Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

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I resented my Irish teachers calling me by the Irish version of my name. Teaching the language is one thing, but changing people's names is quite another.

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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I resented my Irish teachers calling me by the Irish version of my name. Teaching the language is one thing, but changing people's names is quite another.

Have to agree with you there, my son is named Jack not séan (John) but that is the name the Irish teacher had "put on him" in school.

I know he has an anglicised (english) name but please let him use it; he may like Irish more if he could use his own name!

Ace7

Ace7 wrote: »

I would add two more reasons why the language has struggled...

1) The different dialects. Irish speakers have told me they can have a hard time understanding another Irish speaker who is speaking a different dialect. One guy told me how one year he attended some kind of boating festival/regatta where there were Irish speakers from all over the country. But they all spoke mostly in English because they had difficulty understanding each other. Not sure how you fix that. It is what it is. But such practice cannot be good for the long term survival of the language.

My understanding it that there has been an attempt to teach a "standard national" version of Irish in school, this is a combinatiion of the three dialects that remain in current use (it is certainly the version I am currently trying to learn!). Outside the Gaelteachta the version of Irish spoke is (i Believe) this "school" Irish. I'm sure someone will confirm/deny or add to this.

Ace7

Ace7 wrote: »

2) This is not easy to explain, but I'll try. I can say a few expressions in Irish, having learned from books and tapes, etc. Yet whenever I have visited the Gaeltachts, I have sensed a distinct reluctance by the local Irish speaking population to embrace me. I felt very much like an outsider and was made to feel that way. And I thought...'Hey, wait a minute...here I am making an effort...and you are giving me the cold shoulder. I may as well not bother and just speak English'. This is insular and, again, it cannot be good for the long term survival of the language. This is in stark contrast to if you go to France or Spain and you make an effort to converse in their tongue. They are happy and excited. They engage you further. They congratulate you and thank you for making an attempt, and you feel good for having done so.

The sign may say Gaeltacht, but the Irish speaking population is less than 70% in those areas, chances are you met with the 30% that don't speak Irish.

Ace7

Deleted User wrote: »

The sign may say Gaeltacht, but the Irish speaking population is less than 70% in those areas, chances are you met with the 30% that don't speak Irish.

No, not at all. They were Irish speakers alright...and I was attempting to converse in the same. But I wasn't welcomed, I was looked down upon, excluded, or however else you want to characterize it.

And I say again, this is in stark contrast to other countries I have visited when trying to talk in the local tongue.

Are you shocked or surprised? Or perhaps could you see how that could happen? Be honest...there is something to what I'm saying, isn't there?

I was left with the impression that Irish speakers are reluctant to really go out of their way to help you learn it (which to me is like signing its death warrant), but yet they still want the government to spend money and prop it up to help ensure its survival.

I came away thinking 'What exactly is it that you want then?'. Do you want to keep it as some sort of 'elitist' language spoken by a proud and select few? Or do you want the language to grow and will you do your part to further that, because you realize insular attitudes are not in its long term best interests?

By the way, I would question the numbers/percentages you cite. Even in the Gaeltachts, I found the use of the language to be be very limited indeed.

Ace7

Ace7 wrote: »

No, not at all. They were Irish speakers alright...and I was attempting to converse in the same. But I wasn't welcomed, I was looked down upon, excluded, or however else you want to characterize it.

And I say again, this is in stark contrast to other countries I have visited when trying to talk in the local tongue.

Are you shocked or surprised? Or perhaps could you see how that could happen? Be honest...there is something to what I'm saying, isn't there?

I was left with the impression that Irish speakers are reluctant to really go out of their way to help you learn it, which to me is like signing its death warrant, but yet they still want the government to prop it up to help ensure its survival.

I came away thinking 'What exactly is it that you want then?'. Do you want to keep it as some sort of 'elitist' language spoken by a proud and select few? Or do you want the language to grow and will you do your part to further that, because you realize the insular approach isn't in its long term best interests?

By the way, I would question the numbers/percentages you cite. Even in the Gaeltachts, I found the use of the language to be be very limited indeed.

I understand what you are saying and can't really answer you!
I know that In the Isle of man the original gaeilic language died out before becoming ressureceted and (new) speakers were very supportive towards learners, is there a lesson there.

Will Irish in the future be only the "school" version learned rather than the native as spoken in the gaeltacht!?

Slutmonkey57b

gurramok wrote: »

And i do wish deep down i am able to speak it. I know lots who resented the language in school including myself

Your reaction isn't the education system's fault. Lots of people react the same way to Maths. Yet for the most part, people just accept that Maths is boring and get on with it. Only Irish seems to have this "get out of jail free card" whereby its failings are blamed on anything but itself.

and regret not been able to speak it after leaving school.
Its an indictment on the education system that we cannot speak it when we can speak French or German way better.:mad:

aidan24326 wrote: »

No it isn't. If you spent 13 years learning it and still can't manage any more than 'doscail an doras' then you clearly weren't trying very hard.

Exactly. Personally, I make a point of not speaking or listening to any Irish. You were given the same chance as anyone else to learn it, and didn't take it up. That's your own fault.

The European Union spends millions of euros every year translating documents into Irish and Welsh and other minority languages, even though the natives of these countries already speak English or some other mainstream language. This makes no sense at all.

