Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

Carlotta · 01-03-2009 8:39pm

neil_hosey wrote: »

i was in Finland there about a week ago.. and got chattin to a girl at the bar, which turned into a fairly large argument where she was convinced Irish was a dialect of english.

She wouldnt believe me when i told her it wasnt ;/ baffling

So she knows more about Ireland than an Irish person? I've heard this from people before. Why do people never believe us? Is it the charm, wit and smiling eyes that makes them doubt us!!!!!

neil_hosey · 01-03-2009 8:43pm

Carlotta wrote: »

So she knows more about Ireland than an Irish person? I've heard this from people before. Why do people never believe us? Is it the charm, wit and smiling eyes that makes them doubt us!!!!!

that girl, she was very condescending and very ignorant, i put her in her place though.

LiNgWiStIkZ · 01-03-2009 8:46pm

Gotta love the thread tags:D

Whosbetter? · 01-03-2009 9:57pm

Intresting thread.

Personally, I've always thought that the Irish language thing was the greatest pile of steaming dung that I had to learn in school.

Over 20 years later, I still haven't changed my opinion one little bit.

I'd be all for banning it off the face of the earth.
Only problem with that would be that it would make certain people more determined to revive it.

Best to cut the funding to the bone. Remove it's compulsary status in schools & let the Gealgoers study it, if they want.
Just leave the rest of us alone.

riskydisco · 01-03-2009 10:08pm

You referred to Irish as being 'inferior'. That's a bit insulting and ignorant. It's an integral part of our identity and should be cherished. Living in Dublin, I don't have as many opportunities to speak it as I would like, but whenever I get the chance I am happy to use the 'cupla focal'.

Yes, the government have it so that we have signs and such in both English and Irish, and yes, that costs money, but just to do away with this important element of our culture to save a few bob would be a shame. The government could do a better job with the teaching of the language in schools, but the solution to that lies in trying new approaches or investing more.. not on giving up on it entirely.

Diabhal Beag · 01-03-2009 10:16pm

Its shocking how little funding the Irish language gets and the younger generations suffer because of it.

Whosbetter? · 01-03-2009 10:28pm

Little Shyte wrote: »

Its shocking how little funding the Irish language gets and the younger generations suffer because of it.

On the contrary. Its shocking how MUCH funding it gets & its gettin WORSE all the time.

Dudess · 01-03-2009 10:32pm

I don't think it should be compulsory after Junior Cert, but then again, I don't think any subject should be compulsory after JC.

Whosbetter? · 01-03-2009 10:40pm

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think it should be compulsory after Junior Cert, but then again, I don't think any subject should be compulsory after JC.

Dunno. I think there's a fair case for English & Maths to be compulsary though...

finalfantasist · 01-03-2009 10:44pm

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think it should be compulsory after Junior Cert, but then again, I don't think any subject should be compulsory after JC.

I say make it a subject you can choose to do or not, so that those who want to learn it can and those who don't want to learn it can do something else. I would have loved to have done something other than Irish in the Leaving Cert. But then again, I wasn't any good at Irish.

thebigcheese22 · 01-03-2009 10:49pm

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Dunno. I think there's a fair case for English & Maths to be compulsary though...

Aye I agree 100% - Maths and English are used in all facets of life!

Irish meanwhile.... never ever used it outside school

Although I do hate the kind of people that wanna ban it i.e. snobby D4 types...so I'm stumped!

Mars Bar · 01-03-2009 10:53pm

I don't know why ye are talking about secondary schools and the JC here. It starts in Primary schools, I think there should be one day set a side every week where it is Lá Gaeilge and everything is thought through Irish. That would give a good foundation and there wouldn't be so much hassle and complaining in Secondary school. I mean, every qualified Irish teacher in a Primary school has a decent level of Irish. There wouldn't be any need for extra money to be put into it, except for a couple of more books printed in Irish, no harm in that though if it is going to revive it.

I for one, would love to be fluent in Irish.

Dudess · 02-03-2009 12:30am

Whosbetter? wrote: »

I think there's a fair case for English & Maths to be compulsary though...

For 5th and 6th year?

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Aye I agree 100% - Maths and English are used in all facets of life!

Leaving cert maths and English, hardly. All the maths and English you actually need are covered long, long before the leaving cert. Shakespeare, Jane Austen and geometry etc - these are not integral to life.

Whosbetter? · 02-03-2009 12:46am

Dudess wrote: »

For 5th and 6th year?

