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Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?
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Let's face it, if there was a referendum tomorrow, the majority of people are so lax and lazy they'll vote no to removing the language and its funding from mainstream government.
The vast majority of people support Irish solely out of national pride. Just like people who vote Fianna Fáil soley because mammy and daddy did or "Isn't bertie great" or "FF gave us the wonderful economy" etc., ignoring the actual facts and the vast evidence to the contrary.
Maybe this is how the language will survive. The patronage of the ignorant and misinformed unwashed masses?
It is not without historical precedence.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »The numbers (assuming they're accurate, and you haven't provided sources) tell you the result. They don't tell you the cause. Assigning meaning to those numbers means you have to evaluate all the factors which affected use of the language, not just the two you like the sound of best. Since you're refusing to acknowledge the other historical factors, your "conclusion" is flawed and meaningless.
Nonsense. It makes perfect sense that banning the native tongue from being used in schools would have an effect on the language. A reasonable person can take this onboard. You however are not reasonable. PS: Your analogy bored me and I stopped reading it after about 3 words. Also, my conclusion is not flawed and is perfectly sensical.
You seem awfully protective of Britain. Does it hurt you to admit that they had a huge part in the death of the language?Slutmonkey57b wrote: »This is your rebuttal? Really?
I posted it in response to you, didn't I? That's general what a rebuttal is, right? Oh!! I get it. You want to make it appear as if what I said was nonsensical. Very well. Let's press on..Slutmonkey57b wrote: »You claim that National Schools destroyed the language because pupils were pressurised to learn English through the schools, (and that they were under no pressure to use it outside school).
Actually, "forced" is a better word. They were forced to speak English in school, and were educated using the English language. So while Irish was only acquired through immersion, English was acquired through education & immersion. So it makes perfect sense that English would come out as the dominant language, especially given the fact that the famine had already wiped out a great portion of the Irish speakers, which made immersion even harder. Comprende?Slutmonkey57b wrote: »And yet you maintain that, given the same circumstances, with the languages reversed, the "mother" language is not affected at all?
I have already outlined how ridiculous this statement is. It is NOT the same circumstances as English is taught in Gaelscoilenna and English is spoken throughout Ireland, unlike the bilingual situation that children were in in the 1800's WHERE Irish was NOT taught in school. So no sir, they were NOT the same circumstances with the languages reversed. They were completely seperate circumstances.Slutmonkey57b wrote: »This is the most nonsensical level of argument I've ever been witness to.
LOL @ you calling anything nonsensical. :rolleyes:0 -
Actually, "forced" is a better word. They were forced to speak English in school, and were educated using the English language. So while Irish was only acquired through immersion, English was acquired through education & immersion. So it makes perfect sense that English would come out as the dominant language, especially given the fact that the famine had already wiped out a great portion of the Irish speakers, which made immersion even harder. Comprende?
Have a look at the "welsh not" I'm sure something similar was used in Irish schools in the old days. I bit OT but I've heard similar methods are currently being used in certain southern African schools today.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Have a look at the "welsh not" I'm sure something similar was used in Irish schools in the old days. I bit OT but I've heard similar methods are currently being used in certain southern African schools today.
Morals aside, that is an ingenious method of keeping a language down. It encourages the children to turn on each other. I'd say it was very effective in the schools were it was used.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Have a look at the "welsh not" I'm sure something similar was used in Irish schools in the old days. I bit OT but I've heard similar methods are currently being used in certain southern African schools today.
Interesting. Thanks.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Have a look at the "welsh not" I'm sure something similar was used in Irish schools in the old days. I bit OT but I've heard similar methods are currently being used in certain southern African schools today.
Any proof of that?0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Any proof of that?
In Irish schools, someone in the history & heratage forum referred to their (great) grandparants being discouraged from speaking Irish using a "collar".
If you're referring to African schools "encouraging" the use of english only in schools, I only have hearsay.
