Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

JaysusMacfeck

NOT FOR THE GAEILGE FORUM. I want unbiased answers.

Interested on your views on this.

When I was walking through town today I got a thinkin'. All the public transport systems and street signs with the Irish language, do you think we'd be better off doing away with Irish and enforcing English as the ONLY language in the country?

The majority of us just speak English. Irish is an inferior language (which has been drilled into us by British occupation in Ireland for many a year) perhaps it's time the government bit the bullet and ditched Irish altogether from the constitution. They've made a balls of the education system in regards to the language anyway.

Seeing as the majority of us don't speak Irish (and most of us hate it because of the way it's taught) let's just be done with it altogether; remove the requirement for Irish in schools, place names on signs, etc, etc.

Let's face it, us tax payers are paying a good few cent to keep these Irish language departments alive in the country, and what do we get out of it?

Remove Irish from the education system, remove the Irish language completely from Ireland and let's get on with speaking English. After all, Ireland is just a damaged region of Britain with a few Irish speaking communities in the west. Yeah, Irish was the main language in Ireland not too long ago, but the famine (British genocide) fixed that. And a good job it did too.

So, for those of you that haven't a word of Irish, should we suppress it and be done with it for good? What purpose does it serve our 'country'? Choose your poll choice now!



But hold on, flip the coin for a minute le do thoil.

Yes, the government have made a balls of things with our language particularly with the education system and the curriculum; those that have sat the Leaving Cert will know how bad the Irish curriculum is.. Boring, Ancient, Prehistoric, well out of date? Did I mention ‘horrendously boring’?

So as I'm now on the flip side of the cent coin, let me think, why should the government pump money into the Irish language and why should they continue to protect the Gaeltachts?

Those of you that have studied Irish and have developed respect for it will understand that it is the most poetic and beautiful language to be in existence today. A difficult language, yes, but it’s also one of the oldest languages in Europe.. she's delicate and needs way more attention.

Set aside the abysmal education system fán second. A lot of you (but certainly not all) hated Irish in school, you didn't understand why you had to learn it, you paid no attention to Irish history, you just wanted to get on with life and communicate with your friends in your mother tongue.

After school, you began to travel around the world discovering different cultures and languages.. but hold on, you're continuously mistaken as an American or British citizen? American aint so bad, but to be mistaken as a British citizen is a bit of a kick in the nuts for a lot of us. It's also a kick in the heart when the majority of foreigners think that Ireland is apart of the UK.. It's a damn shame that, isn't it?

And why do foreigners think that? Because Ireland is an English speaking country, as is Scotland, and therefore due to out close proximity (amongst many other facotrs) we are assumed to be British. It’s a pisser that isn’t it? I’ve since educated and chastised many a Spanish/Italian/French ach mar shampla.. the Dutch and Germans are usually very well clued up on Irish history, and fair play to their education system for that.

Unfortuanatley the British themselves, god bless them, are taught a very filtered and cleansed version of history in school. Did you know that the Irish “famine” and ALL the other atrocities against the Irish by the British are completely non-existent in the British curriculum? Keep that in mind the next time an innocent English person visits Ireland, they have absolutely NO clue about the bloodshed in Ireland by the Brits for that past 800 years. They were taught that Ireland was a "troublesome nation" in the British empire for decades, etc, etc. The Scottish however include Irish history in their curriculum, you’d have a very different conversation with them.

Moving on to somthing else, so you’re in Brazil mar shanpla, and how you wished you could speak Irish to your buddy about what that arsehole behind the bar just said, or perhaps you would have liked to have described in detail what your plans were for that sexy wench beside the fish tank; she was eyeing you up! You can’t though can you? You can’t express yourself properly in Irish, your official language. Don’t blame yourself, it’s never too late to learn though. There's no shortage of classes now.

Unfortualtey though the response from a lot of you will be “don’t care”, or “Irish… ****e”.. and it really is a damn shame folks.

So, Bertie? What the shag are you doing to our language? Build it or kill it mate.

Thanks for reading. You’re either anti Irish or Pro English, mayhaps in between for some reason.. but the response from all of my friends is Pro Irish… “but I just can’t speak it!!” I’d assume the same response from a lot of the Irish posse.

Slán Slán agus ciao.

tba

I wish I could speak Irish

Although I wish I could speak Spanish, French, German, Italian, Chinese, Japanese and a multitude of other different languages aswell...

dlofnep

It needs to play more of a part in our lives. Otherwise, we may aswell call ourselves english. Many countries do just fine with two languages, Ireland could too.

