Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

tba · 17-02-2009 2:28pm

why?

Rsaeire · 17-02-2009 3:05pm

tba wrote: »

why?

One reason is that I don't like the sound of the language; a personal reason, but a reason nonetheless. If the Irish language had any hopes of survival, then the government ruined it with how it is/was taught in school. A major reform would need to be taken, however, the 13 step, 20 year plan the government have agreed to will most likely not amount to much, if anything at all. Any faith in the current/last government is gone with the current/last government’s faults that we, as Irish citizens, have now to deal with.

I can speak for a lot of people, having discussed this issue with a wide range of people, that the language has died as it is not spoken prominently throughout the country, it is not optional in school and it is not taught sufficiently within school either. I agree that if the aforementioned items were looked into, and by looked into I mean seriously, efficiently and expediently, then the Irish language would at least have hope of survival and of nationwide adoption. Unfortunately, for those of you who wish the Irish language to experience a renaissance, I am very doubtful as to whether this will become a reality, or is merely an idealistic dream.

BennyLava · 17-02-2009 3:10pm

Like many others in this thread, I think the way its taught is the main problem, its not taught as a vibrant living language rather as a rather boring academic exercise

I don't believe that you have to have it to be Irish,it would be nice but it's not necessary, like any culture ours is constantly evolving, we take influences from abroad and regurgitate them in our own fashion,
the way we are and act today is as much Irish as the way our forefathers acted in their day,

Alot of those who push an Irish language agenda appear to want to revert our culture to an imagined bygone day, of everyone speaking irish and dancing at the cross roads, it never happened, its a fantasy get over it

In my mind the mark of a living culture is how it adapts to and adds to the world around it, we took the english language and through its medium reached new heights, Yeats, Beckett Wide etc..,

Saying all that one way you could increase the level of irish spoken would be if all education at primary level was conducted through Irish, while losing the compulsary status in secondary, i'd say you would be plesantly surprised how many would choose to continue to study it

cautioner · 17-02-2009 5:02pm

He was on the bus...in his pyjamas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

branwen · 01-03-2009 2:40pm

Hi there!

I came across this thread whilst looking up info on the lrish language. I think it's great that so many (well, going by the poll) want to keep the language going.I noticed that a few were wondering about the Welsh language, and how we've managed to keep it going, and why so many people speak it now. There are a few reasons.

One thing, Wales doesn't have independence. Far from it. So Welsh has been used as something to set us apart from England. I've noticed that people see Wales as a part of England, and while that is true politically and by law, we don't see it that way, and the language has helped us with our identity.

Also, religion has kept it going. The only place where Welsh was really used was in churches/ chapels (Methodist I think). It was banned in schools, and it was treated as an inferior language and people were ashamed to use it in public.

In Wales, education is very important, so Welsh, on the whole, has been taught quite well. The education in Welsh medium schools are better than the English medium schools, so parents are sending them to the Welsh schools even if neither can speak Welsh themselves. There aren't enough places in the Welsh schools, as there's so much demand, and they're closing down English medium schools and making them Welsh medium. Also, there's a renewed national pride here, and people want a link to their heritage and culture. Also, parents are learning Welsh to keep up with their kids' homework etc.

There's also a culture attached to Welsh, such as the Urdd, and the Eisteddfod. So it's more than a language, it's a 'lifestyle' too. Wales is small country, and we have a population of 3 million. So the Welsh speakers are closer together, especially in the North and West. But there are lots in Cardiff and Swansea too. So it's more spread out.

Also, there are many jobs here that require Welsh. Especially in museums, the media and in politics. So there are incentives to use Welsh and people have more chances to use it in their daily lives, so they don't lose their ability to speak it. It is very much a living language. But this can be annoying for incomers (not just the English to be fair, I've seen Scots moaning about it as well) as they don't realise just how prevalent the language is until they get here, and they get a shock.