But did see a channel 4 programme a few years ago where an english family "went back to their roots" to a village in South Africa, all education was in english only and one child was caned for speaking the local language.0 -
Nonsense. It makes perfect sense that banning the native tongue from being used in schools would have an effect on the language. A reasonable person can take this onboard. You however are not reasonable. PS: Your analogy bored me and I stopped reading it after about 3 words. Also, my conclusion is not flawed and is perfectly sensical.
And with that final bout of babbling, contradictory, academically blind, ill-informed, and idiotic bout of self-important gibberish, he makes the Ignore list.
Incidentally, you're the only person on boards I've ever found so monumentally meritless that their entire post output is worth ignoring. Maybe that counts as a source of congratulation for you. In any case, your teachers must be hanging their heads in shame and exasperation if that's the level of thought you're capable of.
The one positive thing to come out of your posts is documentary proof of a personal theory of mine that I raised earlier:
Some Irish people are so desperate to hate the Brits they'll ignore, reverse, or block out actual facts in order to maintain their illusions.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »If you're referring to African schools "encouraging" the use of english only in schools, I only have hearsay.
But did see a channel 4 programme a few years ago where an english family "went back to their roots" to a village in South Africa, all education was in english only and one child was caned for speaking the local language.
I mean in terms of the implication that the same system was in use in Irish schools. In any case, as has already been posted, a lot of the "drop the language" social pressure was actually coming from the Catholic Irish heirarchy. In relation to the South African situation, that's a strange setup for a post-apartheid ANC government to support, although it does mirror the point above that native languages will be suppressed by natives as well as conquerors in the interests of forcing perceived academic or economic progress.0 -
I'll give you 10 points for your arsenal of vocab.. But 0 points for actually offering a rebuttal to my statements. Dolan, best of luck with this one.0
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the irish languege is part of our heritige. we should evan try to talk it fluenty again and have english as a second languege. people died so that we could have the right to keep our languege and to kick the brits out.0
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the irish languege is part of our heritige. we should evan try to talk it fluenty again and have english as a second languege. people died so that we could have the right to keep our languege and to kick the brits out.
Ah now, you've just given him ammo to work with. We were doing so well too.
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i said science, (got slightly paranoid there.)Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Errr.... Maybe it was when you stated "more of an engineer, me" in a previous post.
Would you agree the structure of teaching for irish differs to that of a subject like math etc? Irish has more complicated tenses etc than that of french or spanish. Maybe the teachers themselves are a product of this shoddy structure ?Why is poor performance in Irish blamed on the structure of the teaching, when poor performance in other subjects is blamed on individual competence?0 -
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the irish languege is part of our heritige. we should evan try to talk it fluenty again and have english as a second languege. people died so that we could have the right to keep our languege and to kick the brits out.
That's it.
I'm going to make it my mission in life to erradicate irish from the face of the earth, just to punish you for that cretinous post.
yes, i am that petty.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »I mean in terms of the implication that the same system was in use in Irish schools. In any case, as has already been posted, a lot of the "drop the language" social pressure was actually coming from the Catholic Irish heirarchy. In relation to the South African situation, that's a strange setup for a post-apartheid ANC government to support, although it does mirror the point above that native languages will be suppressed by natives as well as conquerors in the interests of forcing perceived academic or economic progress.
Put simply, children who are beaten for using the wrong language in school are likely to refrain from using that language outside of school when talking to their school mates. With parants & church and others also supporting the use of english, it's little wonder that a language dies.
[speculation]
The uneducated poor didn't have these pressures and continued to use Irish, therefore the language was associated with illitracy etc, further reducing it's status amongst the population.