Leaving cert maths and English, hardly. All the maths and English you actually need are covered long, long before the leaving cert. Shakespeare, Jane Austen and geometry etc - these are not integral to life.

I think all the Universities in the country might dissagree...

Dudess · 02-03-2009 10:54am

Universities would disagree with me that Leaving Cert maths and English aren't useful for e.g. a person who wants to study German? You appear to be missing my point. I don't think any subject (bar practical ones like a European language and business studies) should be mandatory after Junior Certificate. I think, at that point, a student will be aware of what they like/are good at and should only have to do those subjects - with a view to taking a relevant course. E.g. if someone wants to do music or geography or biology at 3rd level and has no interest in/aptitude for maths/English, what use is studying maths or English to them?

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 11:01am

It's not a question of being usfull. What kinda of dope can't speak their own language.

The education system requires some radical changes..

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:07am

T-K-O wrote: »

It's not a question of being usfull. What kinda of dope can't speak their own language.

1) Do you?

2) It'd be far more widely spoken if it was a live language, hence ""useful" in everyday situations.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:13am

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think any subject (bar practical ones like a European language and business studies)

Now this is daft. Business studies over maths? Whats the point in making money if you can't count it?

Maths and English (our native tongue whether we like it or not) MUST be on the core curriculum. Everything else should be elective (but a European language of choice should also be mandatory)

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 11:18am

vinylbomb wrote: »

1) Do you?

2) It'd be far more widely spoken if it was a live language, hence ""useful" in everyday situations.

1. No
2. If we could speak the language it would useful think of all the fun you could have filling out forms as Gaeilge.

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 11:21am

vinylbomb wrote: »

1) Do you?

2) It'd be far more widely spoken if it was a live language, hence ""useful" in everyday situations.

BTW.

1. Do not ask rhetorical questions, we don't like that around here...

Dudess · 02-03-2009 11:24am

vinylbomb wrote: »

Now this is daft. Business studies over maths? Whats the point in making money if you can't count it?

Again, I'm referring to Leaving Cert maths. Most of us are able to count, add, subtract, multiply, divide LONG before that.

Maths and English (our native tongue whether we like it or not) MUST be on the core curriculum.

Sure... up to Junior Cert.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:25am

T-K-O wrote: »

1. Do not ask rhetorical questions, we don't like that around here...

How was I to know you didn't speak Irish

I barely speak English at the best of times myself

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 11:29am

Dudess wrote: »

Again, I'm referring to Leaving Cert maths. Most of us are able to count, add, subtract, multiply, divide LONG before that.

Maths is the language we use to understand our world, and universe.
English is the language that we in this country use to describe it.

IMO We are better off being able to comprehend a little, and discuss a little than not at all.

Dudess · 02-03-2009 11:35am

vinylbomb wrote: »

Maths is the language we use to understand our world, and universe.
English is the language that we in this country use to describe it.

IMO We are better off being able to comprehend a little, and discuss a little than not at all.

Exactly. Therefore English and maths being mandatory up to Junior Cert is more than adequate. It used to piss me right off that I had to learn this utterly useless drivel (to me) like co-ordinate geometry, trigonometry, linear programming etc which I knew I would never, ever use - unless I wanted to study mathematics/other maths-related courses.
To say we "need" the above doesn't make sense.
Similar story for a person who's into science and has zero interest in prose and poetry.

Rsaeire · 02-03-2009 12:15pm

Certain subjects should be removed from the curriculum after the Junior Certificate, such as Maths and Irish, as the time spent in secondary school would be best spent on subjects that have relevance to a chosen career or education path. Maths and Irish past the Junior Certificate level, if it is not a requirement for further education, is redundant; they should not be mandatory.

A reform of the current curriculum should be undertaken, not only in Ireland, but across Europe. I cannot understand how people who decide the current curriculum, and who went through the same education path, cannot see or fathom the sheer lunacy of including subjects that will have no direct correlation with what a large majority of people will require once their mandatory education has been completed.

By the government and the department of education listening to the students who are going/have gone through the education system and learning and understanding what their points and opinions are on the curriculum, they will be able to better assist the future students in their education path. In addition, reducing the emphasis on both the Junior and Leaving Certificate examinations will also go towards lessening the unneeded stress students have to endure.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 12:23pm

Dudess wrote: »

Similar story for a person who's into science and has zero interest in prose and poetry.