Grem

Thats a fantastic argument u have there. Enjoyed reading it. Id love to be able to speak more Irish, can have a conversation in it but have to substitute some words as english which kind of gives the game away if your talking about someone in a foreign country.
Most people in school arent bothered with spending time learning it bacause we practically never use it in day to day life. Which is a shame.
In Australia at the moment and the amount of people who mistake me for a British person is crazy! Its understandable seeing as we both speak similarly but then when you explain they are Irish they still say stupid stuff like "Is it cold over there in the UK". Grrr!

The Irish language should definately NOT be abolished.

mise_me_fein_V2

It should be reformed. I think everyone can remember reading Irish in primary school and not knowing what they were talking about.

I didn't know what ta me meant for 5 or 6 years.

If it was taught like the way the Dutch teach English, I think we'd be fine.

Archeron

A Chara.
Like most other people, I didnt like Irish in school, but I think what I disliked most was the way it was taught. Now, many moons after leaving school, I'm sorry i didnt pay more attention, as I do truly think that Irish is a beautiful language that should be protected and used as much as possible. Nothing makes me smile more that hearing my fellow Paddies using Irish in everyday life, and while it doesnt happen often, it does happen occasionally.

I'd be all for the funding and encouragement 100%, but not for ramming it down peoples throats. I would think that with the increasing multiculturalism in this fine country, that more people will naturally feel inclined to learn the language of their country anyway. Its part of our identity, and even more so now with so many people from all over the world being welcomed here.
As an aside, does anyone know where you can find details of places offering Irish language courses for adults? Or can anyone suggest an alternative way of learning , maybe linguaphone or something?
Go raibh maith agat.

dlofnep

When I was younger, I didn't appreciate Irish. Although I studied honours Irish, I can barely speak a word of it now. Just some very basic stuff. It's a damn shame, because it's only when you get a little older, you learn to really appreciate your culture more. Why is that? I'm not sure..

Red Alert

I got an A1 in honours, but disliked the way it was taught. Emphasis should only be on oral and written (as in say French, where the written is about modern topics). Ditch the literature and leave it either in a separate optional course or let it wait until university.

Oral Slang

I did my whole education through Irish & would recommend it to anyone thats contemplating sending their children to all irish schools..
I'm so glad I am fluent in irish (not that I get any chance to speak it), but I really feel proud that I can speak it if I want to. Any friends I have that can't speak irish usually say they would love to. There should be really more irish evening classes in place, if what I've heard is anything to go by!
Irish has really picked up in recent years in Dublin.. More & more irish playschools are opening, so in turn the irish primary & secondary schools are full to brimming point!
Really hope that when / if I have children I have to opportunity to send them to irish schools. I found leaving 2 languages from such an earlier age, made it easier to learn foreign languages..
As everyone else says, they just need to start teaching irish the way other languages are taught, with fresh ideas & new books!

tba

What way are other languages taught in our fellow EU states exactly?

Just curious as I have no experience of it.

Stephen

Suppress it? Absolutely not. Remove its compulsory status? Yes. Let those who want to learn it do so, and let those who don't, have the freedom to ignore it. Keep dual-language signage and so on... in gaeltacht areas too.

spahndirge

Irish Language Training

finlma

Irish is a beautiful language and should be promoted more. It is being improved at primary school level - bringing in an emphasis on conversational Irish. Thats a huge start.

Its pretty obvious that something is wrong when every Irish person learns the language for 14 years of school but can yet barely hold a conversation.

Kojak

I dont see why Irish should be surpressed - every other language in the E.U. no matter how obscure etc. isn't pressurised into existance.

I agree that it shouldn't be made compulsory. Also the curriculm should be changed - I liked irish spreaking and writing but detested the poetry and short stories.

If there was a 'modern irish' subject for the Leaving involving more spoken and writen irish then I believe it would be more popular.

coffee_cake

No, I don't think it should stop being compulsory. I do think it should be taught properly. Learning all those finicky grammar rules only at LC level is a joke.
A lot of other countries that teaches a language from an early age - the speakers are fluent by 13 or so. When I was in Denmark, the kids around that age had fine English.

Maybe there's a view of Irish as being old fashioned and boring, and brings to mind ros na run. That kinda thing. Maybe they could work on that too.

I did honours and I liked it well enough though its been a few years so I forget a lot...

Dave!

