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If Gods existence was proven...

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    #122
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I've think I've a good way to explain it: When we ask why bad things happen, religious people say things like "It was god's will" or "god works in mysterious ways" or "it is not for us to understand" which we all know is BS.

    But imagine a world where those arguments were actually valid and there really was a being that was so much more advanced than us that even if something appeared immoral to us, we would know we were wrong simply because this being was telling us we were

    I have read fantasy novels along those lines, in the end generally, people rebel, as their god was telling them waht to do, which was kill people/holy war etc.

    One story I liked was that two different religions had a war against each other, they were both in contact weith their gods who told them it was the right thing to do to kill the people of the other religion. Turned out it was the same god on both sides telling them different morals and guiding them differently, and getting them fight, just to have some fun watching them kill each other.


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    #123
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    If Atum/Jove/Jehovahgod/Zeus actually existed we'd be morally obliged to wage war on him.


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    #124
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    I have read fantasy novels along those lines, in the end generally, people rebel, as their god was telling them waht to do, which was kill people/holy war etc.

    One story I liked was that two different religions had a war against each other, they were both in contact weith their gods who told them it was the right thing to do to kill the people of the other religion. Turned out it was the same god on both sides telling them different morals and guiding them differently, and getting them fight, just to have some fun watching them kill each other.

    Right, but that's not what we're being asked to consider. We are being asked to consider that a being that actually is the source of morality is proven, not just one that claims to be but actually isn't
    Gambler wrote: »
    I think you are talking about a different theoretical situation to the original post:
    There is no specific mention of their perfection being proven. If there were a way for perfection to be proven theoretically then absolutely yes, there is no way you could not worship because it is not a blind worship..

    There is no specific mention of perfection being proven but there is mention of Jehovah being proven who claims to be perfect. I'm glad we're in agreement :)


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    #125
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    There is no specific mention of perfection being proven but there is mention of Jehovah being proven who claims to be perfect. I'm glad we're in agreement :)

    Hehe I would say that claims to be != proven ;)


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    #126
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    Gambler wrote: »
    Hehe I would say that claims to be != proven ;)

    Please tell me you're joking and you know what I'm saying before I go and shoot myself.


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    #127
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Right, but that's not what we're being asked to consider. We are being asked to consider that a being that actually is the source of morality is proven, not just one that claims to be but actually isn't

    Who said the one I am talking about isn't?


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    #128
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm going to cry here. If you want to talk about some other god then start another thread. This one is asking us to assume that the christian god is proven along with all the claims that are made about him, including the ones that he is the source of morality and is perfect

    And how about where his morals contradict themselves in the old testament vs the new testament? Does this mean his morals are not absolute?


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    #129
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Please tell me you're joking and you know what I'm saying before I go and shoot myself.

    Yes I am mostly joking. I accept your proposition and agree with you. If there is a situation where gods perfection is proven (there is a real material god and their behavior is consistent with the claim of perfection) then yes I would re-evaluate my position on god and would probably worship them alright.

    However I do also say that imho the original poster was talking about a different situation where the god of jehovah is proven to exist and claims (again claims != proof in this situation) perfection. In this situation if their behavior was morally objectionable to me then I would not worship them and probably attempt to resist them.


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    #130
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    And how about where his morals contradict themselves in the old testament vs the new testament? Does this mean his morals are not absolute?

    sorry I deleted that post before seeing your response. Pretend I didn't :)

    No it doesn't mean his morals are not absolute, it means that there is actually no contradiction but our minds are not advanced enough to understand the motivation of this perfect being.

    But, and this is a very important but, only for the purposes of this thread where we are being asked to assume as much. In reality that is of course a load of crap


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    #131
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    Gambler wrote: »
    Yes I am mostly joking. I accept your proposition and agree with you. If there is a situation where gods perfection is proven (there is a real material god and their behavior is consistent with the claim of perfection) then yes I would re-evaluate my position on god and would probably worship them alright.

    However I do also say that imho the original poster was talking about a different situation where the god of jehovah is proven to exist and claims perfection. In this situation if their behavior was morally objectionable to me then I would not worship them and probably attempt to resist them.

    And if the OP means what you think he means, I agree with you. So we're all in agreement. I'm off to commit suicide :pac:

    edit: But first, maybe we should ask the OP what he actually means


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    #132
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Hehe Actually I'm quite enjoying the debate created by not knowing :P


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    #133
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Ok, sure, by the terms of the OP God created right and wrong so in a technical sense God is not wrong to murder children. Here's the thing though, this objective morality is pretty much nothing like what I consider to be morality. Funny that. He basically follows the rules he created and pinning into the universe somewhere, and he calls it "good"...and yet it resembles nothing like what we'd call good day to day.

    So we need to be careful with our lingo. I'm gonna rename this unusual objective morality that doesn't resemble morality as "blork".

    God is perfectly blork.

    From my point of view, he's still a God awful son of a bitch though.


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    #134
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    ok I'm going to say how great I think it is that we have actually gotten to the level where we can assume god exists for the sake of an interesting discussion without worrying about losing "points" to the other side.