Welsh is now seen as a fun language and there's a lot of goodwill towards it. Also, a lot of Welsh actors/ singers are Welsh speakers such as Rhys Ifans, Matthew Rhys, Ioan Gruffudd, Cerys Matthews, Duffy, Super Furry Animals, Bryn Terfel. So it's seen as an Ok language now, kind of like 'well, they speak it and they're successful'. There's less shame.

But there are some downsides. There are people who are dead against the language, and want it to die out. They tend to be very pro- Britain and they hate Wales/ Welsh and everything that goes with it. They see themselves as British not Welsh. And they really hate us Welsh speakers! They reckon we're backwards and an embarrassment. To be honest, I think a lot of people have an inferiority complex about the language, and it still exists today. So, the stronger the language becomes, the more annoyed these people get. Also, a lot of people who come to live here (not just England, but it usually is) don't like the fact their kids are taught Welsh in schools, or that our signs are bilingual etc and think it encourages nationalism. Welsh is still seen as a nationalist language and that Welsh speakers are cottage burning English hating nationalists! But on the other hand you get some English who learn the language and send their kids to Welsh schools. So it's not all bad.

I'm sure I haven't covered it all, but I hope this has given you an insight into what happened in Wales.I'm sure that there are organisations in Wales who would be glad to help you out with your language, and show you how we did it. I think it would be a great shame in Irish died out, because it's a lovely language.

Oh, and congrats on your rugby win yesterday!

Diolch!
Thanks!

01-03-2009 2:52pm

Well said, I've always considered that the use of Welsh in Wales should an insparation for Irish people who want the Irish language to become part of mainstream life rather than sidelined by most as it is now.
The main reason I often referred to welsh was because I lived in Fflint for a while, and even though only a few miles from England, Welsh was often heard.

branwen · 01-03-2009 3:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well said, I've always considered that the use of Welsh in Wales should an insparation for Irish people who want the Irish language to become part of mainstream life rather than sidelined by most as it is now.
The main reason I often referred to welsh was because I lived in Fflint for a while, and even though only a few miles from England, Welsh was often heard.

What you need to do it artificially create a need for Irish. Create incentives and rewards, but make it fun too.
You could try talking to 'Cymdeithas yr Iaith' who basically rescued Welsh, and continue to push for more rights.
http://cymdeithas.org/english/
Also Cymuned (who are a bit full on) might be able to help too.
http://www.notenglish.com/

Also, 'Tynged yr Iaith' (the Fate of the Language) was a famous speech made by Saunders Lewis in 1962, that kick-started the whole Welsh language revival.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynged_yr_iaith

Hwyl a phob lwc!
Good luck!

wylo · 01-03-2009 4:02pm

Thanks Branwen, great post , and the fact that you mention that there are pro-britain people trying to be dead set against it means you lot had an even harder time than us trying to get it going.
Because we dont have that problem, were just lazy and are put off by it because of the way its thought in school.

It took an American Ex-pat to help make it 'cool' again.

Im in my mid 20s now, I did pass Irish and got a C or something (everone knows pass Irish is peace) of piss. Its only now Im at the stage that I actually want to learn it again properly. I was better at Irish when I was 11 or 12 than I was when I was 19 or 20.

Breaktown · 01-03-2009 4:10pm

By the time I finished primary school, I was almost fluent in Irish. I loved it. Then I went to secondary school and it became all about the exams and not about the language. Then I hated it. I ended up doing ordinary level for leaving cert and now I can barely speak a word. But I'd really like to be able to speak it. I think Irish should be optional at leaving cert and it should be treated as a language and part of our culture rather than something that should be hated.

banshee_bones · 01-03-2009 4:40pm

I think the most emphasis should be put on the spoken word.

The grammar and structure is obviously very important but if they could somehow structure it to be more about the spoken word. I think when most of us think about Irish we think of the leaving cert paper and rigmarole that went with that or our time in the gaeltacht.

Edir: What im referring to is conversational day to day irish, so that it doesnt die out.

wylo · 01-03-2009 5:08pm

Well I know theres no fear of it dying out as such (Irish schools are getting more and more popular with young parents), but Id love to see more promotion for older people as well. I think The Sun recently had a cd or something ???