No it shouldn't be suppressed; there should be a massive change in the way it's taught, focusing alot more on oral work and every-day usage, and alot less on poetry and stories. We're not there yet, so let's stop pretending we're as good at Irish as at English, and don't use the English course as a template for the Irish one. Completely change it, knock it down and build it up again from the bottom. And simultaneously, encourage places like post offices, Gardaí, etc., to speak as Gaeilge, thereby giving people an opportunity to start using the cúpla focail in their everyday activities.

Seems like a decent enough plan... Yeah, it'd cost a bit of tax money, but it's worth it in my opinion.

murphaph

It should be removed from all roads signage in English speaking parts of Ireland and the requirement on public transport operators to use it (thanks DeV) should be removed also. For the Miniscule number of people who can only speak Irish, 99.99% of people suffer because of cluttered, awkward signage.

Spend money on it in other ways. Ramming it down our throats by calling the DUTC 'Bus Atha Cliath' has not suddenly created half a million Irish speakers in Dublin.

As for wanting to be differentiated from an english person, well I think that's kind of sad. We have a lot in common with the United Kingdom.

Mmmm_Lemony

I like many others here wish I could speak irish but can't because it was difficult in school to learn. We had a great teacher in primary and I was nearly fluent but when we got to secondary the first three years we had an absolute maniac. If you did your homework he liked you and he was a great teacher if you got on his good side. If you didn't (and I certainly didn't) you struggled. I was eventually moved to pass for the inter and the teacher we had, had no confidence and the class ran riot.

I will definitely be sending my kids to an Irish Speaking School even considering the very high cost. If the government put as much funding into education and in particular the irish language instead of leaky funking tunnels, we would all be speaking irish (the whole nation) and we would be smart enough not to fall for the bull**** tunnel expenses and the crappy road network, and the..... well pretty much everything about this country is fecked because of the idiots that are running the comedy show!!!!

spahndirge wrote:

Irish Language Training

OT - the guy in the film looks like wolverine!

Sleepy

I'd definitely be for removing the language from the Leaving Cert sylabus as a mandatory subject. The opportunity costs of forcing the language on our young people are far too high and what's gained by having the language forced down their throats is of far to low a value to be considered worthwhile continuing with.

Given that the Leaving Cert is pretty much the only determinant in college place allocation in this country, the imposition of Irish as one of a student's seven subjects discriminates against those students that don't have an apptitude for languages.

In the entirety of this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=291582 not one person could make a persuasive argument for the continuation of Irish as a mandatory Leaving Cert subject (unless the point was made towards the end of the thread when certain parties of the debate started using Irish which I'd already pointed out that I couldn't understand. The thread started here in AH before being shunted to the Gaeilge board).

Should Irish be abolished? Even I'd be against this. I like the idea of keeping place names in Irish and having it a reformed Irish curriculum as part of primary and early secondary education.

However, I'm flatly against wasting money by insisting the language be recognised as an official working language of the EU, forcing government departments to squander my taxes on translation services that charge thousands of euros to produce Irish-language versions of official documents that few people ever bother to read in English, never mind requesting the version of the document as Gaeilge (I've come across this in a professional capacity.) I don't believe TG4 should be subsidised by the state as frankly, I can't see why 90% of the country should subsidise the other ten percent's viewing habits when we're selling the television rights to international sporting events to satelite television.

I'm neither pro-Irish nor anti-Irish. Sure, it'd be nice if we could all speak fluent Irish but it'd also be nice if we could all read Latin, play Chopin on the piano, recite Greco-Roman poetry, play bacarat and hurl with the grace of DJ Carey. In any society where there are limited resources we must choose how best to utilise those resources in the manner which will maximise utility for the majority of the members of that society. The Irish language simply doesn't have enough tangible benefits to justify throwing money at it's life-support systems.

So, I've picked option A on your poll. Not because I'd like to ban Irish but because I simply can't support the current misallocation of taxpayers money it receives, nevermind boosting it.

mickymg2003

Its should be encouraged and taught in schools. But it shouldnt be forced on us. If they made it an option after The junior cert.(maybe it is already but it was forced on us in my school)

Sleepy

As an aside to my last post, if anyone can present a sensible, logical argument for the continued state-funding of Irish, I'd be interested to hear it.

I will not accept 'it's worth it in my opinion', 'it's part of our culture' or 'because it differentiates us from the Brits' as a valid argument. Those are subjective viewpoints that would support an individual's decision to pay for their education in the Irish language, not for society to force the language (and pay for it to be forced upon) the population at large.

BTW, JaysusMacFeck, if you genuinely wanted unbiased results in this poll, you'd have given unbiased answering options.