[/speculation]0 -
Slutmonkey57b, dlofnep: Kindly quit the bitching and ignore each other from here on, umkay?0
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I thought I read somewhere that the ban was lifted in 1871? I also believe the church discontinued their active discouragement of the language shortly afterwards?It is NOT the same circumstances as English is taught in Gaelscoilenna and English is spoken throughout Ireland, unlike the bilingual situation that children were in in the 1800's WHERE Irish was NOT taught in school.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Put simply, children who are beaten for using the wrong language in school are likely to refrain from using that language outside of school when talking to their school mates. With parants & church and others also supporting the use of english, it's little wonder that a language dies.
Corporal punishment being a cornerstone of education in those days, I'm not sure that that can be construed as evidence of a government plot against the language. Coupled with the fact that the National Schools were administrated and run by parish authorities, it also points to peer pressure rather than government pressure being the defining factor.[speculation]
The uneducated poor didn't have these pressures and continued to use Irish, therefore the language was associated with illitracy etc, further reducing it's status amongst the population.
[/speculation]
That's a good point, and would have exacerbated the effect of the efforts of people who were attempting to marginalise it, although it might be difficult to quantify to what extent the poor were free from the influence (particularly of) the church.0 -
ExoduS 18.11 wrote: »Would you agree the structure of teaching for irish differs to that of a subject like math etc? Irish has more complicated tenses etc than that of french or spanish. Maybe the teachers themselves are a product of this shoddy structure ?
The structure of language teaching is always going to be different from other more technical subjects (unless you're becoming a linguist). As to the difficulty of learning something like tenses in Irish, given that students are learning languages from a base of English, which has effectively no rigid tense structure to speak of, the difference between Irish and Continental/Latin languages isn't that significant. Irish if anything has a massive advantage in teaching structure over the likes of French/German/Spanish which we start in secondary - Irish is taught from day 1, at an age where children pick up language very quickly. It is also given the opportunity to immerse itself around children in Primary when they're learning other subjects. So while Irish does have a different teaching structure to other subjects, I don't agree at all that it is an inferior structure - on the contrary, if other subjects were taught as long, as comprehensively, and with the same sort of funding Irish gets, we'd be much better off.
Fundamentally, the Irish language supporters have had effective control over the teaching structure in our schools for almost 100 years now. Billions have been pushed into it. Yet the language still fails. The success of the gaelscoils in modern times is pushed far more by their increased funding and lower class sizes, which are more desirable for middle-class parents than by the advantages that learning through Irish gives the pupils in their studies.0 -
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Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Corporal punishment being a cornerstone of education in those days, I'm not sure that that can be construed as evidence of a government plot against the language. Coupled with the fact that the National Schools were administrated and run by parish authorities, it also points to peer pressure rather than government pressure being the defining factor.
Fair comment, I was just referring to the education system in isolation. The government never really had an education policy until the late 1860's anyway.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »The structure of language teaching is always going to be different from other more technical subjects (unless you're becoming a linguist). As to the difficulty of learning something like tenses in Irish, given that students are learning languages from a base of English, which has effectively no rigid tense structure to speak of, the difference between Irish and Continental/Latin languages isn't that significant. Irish if anything has a massive advantage in teaching structure over the likes of French/German/Spanish which we start in secondary - Irish is taught from day 1, at an age where children pick up language very quickly. It is also given the opportunity to immerse itself around children in Primary when they're learning other subjects. So while Irish does have a different teaching structure to other subjects, I don't agree at all that it is an inferior structure - on the contrary, if other subjects were taught as long, as comprehensively, and with the same sort of funding Irish gets, we'd be much better off.
Fundamentally, the Irish language supporters have had effective control over the teaching structure in our schools for almost 100 years now. Billions have been pushed into it. Yet the language still fails. The success of the gaelscoils in modern times is pushed far more by their increased funding and lower class sizes, which are more desirable for middle-class parents than by the advantages that learning through Irish gives the pupils in their studies.