01-03-2009 5:26pm

wylo wrote: »

Well I know theres no fear of it dying out as such (Irish schools are getting more and more popular with young parents), but Id love to see more promotion for older people as well. I think The Sun recently had a cd or something ???

Most people in my age group (mid 40's) think that I'm wasting my time trying to learn Irish as it's a "complete waste of time" and "is of no use at all".

Out local VEC recently ran a Beginners Irish lessons/conversation course, it was cancelled due to lack of interest, only me and three others applied.

branwen · 01-03-2009 5:29pm

I wouldn't give up just yet.

Ten years ago, Welsh was, where Irish is now. There was a lot of prejudice towards it, nobody liked it, Welsh speakers were treated as another species!
When I was in school, ten years ago, there was only one Welsh secondary school in my area, now there are four. We were called the 'Welshie kids' and people made fun of us and said that Welsh was a dead language so what was the point in speaking it. They taught Welsh as a second language in the English medium schools (like in Ireland I imagine) and the kids hated it. Because it's a really hard language to learn, and they found it boring. Now, because kids are being taught about things like the Welsh Not, and why the language is relevant to them, they appreciate it more. And they've made it more fun.

There has been a lot of opposition over the years, and it was a struggle to get the language to where it is now. There were loads of protests and people have even been to prison to get more rights. The rise of the language has also had a knock on effect on politics too. More people want us to have our more power over our own affairs, as we've got more confidence in our country and who we are. Welsh is a very political issue, and it there's always arguments about it.

What is Irish language TV like? Do you have Irish language soaps?
Our channel, S4C used to be really boring, about farming and stuff. But now the kids' shows are fun, and there are some good shows and documentaries. So people watch it more. And it's good for learners, as all the shows are subtitled.

Also, you'll often see pubs and cafes advertising 'learners hour' where people just get together and practice Welsh. People get together and read poetry and stuff too. Also, well known people are learning Welsh, such as our weather man on the national news, so it's in the publics' consciousness a lot more.
Maybe you could have like, meet-ups where people can just get together and have a laugh but learning Irish at the same time?

Breaktown- I agree with you. That's the reason Welsh was so unpopular. It was all exams and stress, and kids hated it. Now they've changed the way they teach it to be more about culture than exam marks.

I really wouldn't be so hard on yourselves about Irish. Reviving a language is really difficult, and we're not totally there yet.

May I ask a few things?
How come there are Gaeltachts? And what do most people think about them? I'm not that familiar with Irish culture, sorry.
Are there lots of Irish language songs, poems, books? Like folk songs and mythology?

Sorry for the massive posts!

neil_hosey · 01-03-2009 5:59pm

The Gaeltachts are pockets of native irish speaking areas. The number of people living in these areas is Id say below 100,000, and thats probably being generous.

There are thousands of poems, songs etc out there. If your interested have a look at a style of singing called Séan Nós (old style)... Iarla Ó Lionáird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUVn7884a4&feature=related) and Nell Ní Chróinín (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8&feature=related) are too good examples.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

sofia11 · 01-03-2009 6:04pm

I think some the other posts have very valid points here, especially about it not being compulsory past junior cert. Why is it compulsory? It would be interesting if the secondary students could make their own decision at that stage, why not? Is the dept of Ed afraid of what the result might be? It would be interesting. Even though we speak English we speak it with an Irish accent, Australians, New Zealanders, Scottish ....speak English but it doesn't make them English. We still have our music, sports, history which is all part of being Irish too. Perhaps more emphasis on spoken and allowing students to decide for themselves by Junior Cert. Other people have made a good point about the language being forced upon ALL students. If we could have made a decision ourselves we would have nothing to say about the compulsory nature of the irish language.

branwen · 01-03-2009 6:06pm

neil_hosey wrote: »

The Gaeltachts are pockets of native irish speaking areas. The number of people living in these areas is Id say below 100,000, and thats probably being generous.