RefulgentGnomon

There is obviously something wrong with the way it's taught when Leaving Certificate students can speak very good German/French after 5 years of learning but can barely string 2 words together 'as Gaeilge' after learning it for circa 13 years.
Be warned about Gaelscoileanna though as I know somebody who has very good Irish from a Gaelscoil but cannot understand a lot of English words (i.e. any word the length of say 'retribution'). This could be a real hindrence if they were interested in a university course such as English Literature or Journalism.

tba

Sleepy wrote:

As an aside to my last post, if anyone can present a sensible, logical argument for the continued state-funding of Irish, I'd be interested to hear it.

A short answer would be, if the Irish goverment did not fund its diffusion into everyday usage who would.

But first I would like to disagree with you on this point

Sleepy wrote:

I will not accept 'it's part of our culture'

A standpoint of this nature would mean that, the literature, art, history, mythology and ideology of Ireland and Irishness is void and defunct, that it is worthless to learn or understand these concepts and ideals.

The Irish language is part of this archetype.

Now I will agree that influences in our culture are passing. Catholicism would be a good example, it popularuty is waning and a forced prayer session would be as repulsive as prohibition of it practice. What seperates The Irish Language from a religion is that we own the Irish language, it is akin to a precious jewel we keep in our pocket but never show because we have an assortment of borrowed gems already around our neck.

What makes our language so much more repulsive than English that it should be thrown away by the masses only to be entertained by them as a passing fancy, the domain of those who see its true beauty.

You say remove the Irish as a compulsory language, I say remove English, remove Maths, remove History and Geography, Physical Education and Art, why trifle with your cull.

Destroy our heritage bit by bit and when your children, and grandchildren become something other than Irish, some mish mash of cultures, trodden together by sky one dramas, harry potter books and american sitcoms, remember all you had to do was show them that gem in your pocket.

Its a family heirloom, treasure it, and show them Its more than just a shiny old rock.

thelordofcheese

I started off thinking about this, and siding with the "follow the Dutch example", and dropping Irish as a compulsory subject for the LC, but, I don't think even that'll do much good.

Really, the success of the Dutch method has a good deal to do with the fact that English is a useful language to learn. People can go abroad and use the language they spend X amount of years learning, business can and often is conducted in English around the world.

What real use do we have for Irish? Aside from feeling special about ourselves, it doesn't really have much of a practical use.

So, I have to vote for A, not that I want it suppressed or anything, but because option B is just a waste of money.

dbnavan

Why the hell would you ban Irish, silly option IMO, promote it or leave it alone, I say promote its use.

Oriel

Don't kick something when it's already down.

ionapaul

As for wanting to be differentiated from an english person, well I think that's kind of sad. We have a lot in common with the United Kingdom.

After living for the first 20 years of my life in Galway city and the next 5+ years in California, when I first moved to Dublin a few years ago I was blown away at how similar Dublin is to any English city. Particularly the way the people speak, slang and so on, suddenly I was someone's 'mate', lads were 'blokes', girls were 'birds'. Is it worth €x million a year in an effort to maintain / support cultural diversit, or should we (particularly those of us in Dublin) just learn to accept we are as much British / American as those in London or Boston?

It's invaluable when abroad to be able to talk with friends in public using your 'secret' language! Particularly when discussing the hot waitress...

Stephen

tba: The only compulsory subjects at leaving cert level are English, Irish and Maths, so your talk about the "cull" is rather inaccurate.
Like it or not, English is the language that the vast majority of the country speaks day to day, and is pretty much necessary to get by. Maths is simlarly useful in varying capacities for all manner of careers.
Irish, however, is spoken as a first language only by a tiny minority. It gets disproportionate amounts of time and money spent on it. Sure its part of our culture and heritage and all, and if you want to learn it, good for you. Just don't try to cram it down everybody's throat.

Terry

i just wish some of the people here could speak english. "aswell" and "alot" are not words.

as for the Irish language, it's one of my biggest regrets in life that i can't speak my native language. a different teaching method may indeed be needed.

i see a lot of complaints here about 'funding for a language that only a few people speak'. if it was taught properly, then maybe more people would be able to speak it. ever thought of that?

tba

Stephen wrote:

tba: The only compulsory subjects at leaving cert level are English, Irish and Maths, so your talk about the "cull" is rather inaccurate.

What about primary school and the education you recieve from your parents, your academic career does not begin in six year, nor shall it end there.

PlayGirl

i think everywhere should just speak english.. how much easier would that be??