hi,

How many people actually buy from a stove shop where the full service of supply and installation is offered ?

I know there are many who visit such outlets, there are times the same people are looking to see the stove they intend buying off the internet and of course will take all of the best advice they can get free of charge, of course that does not mean they act on the advice given.

That should answer the question about the trade leading the way having the product withdrawn, we are here giving you the advice and meeting with nothing less than opposition.

I can assure you running an outlet that sells quality products and installation is unusual, I was advised to stay off the shop floor and leave the sales to a young person who has no knowledge about installation, preferably someone strong enough to lift the box's into the cars, hence the term "Box Movers".

It is the job of the regulators to have the products removed from the market, as can be seen from the time of this post I am not going to launch a one man opposition to them, I simply do not have the time.

gsxr1

I know you won't appreciate this but the lovely copper colour that was once nice shiny stainless steel is Not A Good Sign.

It suggests that your flue gas temperature is way too high, at a guess I would say somewhere around 700c + (too late to check the database).

I don't know the stove model in the photo but it looks like it should be about 5 kw I doubt you are getting anything near 60% efficiency, it may also explain why you don't have a creosote problem.

Stainless steel is not designed to be subjected to such high flue gas temperatures, my source is quite possibly the company who manufactured your adapter.

If / when the adaptor develops a small hole you then have the hidden problem of carbon monoxide, if you and your family are lucky the hole will be big enough to allow you smell smoke.

.

Eurorunner

Yes, buying off the internet sure - but the decision process is this for many.

A. Buy off the internet.

OR

B. cant afford to do the job so do without it.

I would have opted for B if I had known what I now know...

gsxr1

It is a 6.4kw stanley. and really to hot for the room. So i have to keep her at 1/4 for the most time. It heats my whole 2 bedroom town house with all the doors open. No need to use the gas at all except for water.

But I do a full temp burn for an hour or so every week . The rear fittings go a low cherry red in complete dark during this exercise.

would explain the discolouration. After your advise I will tone it down a little.
No fact behind it, something i figured. A full blast burn will keep it clean and really warms the whole chimney breast of the house for the rest of the week.
Thats just my guess work by the way. Not sure if it is good or bad. But by keeping your whole chimney warm I believe there is less chance of condensation settling on it during light ups in the evenings



As said . Maintaining a clean chimney is important to me as I am at a disadvantage from the start with the adaptor. Thats all i can hope to do( with the addition of 2 carbon monoxide detectors one in the living room and one in the landing upstairs. )

till money returns to my pocket anyways.

40 euro to get it sweept next tues.

I know my set up is wrong. and I am making excuses. But it is what it is now

{edit}Just fitted 2 extra detectors after your warning. in each bedroom.
thats 4 plus 2 smoke alarms and 2 heat detectors. Tis like the starship enterprise with all the flashing lights lol




I was also thinking. Even if there was a leak. Surly the leak would draw air in rather than push gas out with the draw from the draft plus the heat rising?. Im sure the adaptor is not air tight as they are all spot welded.

Eurorunner

gsxr1 wrote: »

I know my set up is wrong. and I am making excuses. But it is what it is now

You can still stick in a liner sometime when funds allow though?

Have hardly used mine but its still serving a purpose by sealing off that hole and keeping heat in.

kodak

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi,

How many people actually buy from a stove shop where the full service of supply and installation is offered ?

.

I have bought a stove from a large shop (well known) and they did a survey and fitted it.

I must say it was the worst possible job and a dangerous one too.
The quality of work was brutal. Had to get them out to do it again and even still it was poor. I ended up taking it apart and doing it myself.
So just beacause you get a professional to do it, doesn't mean it's a safe or good job. You just presume that.

My last stove i fitted myself. And although it may not be 100% correct and within the regs, as i used a clay adaptor it was a much better job than a 'professional did' on my first stove.

I will keep an eye on it and i only burn well seasoned wood and coal and keep it clean, according to the manufactures instructions.

I think a well looked after chimney and flue is much safer than leaving the iron on or burning unattended candles. Of which most of us do more often than we llike!

gsxr1

Eurorunner wrote: »

You can still stick in a liner sometime when funds allow though?

Have hardly used mine but its still serving a purpose by sealing off that hole and keeping heat in.

that is true. And will happen in better times. For sure.

I dont think I could sell the house in the future with the current set up either.

Im thinking I may be liable if all went tits up for a new owner.

Although its so frustrating to hear . I do acknowledge the better advise especially by peat . It not falling on deaf ears. thanks

sooty_soupy

Ok the pictures sent with the stove going out through the open fire by gsxr1. If I were at your house as a registered chimney technician, I would be condemning the installation as a fire hazard to start with. You have not got enough non combustible material in front of the appliance to comply with fire and building regulations to begin with. If you ever have a house fire and the fire inspection people decide the stove was the cause, you insurance company would walk away from you.

The other thing that strikes me is the fact you have effectively got a 90 degree bend of the back of the stove which is a critical point for flue gases to discharge from the stove. If accumulation gathers at this point it will restrict the flue and can cause carbon monoxide issues and performance problems. If a stove is to be vented from the rear a 90 degree bend is never to be used. It is safer to use a t section to allow for a collection area for soot to gather but not restrict the flue.

As for Eurorunner, I can assure you I have been here for 20 years in the North sorting out these problems. My credentials speak for themselves. We have had five sales this week to customers from over the border as the advice from box movers is "dubious and misleading" to quote one customer.