There are thousands of poems, songs etc out there. If your interested have a look at a style of singing called Séan Nós (old style)... Iarla Ó Lionáird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUVn7884a4&feature=related) and Nell Ní Chróinín (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8&feature=related) are too good examples.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

Lush! Thanks

neil_hosey · 01-03-2009 6:17pm

branwen wrote: »

Lush! Thanks

Thats not to say though that the only place where people speak irish is in the gaeltacht. In most towns in Ireland there is atleast one irish medium school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFRCWg_kOc thats also a good example...

Irish is doing well, but could be doing alot better. The over dependence on learning about poetry and mythology (pros / old short stories) is very difficult in leaving and junior cert, this should nearly be a subject in itself. It turns the irish exam into a memory test.

unreggd · 01-03-2009 7:29pm

The winning answer to the poll is the simple solution

It needs to be thought as a foreign language aka A LANGUAGE YOU DONT ALREADY SPEAK

Im finished school 3 years now and it still does me head in!

Carlotta · 01-03-2009 7:30pm

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

After school, you began to travel around the world discovering different cultures and languages.. but hold on, you're continuously mistaken as an American or British citizen? American aint so bad, but to be mistaken as a British citizen is a bit of a kick in the nuts for a lot of us. It's also a kick in the heart when the majority of foreigners think that Ireland is apart of the UK.. It's a damn shame that, isn't it?

And why do foreigners think that? Because Ireland is an English speaking country, as is Scotland, and therefore due to out close proximity (amongst many other facotrs) we are assumed to be British. It’s a pisser that isn’t it? I’ve since educated and chastised many a Spanish/Italian/French ach mar shampla.. the Dutch and Germans are usually very well clued up on Irish history, and fair play to their education system for that.

Gawd, when I read the first part of the OP's post I got pretty angry!!!!

It was really driven home to me when i was traveling. people were fascinated with the idea we have our own language.
I was explaining the situation to a German guy, telling him how its our language but hardly anyone uses it. He looked at me straight in the eye and said in that matter of fact way only Germans can "Why not?". i really didnt have an answer for him and felt a bit ashamed.

Its sad that a lot of us only realize how great the Irish language is and how tragic it is we can't speak it when we get older (and hence less likely to learn it). The education system is a big part of the governments plan to promote Irish but i think they are beginning to learn they have done more harm than good.

neil_hosey · 01-03-2009 8:27pm

i was in Finland there about a week ago.. and got chattin to a girl at the bar, which turned into a fairly large argument where she was convinced Irish was a dialect of english.

She wouldnt believe me when i told her it wasnt ;/ baffling

Carlotta · 01-03-2009 8:39pm

neil_hosey wrote: »

i was in Finland there about a week ago.. and got chattin to a girl at the bar, which turned into a fairly large argument where she was convinced Irish was a dialect of english.

She wouldnt believe me when i told her it wasnt ;/ baffling

So she knows more about Ireland than an Irish person? I've heard this from people before. Why do people never believe us? Is it the charm, wit and smiling eyes that makes them doubt us!!!!!

neil_hosey · 01-03-2009 8:43pm

Carlotta wrote: »

So she knows more about Ireland than an Irish person? I've heard this from people before. Why do people never believe us? Is it the charm, wit and smiling eyes that makes them doubt us!!!!!

that girl, she was very condescending and very ignorant, i put her in her place though.

LiNgWiStIkZ · 01-03-2009 8:46pm

Gotta love the thread tags:D

Whosbetter? · 01-03-2009 9:57pm

Intresting thread.

Personally, I've always thought that the Irish language thing was the greatest pile of steaming dung that I had to learn in school.

Over 20 years later, I still haven't changed my opinion one little bit.

I'd be all for banning it off the face of the earth.
Only problem with that would be that it would make certain people more determined to revive it.