I wonder, in a non-arguementative way, why the language still fails? We pump all this money in , and no real result? Cant be just students lack of ability?0 -
The language fails, in my opinion, for a mixture of several reasons:
1) It's got a reputation as a horrible language. Whether you think that's a result of years of negative propaganda or not, there are people who simply hate the sound, sight and structure of it. Maybe they're wrong, but that's still their opinion. And in many ways it's a less enjoyable, rich, or interesting experience than English. (see below)
2) Its most vocal supporters have tended towards the divisive, xenophobic, "You're not a true Irishman unless you speak the language", "It's part of your heritage" type of commentary. This causes some people to react with "Who the **** are you to decide who's Irish and what my heritage is?" who might otherwise be on the fence. Even in younger circles of Irish speakers, you can see echoes of this when you ask them why they enjoy the language and they respond with "When I'm on holiday/in the pub I can talk about people with my mates without them knowing what I'm saying." That's a disturbing quality to want to get out of a language. This is a trait of "Irishness" that crops up in a lot of other facets of life, although there's a common thread to be found that people with this attitude to the language carry it through to other pastimes (GAA) and vice versa. Appearing to be different is more important than whether or not your difference has any merit (see emo's).
3) The language is tied fairly strongly to "Republicans", who some see as nothing more than scumbags, terrorists, or criminals. This is another case of one clique of society "claiming" the language as their own and thereby alienating large groups who find them distateful.
4) English is the dominant language for a reason - it's flexible, easy to start learning but hard to master, descriptive, prolix and inventive. It's an enjoyable language to use. Irish not only has to compete against this to gain traction, it also has to compete with the other secondary languages of the world for our attention. As the world grows smaller, knowing Irish has less and less of a benefit and busy people have to make decisions as to what deserves their attention. The same is true of schoolchildren.
5) Irish has been a language that has needed to be forced on people for too long. Languages live and die on their own two feet, and we have gained and lost thousands over history. Some people see this as some sort of debasement of our ancestors, but there are few occasions where the loss of a language really has a significant lasting impact. Trying to stamp out a language rarely works, and neither does trying to prop one up. Like a sweaty greasy haired nerd at a disco, Irish is desperate, trying too hard, faintly smelly, and isn't going to get anywhere unless it can provide its own self confidence.
6) Billions have been spent, and hundreds of millions more are spent every year propping up the language. People have spent decades seeing their hospitals, schools, infrastructure, police service crumble around them, while obscene quantities of money have been spent on a language whose supporters claim on a regular basis is a perfectly valid, vibrant, living language. If that were the case, it doesn't need all that support. Setting up TG4 was a perfect example - a massive overspend to service a tiny proportion of the population, in an exercise that comes off as a cynical attempt to twist the figures and make it look like the language is more popular than it actually is (stick on films and football and wave the ratings in the naysayer's faces). Don't underestimate the amount of resentment this causes.
7) Some people just don't want to speak it, never did, and never will.
Fundamentally, none of the above contain the whole truth, nor will removing the problems result in the resurgence of the language. The truth is that if any language is to succeed, people have to want to speak it. They have to get something out of it. Language isn't something you can force onto people (see Esperanto) or force out of people (see Welsh). If they don't get something back out of using the language, they won't use it.0 -
You don't need to be a red blooded Republican to support promoting the language. Dressing it up with this rhetoric does the cause no favours. So with single minded solidarity in pursuit of our mutual goal ... STFU.the irish languege is part of our heritige. we should evan try to talk it fluenty again and have english as a second languege. people died so that we could have the right to keep our languege and to kick the brits out.0 -
I thought I read somewhere that the ban was lifted in 1871? I also believe the church discontinued their active discouragement of the language shortly afterwards?
The damage had already been done. An entire generation, or even 2 generations of kids had gone through school being taught through the medium of English, combined with the damage that the famine had done to the language - it was enough to destroy any hope for a bilingual Ireland. Believe me, 40 years is long enough when a famine has wiped out the better part of your gaelic speaking population.0 -
Also one more thing I'd like to address, as a Republican.