The difficulty as I see it with this is, where do you draw the line? Basic numeracy is achieved by the time you leave primary school, so do you give kid s of 12 the choice whether or not to study maths? ALL will decline.
Your argument is that you only require the basics to fulfill most professions, as such that leave the vast majority of people without any analytical skills.

The thing with maths is it informs the way that you process information for the rest of your life. What you learn as a kid is vital to your everyday tasks for the rest of your life.

T-K-O · 02-03-2009 12:37pm

Anyway ask yourself this Mr Bomb.

Are you comfortable with the fact the we are a nation that cannot and does not use our own language.

Dudess · 02-03-2009 12:42pm

I'm comfortable with it - English as our first language is hugely advantageous.

vinylbomb wrote: »

The difficulty as I see it with this is, where do you draw the line?

Junior Cert, as I said.

Your argument is that you only require the basics to fulfill most professions, as such that leave the vast majority of people without any analytical skills.

The Junior Cert is not the basics - it gives enough of a grounding to know what you like/dislike and what you are good at/not good at.
Actually where the hell did I say you only require the basics to fulfil most professions? I said you don't need algebra to be able to count, you don't need Shakespeare poetry to be able to read and write. I'm talking about the relevance of Leaving Cert level subjects to everyday life, not professional life. Obviously if you need something for a particular profession, you study it at for the Leaving, then at 3rd level.

The thing with maths is it informs the way that you process information for the rest of your life. What you learn as a kid is vital to your everyday tasks for the rest of your life.

But not Leaving Cert maths - it's utterly irrelevant to everyday tasks.

You appear rather disingenuous.

vinylbomb · 02-03-2009 12:55pm

Dudess wrote: »

But not Leaving Cert maths - it's utterly irrelevant to everyday tasks.

You appear rather disingenuous.

I think you may have the wrong word there, you're basically saying I know less than I let on? Thats definitely not apparent from my argument.

My point is that its not the specifics of what you learn in geometry or whatever, its that it shapes the way you make decisions throughout your everyday life in ways that you don't notice.

This is kinda getting skewed off topic a bit anyway.

My stance on the Irish thing is: I would love to speak the language, and am very sad that it is dying. Realistically though there is little chance of me learning it, or promoting its greater usage. As for what the OP said, to SUPRESS the language is just plain wrong.

doolox · 02-03-2009 1:03pm

It should be possible to devise a subject out of Maths which takes the essential stuff and make everyone learn it and leave the specialised stuff for their respective subjects.
Example you have applied Maths for the Science students, there should be a business related Maths subject for the commerce stream students.
Maths in my opinion is such a vast subject that many talented students take pass in order to devote their precious time and effort on less demanding subjects at honours level and still get the points.
From what I hear you need to spend double the time to achieve an A1 in maths than in other subjects but I'd say English is also a time consumer.
Modern students, taking things tactically, will devote their time to getting maximum points for their efforts.
Rigourous, demanding and difficult subjects like maths lose out as a result.
On the subject of Irish, it should be possible to replace the dreadful literature element of the language with something more upbeat and modern and concentrate on spoken Irish rather than written and on modern topics etc.
The effort put into Irish by many students is minimal because they concentrate on getting maximum points in their chosen subjects and have no motivation or will to study Irish.
For a vast majority there is a huge cultural disconnect from the language.
Short of kidnapping them and sending them to the Gaeltacht I dont know how you will solve this.
You cannot compare Ireland with Israel or other countries which have re-introduced half-dead languages back into common use. We already have a common language we all speak and which is rapidly becoming a world language in terms of learners( 300 million chinese and 300 million indians) and native speakers (500million).
Unlike the Baltic republics which had similar problems with Russian versus their own native tongues we do not have a large Irish-speaking population to build on. In fact from what I hear about Irish language Masses in the gaeltachtai, they are being run down in favour of English masses and the schools are finding less infants coming into the education system with Irish as their first language, as used to be the case.
What the state needs to do is examine the possibility of devoting more time in school to essential subjects like maths and English and less to cultural luxuries like Irish. Our near neighbours devote more time to maths than we do and their standards in technical fields is higher.
The biggest complaint I used to hear in my RTC student days was the low standard of maths. The lecturers had to waste time coaching us in elementary maths, presumably because of the time wasted in secondary school on other subjects but every teacher will favour his own subject over others so this might not be a valid point.
What we as a nation should ask is can we afford our children to spend 14 years on a subject they can't use at the end and reduce the time available for other more useful subjects?

Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

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