Best to cut the funding to the bone. Remove it's compulsary status in schools & let the Gealgoers study it, if they want.
Just leave the rest of us alone.

riskydisco · 01-03-2009 10:08pm

You referred to Irish as being 'inferior'. That's a bit insulting and ignorant. It's an integral part of our identity and should be cherished. Living in Dublin, I don't have as many opportunities to speak it as I would like, but whenever I get the chance I am happy to use the 'cupla focal'.

Yes, the government have it so that we have signs and such in both English and Irish, and yes, that costs money, but just to do away with this important element of our culture to save a few bob would be a shame. The government could do a better job with the teaching of the language in schools, but the solution to that lies in trying new approaches or investing more.. not on giving up on it entirely.

Diabhal Beag · 01-03-2009 10:16pm

Its shocking how little funding the Irish language gets and the younger generations suffer because of it.

Whosbetter? · 01-03-2009 10:28pm

Little Shyte wrote: »

Its shocking how little funding the Irish language gets and the younger generations suffer because of it.

On the contrary. Its shocking how MUCH funding it gets & its gettin WORSE all the time.

Dudess · 01-03-2009 10:32pm

I don't think it should be compulsory after Junior Cert, but then again, I don't think any subject should be compulsory after JC.

Whosbetter? · 01-03-2009 10:40pm

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think it should be compulsory after Junior Cert, but then again, I don't think any subject should be compulsory after JC.

Dunno. I think there's a fair case for English & Maths to be compulsary though...

finalfantasist · 01-03-2009 10:44pm

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think it should be compulsory after Junior Cert, but then again, I don't think any subject should be compulsory after JC.

I say make it a subject you can choose to do or not, so that those who want to learn it can and those who don't want to learn it can do something else. I would have loved to have done something other than Irish in the Leaving Cert. But then again, I wasn't any good at Irish.

thebigcheese22 · 01-03-2009 10:49pm

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Dunno. I think there's a fair case for English & Maths to be compulsary though...

Aye I agree 100% - Maths and English are used in all facets of life!

Irish meanwhile.... never ever used it outside school

Although I do hate the kind of people that wanna ban it i.e. snobby D4 types...so I'm stumped!

Mars Bar · 01-03-2009 10:53pm

I don't know why ye are talking about secondary schools and the JC here. It starts in Primary schools, I think there should be one day set a side every week where it is Lá Gaeilge and everything is thought through Irish. That would give a good foundation and there wouldn't be so much hassle and complaining in Secondary school. I mean, every qualified Irish teacher in a Primary school has a decent level of Irish. There wouldn't be any need for extra money to be put into it, except for a couple of more books printed in Irish, no harm in that though if it is going to revive it.

I for one, would love to be fluent in Irish.

Dudess · 02-03-2009 12:30am

Whosbetter? wrote: »

I think there's a fair case for English & Maths to be compulsary though...

For 5th and 6th year?

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Aye I agree 100% - Maths and English are used in all facets of life!

Leaving cert maths and English, hardly. All the maths and English you actually need are covered long, long before the leaving cert. Shakespeare, Jane Austen and geometry etc - these are not integral to life.

Whosbetter? · 02-03-2009 12:46am

Dudess wrote: »

For 5th and 6th year?

Leaving cert maths and English, hardly. All the maths and English you actually need are covered long, long before the leaving cert. Shakespeare, Jane Austen and geometry etc - these are not integral to life.

I think all the Universities in the country might dissagree...

Dudess · 02-03-2009 10:54am

Universities would disagree with me that Leaving Cert maths and English aren't useful for e.g. a person who wants to study German? You appear to be missing my point. I don't think any subject (bar practical ones like a European language and business studies) should be mandatory after Junior Certificate. I think, at that point, a student will be aware of what they like/are good at and should only have to do those subjects - with a view to taking a relevant course. E.g. if someone wants to do music or geography or biology at 3rd level and has no interest in/aptitude for maths/English, what use is studying maths or English to them?

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 11:01am

It's not a question of being usfull. What kinda of dope can't speak their own language.

The education system requires some radical changes..