As a Republican, I'd take dispute to being labelled a scumbag, terrorist or criminal. I am neither of the above. Infact, I organised a language group in my city and have kept politics out of it from day 1. It is quite the opposite of claiming the language as anyones, I have done the opposite - and opened the language up for anyone interested by keeping politics out of it, no matter what your beliefs were. It's also the same reason why I am opening up a seperate Gaeilge group in college, despite being part of Ógra - to which I could run Gaeilge nights through. Further proof that I have kept politics out of the language.
I don't believe the language is tied in with Republicanism. I think that many Republicans promote and use the language and rightfully so. And every single one of them do so, not because they want to make a point - but because they enjoy the language. They enjoy learning it and using it. Nationally run trips to a gaeltacht, or other excursions are interesting and fun - and people genuinely just have a good craic. What's wrong with that? That is why young Republicans today are involved in the language.0 -
The damage had already been done. An entire generation, or even 2 generations of kids had gone through school being taught through the medium of English, combined with the damage that the famine had done to the language - it was enough to destroy any hope for a bilingual Ireland.
There's no disputing that the language was marginalised in the 19th century, but for most of the 20th century (not so) serious efforts have been made to revive it, which have failed!
For most Irish speakers (outside the Gaeltacht & education system) the language is just a "hobby", there's no escaping that fact!
For a language to be accepted by the general public it needs a purpose, when was the last time you went to a shop and ordered what you wanted "as gaeilge" or bought a ticket etc.
If the government were really serious of making Irish the principal language they would use in the Dáil, enforce its use within the civil service and use it when dealing with the public, after all that is how english was established in the firstplace.
Had that been done when the state was established the principal language here now would be Irish!
You'd be surprised how quickly foreign "benifit tourists" would learn it if they needed it to claim the dole etc.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »If the government were really serious of making Irish the principal language they would use in the Dáil, enforce its use within the civil service and use it when dealing with the public, after all that is how english was established in the firstplace.
Had that been done when the state was established the principal language here now would be Irish!
You'd be surprised how quickly foreign "benifit tourists" would learn it if they needed it to claim the dole etc.
Thats a very good point. It starts at the top to enforce something and let it be followed.
Damn, i went through 13 years of Irish in school and all i can string together in a sentence is 'doscail an doras'!
And i do wish deep down i am able to speak it. I know lots who resented the language in school including myself and regret not been able to speak it after leaving school.
Its an indictment on the education system that we cannot speak it when we can speak French or German way better.:mad:0 -
Damn, i went through 13 years of Irish in school and all i can string together in a sentence is 'doscail an doras'!
Its an indictment on the education system that we cannot speak it when we can speak French or German way better.:mad:
No it isn't. If you spent 13 years learning it and still can't manage any more than 'doscail an doras' then you clearly weren't trying very hard.
Personally I have mixed feelings on this issue. While in some ways it's nice to preserve our heritage, which our language is an inextricable part of, Irish as a language has outlasted it's usefulness. Languages come and go, they evolve and some die along the way. That's just how it goes.
I read somewhere a while back that something like 90% of all languages in existence are nearing extinction, though many of these are ancient tribal languages where very few people now speak them. There's one ancient language that was discovered in Brazil (I think) and it doesn't even have a written form, only spoken. It's all but gone now.
I agree with keeping it alive up to a point, but not to the extent that we're keeping a braindead patient alive on a respirator just for the sake of it. If it ever got to that stage I'd say just let it go.