It appears that people like Pete and I are all singing loudly from the hymn sheet, meanwhile the box mover are getting away with blue murder. Here is something to mull over. If you can buy the stove on the internet, or in every street corner shop, and the prices are being cut to shreds, what does this tell you...it tells me that the manufacturer couldn't give a damn about WHO sells the stoves as long as they are selling, because they don't care about their product. We had to be vetted by Clearview, in Shropshire, at our expense, for 3 or 4 days before they would consider us, and it was only because of my sound background in the solid fuel industry that swayed their decision. Now what does that tell you about them? THEY HAVE PRIDE IN THEIR PRODUCT, AND A REPUTATION TO PROTECT.

Once more...I hope this helps.

David

gsxr1

so how much would it cost to line the flu? not including the larger hearth. I take it you sell them.......

it is two 45 degree angles which is completely acceptable and not a 90 bend by the way.
I thought you with all your credentials would know that???
it has a 12" straight inbetween the 45s so the whole 90 degree bend thing does not apply .

As for the front. It should have a large harth. But it does not. There is a large tile put in front for opening when lit.

And as I am the only one who operates the stove , Its not an issue.. Regardless of regs. My house is 99.9% not going to burn down lol.

Eurorunner

Yes, It does help. Its just a little frustrating that these fittings are not fit for purpose. I suppose the very fact that they exist and are stocked by many hardware outlets led me to assume that they are robust enough to do the job and don't affect the performance of the stove.

I will probably line it at some point in the future. Luckily enough, Its very rarely used right now - happy enough that it acts as an air seal - preventing heat from the main heating system escaping.
Probably take the opportunity to extend the hearth and move it out further into the room as i'm not getting the max value out of it right now anyway.

sooty_soupy

I want you to have a look at the picture I have attached and try to grasp why 90 degree bends, or 2 x 45 degree bends are a problem. It is easy to have a "laugh at loud" when someone is trying to give you sound advice, but your head is buried in the sand as to how dangerous these things can be.

It is the collection area for soot that is the problem, not the actual bend. Once it clogs up with soot, or with washed down crust, THAT CAN HAPPEN AT ANY STAGE BETWEEN SWEEPING SERVICES, THE FLUE CAN BLOCK INSTANTLY AT THIS HORIZONTAL POINT, you are and your family are statistics. I'm not so sure that sarcasm would save you in a situation like this. I'm not disputing that some in the industry would suggest a swept 45/45 bend is safe, but what I am saying is there is a safer way again...I'm trying to steer you in the right direction and questioning my credentials publicly is disappointing to say the least. I know if the safety of my family was in question, I would be glad to accept free advice, especially when it makes probably more sense than you have ever heard from the box mover/profit driven idiot that knows about numbers and spreadsheets.

Pete and I have had more discussions between ourselves as to how exasperating it is to be spending our time giving our educated views to the general public, for the customer to walk out of the shop and buy online, or go the cheap route...the ironic thing is when things go wrong, who do these people come looking for when they can't get answers from the internet seller or the idiot in the hardware shop....oh yes we're on one right now, looking for expert guidance....then when you get it, you give snide comments when the answers are forthcoming.

The pictures I have posted has caused mild brain damage to the client, and he was lucky....and much like Kodak's experience, it was a "big firm" up here that did it too... the case rumbles on today, and I am apparently going to be called as an expert witness.

To answer a lot of your questions, you are able to retro fit a steel sleeve to the flue. Use the correct, weep hole adapter, pot hanger sleeve, make sure the chimney is thoroughly, if not mechanically cleaned before installation to prevent rotting from the outside, use 904 grade steel if you can afford it, especially if you burn coal as well as wood and turf. Finally, ensure the flue is insulated with vermiculite or equivalent. It adds stability to the flue and ensures a maintained flue gas temperature when the appliance is burning slowly. Our manufacturer of choice is a company called Docherty Chimney Group in England. They have been making this stuff for years, and the biggest proportion of registered technicians in the UK use it, including all of us in the North. We have tried all the others and find them inferior and because they are "springy" they are difficult to work with....and that comes from 18 years experience working with steel lining.

And yes...we stock the stuff, and would imagine that if someone is able to access the roof, then installation would not be too taxing to the 5/8th in the street after they have seen our showroom set up, where we have a flue display area set up for this very purpose. Cost is dependant on the grade of liner and length, but about £600 should buy the materials if you are using the 904 grade stuff on an average 8m flue, with the 20 year warranty, and to most, a day will install it. 316 flue for wood and turf use only would be a little cheaper at about £400 for the same length. VAT would be added and you would need a few bags of vermiculite.

There..hope that kicks a Sunday morning off well on Boards.

I need a day off !!!

Keep safe

Qwerty?

sooty_soupy wrote: »

.I'm trying to steer you in the right direction and questioning my credentials publicly is disappointing to say the least. I know if the safety of my family was in question, I would be glad to accept free advice, especially when it makes probably more sense than you have ever heard from the box mover/profit driven idiot that knows about numbers and spreadsheets.

Keep safe

I for one appreciate the free, accurate advice Sooty, and not once in our emails did you try to sell me anything, just advised me on what I needed.

I sent you another email that you might have a look at when you've had your day off:D.


Thanks Again

Qwerty.