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:07am

T-K-O wrote: »

It's not a question of being usfull. What kinda of dope can't speak their own language.

1) Do you?

2) It'd be far more widely spoken if it was a live language, hence ""useful" in everyday situations.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:13am

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think any subject (bar practical ones like a European language and business studies)

Now this is daft. Business studies over maths? Whats the point in making money if you can't count it?

Maths and English (our native tongue whether we like it or not) MUST be on the core curriculum. Everything else should be elective (but a European language of choice should also be mandatory)

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 11:18am

vinylbomb wrote: »

1) Do you?

2) It'd be far more widely spoken if it was a live language, hence ""useful" in everyday situations.

1. No
2. If we could speak the language it would useful think of all the fun you could have filling out forms as Gaeilge.

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 11:21am

vinylbomb wrote: »

1) Do you?

2) It'd be far more widely spoken if it was a live language, hence ""useful" in everyday situations.

BTW.

1. Do not ask rhetorical questions, we don't like that around here...

Dudess · 02-03-2009 11:24am

vinylbomb wrote: »

Now this is daft. Business studies over maths? Whats the point in making money if you can't count it?

Again, I'm referring to Leaving Cert maths. Most of us are able to count, add, subtract, multiply, divide LONG before that.

Maths and English (our native tongue whether we like it or not) MUST be on the core curriculum.

Sure... up to Junior Cert.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:25am

T-K-O wrote: »

1. Do not ask rhetorical questions, we don't like that around here...

How was I to know you didn't speak Irish

I barely speak English at the best of times myself

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:29am

Dudess wrote: »

Again, I'm referring to Leaving Cert maths. Most of us are able to count, add, subtract, multiply, divide LONG before that.

Maths is the language we use to understand our world, and universe.
English is the language that we in this country use to describe it.

IMO We are better off being able to comprehend a little, and discuss a little than not at all.

Dudess · 02-03-2009 11:35am

vinylbomb wrote: »

Maths is the language we use to understand our world, and universe.
English is the language that we in this country use to describe it.

IMO We are better off being able to comprehend a little, and discuss a little than not at all.

Exactly. Therefore English and maths being mandatory up to Junior Cert is more than adequate. It used to piss me right off that I had to learn this utterly useless drivel (to me) like co-ordinate geometry, trigonometry, linear programming etc which I knew I would never, ever use - unless I wanted to study mathematics/other maths-related courses.
To say we "need" the above doesn't make sense.
Similar story for a person who's into science and has zero interest in prose and poetry.

Rsaeire · 02-03-2009 12:15pm

Certain subjects should be removed from the curriculum after the Junior Certificate, such as Maths and Irish, as the time spent in secondary school would be best spent on subjects that have relevance to a chosen career or education path. Maths and Irish past the Junior Certificate level, if it is not a requirement for further education, is redundant; they should not be mandatory.

A reform of the current curriculum should be undertaken, not only in Ireland, but across Europe. I cannot understand how people who decide the current curriculum, and who went through the same education path, cannot see or fathom the sheer lunacy of including subjects that will have no direct correlation with what a large majority of people will require once their mandatory education has been completed.

By the government and the department of education listening to the students who are going/have gone through the education system and learning and understanding what their points and opinions are on the curriculum, they will be able to better assist the future students in their education path. In addition, reducing the emphasis on both the Junior and Leaving Certificate examinations will also go towards lessening the unneeded stress students have to endure.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 12:23pm

Dudess wrote: »

Similar story for a person who's into science and has zero interest in prose and poetry.

The difficulty as I see it with this is, where do you draw the line? Basic numeracy is achieved by the time you leave primary school, so do you give kid s of 12 the choice whether or not to study maths? ALL will decline.
Your argument is that you only require the basics to fulfill most professions, as such that leave the vast majority of people without any analytical skills.

The thing with maths is it informs the way that you process information for the rest of your life. What you learn as a kid is vital to your everyday tasks for the rest of your life.

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 12:37pm

Anyway ask yourself this Mr Bomb.