    Based on the poll results, I interpret the logic as thus: "God is real! He created the universe, then proved it to us and revealed himself beyond doubt, yet I still deny and/or can't know that such a thing exists"

    Nonsense.


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    #135
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Valmont wrote: »
    ok I'm going to say how great I think it is that we have actually gotten to the level where we can assume god exists for the sake of an interesting discussion without worrying about losing "points" to the other side.

    Based on the poll results, I interpret the logic as thus: "God is real! He created the universe, then proved it to us and revealed himself beyond doubt, yet I still deny and/or can't know that such a thing exists"

    Nonsense.
    No, I think it is more like, "Wow, he does exist. What a prick."

    MrP


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    #136
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Valmont wrote: »
    ok I'm going to say how great I think it is that we have actually gotten to the level where we can assume god exists for the sake of an interesting discussion without worrying about losing "points" to the other side.

    Based on the poll results, I interpret the logic as thus: "God is real! He created the universe, then proved it to us and revealed himself beyond doubt, yet I still deny and/or can't know that such a thing exists"

    Nonsense.

    Read the poll again.


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    #137
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    If the existance of god was proven why should anyone fall down and worship him?
    After all if there can be one god why can't there be more than one?
    The first god to be proven could just be the runt of the litter. The village idiot of the gods so to speak. The one who couldn't even stay secret and mystical.
    Worship the first god to come along? Not me, I want choices and incentives or it's no deal.


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    #138
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    MrPudding wrote: »
    No, I think it is more like, "Wow, he does exist. What a prick."

    MrP

    Surely we wouldn't be qualified to make such an assertion as we are mere mortals who could never comprehend his cosmic plan.

    Hypothetical as this is, thinking you could know more than or outright castigate an omnipresent and immortal entity is either arrogant or foolish, or both.


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    #139
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    I'm an atheist/agnostic and it wouldn't change a thing.
    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Read the poll again.

    Duly noted.


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    #140
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Valmont wrote: »
    Surely we wouldn't be qualified to make such an assertion as we are mere mortals who could never comprehend his cosmic plan.

    Hypothetical as this is, thinking you could know more than or outright castigate an omnipresent and immortal entity is either arrogant or foolish, or both.

    The fact that he has a plan doesn't make him less of a prick. Hitler had a plan :pac:


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    #141
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Valmont wrote: »
    Surely we wouldn't be qualified to make such an assertion as we are mere mortals who could never comprehend his cosmic plan.

    Well we are created in his image, with morals from his book, so we should have a pretty good idea of what is actually right and wrong.


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    #142
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Well we are created in his image, with morals from his book, so we should have a pretty good idea of what is actually right and wrong.
    im, sorry but show me something that proves god wrote the bible. because im fairly certain it was written be men.


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    #143
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Well we are created in his image,
    Why don't I look like Eddie Murphy, or Christina Applegate if it come to that?


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    #144
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Teutorix wrote: »
    im, sorry but show me something that proves god wrote the bible. because im fairly certain it was written be men.

    The Bible proves God inspired the Bible. Sure its all there? Why would they write that down if it wasn't true .... ?


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    #145
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    Hagar wrote: »
    Why don't I look like Eddie Murphy, or Christina Applegate if it come to that?

    Don't you mean Alanis Morrisett?


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    #146
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Don't you mean Alanis Morrisett?
    Wouldn't that be ironic?! Or at least as ironic as ten thousand spoons. :pac:


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    #147
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Valmont wrote: »
    Surely we wouldn't be qualified to make such an assertion as we are mere mortals who could never comprehend his cosmic plan.

    Hypothetical as this is, thinking you could know more than or outright castigate an omnipresent and immortal entity is either arrogant or foolish, or both.

    I'm glad someone see's this. I really don't get the 'Well he's a prick if he does exist' malarky. I think you put it well in your post.


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    #148
    legologic
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭legologic


    I'm non-Christian but otherwise religious and I'd convert.
    I think I'd like to talk to him/her/it as that would be interesting but the idea of actual praise or worship seems revolting to me.


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    #149
    conbhui
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭conbhui


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Well we are created in his image, with morals from his book, so we should have a pretty good idea of what is actually right and wrong.

    created in his image? do you believe that?


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    #150
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    One thing to remember in this forum is that we often debate the qualities of the God believers follow without actually believing in that God.

    So basically we treat it as a hypothetical, Genghiz's post above can be assumed to begin with an invisible if Christianity is right....


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    #151
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I'm glad someone see's this. I really don't get the 'Well he's a prick if he does exist' malarky. I think you put it well in your post.

    If a murderer kills someone, he's a prick.
    If a murderer kills someone but explains that that person would be the next Hitler, I could understand but he's still a prick.
    If a murderer kills someone and says 'it's alright, I have a plan', he is most definitely a prick.
    Hiding behind 'we cannot possibly understand' doesn't wash with me.

    If god can do anything, then he can explain his plan to us mere mortals so we can understand why he thinks it's right to kill a baby, but it would need to be a damn good reason.


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