The European Union spends millions of euros every year translating documents into Irish and Welsh and other minority languages, even though the natives of these countries already speak English or some other mainstream language. This makes no sense at all.0 -
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Slutmonkey57b wrote: »The language fails, in my opinion, for a mixture of several reasons:
1) It's got a reputation as a horrible language. Whether you think that's a result of years of negative propaganda or not, there are people who simply hate the sound, sight and structure of it. Maybe they're wrong, but that's still their opinion. And in many ways it's a less enjoyable, rich, or interesting experience than English. (see below)
2) Its most vocal supporters have tended towards the divisive, xenophobic, "You're not a true Irishman unless you speak the language", "It's part of your heritage" type of commentary. This causes some people to react with "Who the **** are you to decide who's Irish and what my heritage is?" who might otherwise be on the fence. Even in younger circles of Irish speakers, you can see echoes of this when you ask them why they enjoy the language and they respond with "When I'm on holiday/in the pub I can talk about people with my mates without them knowing what I'm saying." That's a disturbing quality to want to get out of a language. This is a trait of "Irishness" that crops up in a lot of other facets of life, although there's a common thread to be found that people with this attitude to the language carry it through to other pastimes (GAA) and vice versa. Appearing to be different is more important than whether or not your difference has any merit (see emo's).
3) The language is tied fairly strongly to "Republicans", who some see as nothing more than scumbags, terrorists, or criminals. This is another case of one clique of society "claiming" the language as their own and thereby alienating large groups who find them distateful.
4) English is the dominant language for a reason - it's flexible, easy to start learning but hard to master, descriptive, prolix and inventive. It's an enjoyable language to use. Irish not only has to compete against this to gain traction, it also has to compete with the other secondary languages of the world for our attention. As the world grows smaller, knowing Irish has less and less of a benefit and busy people have to make decisions as to what deserves their attention. The same is true of schoolchildren.
5) Irish has been a language that has needed to be forced on people for too long. Languages live and die on their own two feet, and we have gained and lost thousands over history. Some people see this as some sort of debasement of our ancestors, but there are few occasions where the loss of a language really has a significant lasting impact. Trying to stamp out a language rarely works, and neither does trying to prop one up. Like a sweaty greasy haired nerd at a disco, Irish is desperate, trying too hard, faintly smelly, and isn't going to get anywhere unless it can provide its own self confidence.
6) Billions have been spent, and hundreds of millions more are spent every year propping up the language. People have spent decades seeing their hospitals, schools, infrastructure, police service crumble around them, while obscene quantities of money have been spent on a language whose supporters claim on a regular basis is a perfectly valid, vibrant, living language. If that were the case, it doesn't need all that support. Setting up TG4 was a perfect example - a massive overspend to service a tiny proportion of the population, in an exercise that comes off as a cynical attempt to twist the figures and make it look like the language is more popular than it actually is (stick on films and football and wave the ratings in the naysayer's faces). Don't underestimate the amount of resentment this causes.
7) Some people just don't want to speak it, never did, and never will.
Fundamentally, none of the above contain the whole truth, nor will removing the problems result in the resurgence of the language. The truth is that if any language is to succeed, people have to want to speak it. They have to get something out of it. Language isn't something you can force onto people (see Esperanto) or force out of people (see Welsh). If they don't get something back out of using the language, they won't use it.
I would add two more reasons why the language has struggled...
1) The different dialects. Irish speakers have told me they can have a hard time understanding another Irish speaker who is speaking a different dialect. One guy told me how one year he attended some kind of boating festival/regatta where there were Irish speakers from all over the country. But they all spoke mostly in English because they had difficulty understanding each other. Not sure how you fix that. It is what it is. But such practice cannot be good for the long term survival of the language.
2) This is not easy to explain, but I'll try. I can say a few expressions in Irish, having learned from books and tapes, etc. Yet whenever I have visited the Gaeltachts, I have sensed a distinct reluctance by the local Irish speaking population to embrace me. I felt very much like an outsider and was made to feel that way. And I thought...'Hey, wait a minute...here I am making an effort...and you are giving me the cold shoulder. I may as well not bother and just speak English'. This is insular and, again, it cannot be good for the long term survival of the language. This is in stark contrast to if you go to France or Spain and you make an effort to converse in their tongue. They are happy and excited. They engage you further. They congratulate you and thank you for making an attempt, and you feel good for having done so.0
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