Are you comfortable with the fact the we are a nation that cannot and does not use our own language.

Dudess · 02-03-2009 12:42pm

I'm comfortable with it - English as our first language is hugely advantageous.

vinylbomb wrote: »

The difficulty as I see it with this is, where do you draw the line?

Junior Cert, as I said.

Your argument is that you only require the basics to fulfill most professions, as such that leave the vast majority of people without any analytical skills.

The Junior Cert is not the basics - it gives enough of a grounding to know what you like/dislike and what you are good at/not good at.
Actually where the hell did I say you only require the basics to fulfil most professions? I said you don't need algebra to be able to count, you don't need Shakespeare poetry to be able to read and write. I'm talking about the relevance of Leaving Cert level subjects to everyday life, not professional life. Obviously if you need something for a particular profession, you study it at for the Leaving, then at 3rd level.

The thing with maths is it informs the way that you process information for the rest of your life. What you learn as a kid is vital to your everyday tasks for the rest of your life.

But not Leaving Cert maths - it's utterly irrelevant to everyday tasks.

You appear rather disingenuous.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 12:55pm

Dudess wrote: »

But not Leaving Cert maths - it's utterly irrelevant to everyday tasks.

You appear rather disingenuous.

I think you may have the wrong word there, you're basically saying I know less than I let on? Thats definitely not apparent from my argument.

My point is that its not the specifics of what you learn in geometry or whatever, its that it shapes the way you make decisions throughout your everyday life in ways that you don't notice.

This is kinda getting skewed off topic a bit anyway.

My stance on the Irish thing is: I would love to speak the language, and am very sad that it is dying. Realistically though there is little chance of me learning it, or promoting its greater usage. As for what the OP said, to SUPRESS the language is just plain wrong.

doolox · 02-03-2009 1:03pm

It should be possible to devise a subject out of Maths which takes the essential stuff and make everyone learn it and leave the specialised stuff for their respective subjects.
Example you have applied Maths for the Science students, there should be a business related Maths subject for the commerce stream students.
Maths in my opinion is such a vast subject that many talented students take pass in order to devote their precious time and effort on less demanding subjects at honours level and still get the points.
From what I hear you need to spend double the time to achieve an A1 in maths than in other subjects but I'd say English is also a time consumer.
Modern students, taking things tactically, will devote their time to getting maximum points for their efforts.
Rigourous, demanding and difficult subjects like maths lose out as a result.
On the subject of Irish, it should be possible to replace the dreadful literature element of the language with something more upbeat and modern and concentrate on spoken Irish rather than written and on modern topics etc.
The effort put into Irish by many students is minimal because they concentrate on getting maximum points in their chosen subjects and have no motivation or will to study Irish.
For a vast majority there is a huge cultural disconnect from the language.
Short of kidnapping them and sending them to the Gaeltacht I dont know how you will solve this.
You cannot compare Ireland with Israel or other countries which have re-introduced half-dead languages back into common use. We already have a common language we all speak and which is rapidly becoming a world language in terms of learners( 300 million chinese and 300 million indians) and native speakers (500million).
Unlike the Baltic republics which had similar problems with Russian versus their own native tongues we do not have a large Irish-speaking population to build on. In fact from what I hear about Irish language Masses in the gaeltachtai, they are being run down in favour of English masses and the schools are finding less infants coming into the education system with Irish as their first language, as used to be the case.
What the state needs to do is examine the possibility of devoting more time in school to essential subjects like maths and English and less to cultural luxuries like Irish. Our near neighbours devote more time to maths than we do and their standards in technical fields is higher.
The biggest complaint I used to hear in my RTC student days was the low standard of maths. The lecturers had to waste time coaching us in elementary maths, presumably because of the time wasted in secondary school on other subjects but every teacher will favour his own subject over others so this might not be a valid point.
What we as a nation should ask is can we afford our children to spend 14 years on a subject they can't use at the end and reduce the time available for other more useful subjects?

Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

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