The enforcement of Irish as an official European Language is borderline criminal, and a waste of our fellow europeans' tax money.

Slutmonkey57b

Deleted User wrote: »

Have to agree with you there, my son is named Jack not séan (John) but that is the name the Irish teacher had "put on him" in school.

I know he has an anglicised (english) name but please let him use it; he may like Irish more if he could use his own name!

This is an example of the incredible "holier than thou" attitude of hardcore Irish support. If you had wanted your child to have an Irish name, you would have put it on the birth cert. A teacher assuming that they have the right to rename your child is beyond rude.

gurramok

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Your reaction isn't the education system's fault. Lots of people react the same way to Maths. Yet for the most part, people just accept that Maths is boring and get on with it. Only Irish seems to have this "get out of jail free card" whereby its failings are blamed on anything but itself.

Exactly. Personally, I make a point of not speaking or listening to any Irish. You were given the same chance as anyone else to learn it, and didn't take it up. That's your own fault.

It was not taught properly in my class. Peig was rammed down our throats before we could speak any conversational Irish.
Unlike French, where we actually learnt how to converse in everyday lingo, explain that one.
For once, it ain't the pupils fault!

Slutmonkey57b

gurramok wrote: »

It was not taught properly in my class. Peig was rammed down our throats before we could speak any conversational Irish.
Unlike French, where we actually learnt how to converse in everyday lingo, explain that one.
For once, it ain't the pupils fault!

Nonsense. By the time you get to Peig in secondary school, you've already been exposed to Irish in the school system for 8 years! "Conversational" Irish is what you were exposed to (and supposed to be learning) in Primary school. If, after 8 years of tuition, you haven't learned enough to read a simplistic Irish diary, then that's hardly the system's fault. You admitted earlier you resented having to learn the language - that's your reaction to it. Other students responded to the same syllabus and teaching standards, with entirely different reactions and much better performance. Case in point: My sister and I went to the same schools and were taught by the same teachers. She is reasonably fluent (primary school teacher), whereas I flatly refused to learn the language.

As to it "not being taught properly", how do you remember it being taught? When I refer to the language being "rammed down your throat", I mean that we are required to be present in class and pass exams in the subject. Clearly you mean something else.

And more to the point, if you're such a supporter of Irish, why weren't your family speaking it at home? Surely your parents bear some of the responsibility for your lack of exposure to the language.

gurramok

I was able to string a few sentences together in primary school along with most of the class. The downhill part started in secondary school.
Most of the class resented the language in seco due to not bloody understandng what was taught.
You 'flatly refused to learn the language'. That was a different case where i was, we tried to learn it with the syallabus and teachers available but most of us couldn't grasp the language and ended up resenting it as it formed a compulsory subject in the leaving.

I remember most of the time was reading Irish novels and poetry hence the Peig part of being rammed down our throats rather that learning conversational Irish. Contrast that to French, there was not a single novel or poem taught to us in French, only everyday lingo stuff and guess what, most of us knew more how to speak in French than Irish.

Family were in the same cycle, they went through the education system unable to grasp the language like myself so no help there.

Ginja Ninja

the reason there is such wild diversity in the gaeltacht irish is just 50yrs ago ireland was a very big place and the odds of you never meeting someone from any considerable distance away was slim so the local language became more localised like now how many words do you know for kiss same thing on a broader scale

(i hope i remember this is in stair na gaeilge exam)

oh agus buiochas mor le gaeilge:cool:

Slutmonkey57b

gurramok wrote: »

I was able to string a few sentences together in primary school along with most of the class. The downhill part started in secondary school.
Most of the class resented the language in seco due to not bloody understandng what was taught.
....
Contrast that to French, there was not a single novel or poem taught to us in French, only everyday lingo stuff and guess what, most of us knew more how to speak in French than Irish.

Your rebuttal contains the contradiction that disproves your point.
1) The "everyday lingo" you remember being taught in French class is exactly what you were being taught in Primary School Irish. If you had forgotten it, or discarded it, that's not the fault of the syllabus.
2) Other people came through the same schools with the same teachers and reached a higher standard than you. The same is true of any academic subject. Not all pupils are of the same ability or aptitude. Most tellingly, not all pupils make the same amount of effort. This is why mature students tend to do better at higher education and are more valued by the lecturing staff - they put in a sincere effort. By your own admission, you didn't make that effort in school, and came out regretting it. I, on the other hand, made even less effort and have no regrets whatsoever.

Slutmonkey57b

Ace7 wrote: »

2) This is not easy to explain, but I'll try. I can say a few expressions in Irish, having learned from books and tapes, etc. Yet whenever I have visited the Gaeltachts, I have sensed a distinct reluctance by the local Irish speaking population to embrace me. I felt very much like an outsider and was made to feel that way.

Goes back to my point that there is a xenophobic attitude in relation to the language from its most ardent supporters. What you're describing stems from the same source as the "heritage" and "Irishness" arguments they make.

the_syco

Meh. The Irish is being taught the same way for many years. You learn, use it briefly, and forget about it.

IMO, if it was taught the same way a foreign language was taught, it last longer, and go further.

Ace7

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand what you are saying and can't really answer you!
I know that In the Isle of man the original gaeilic language died out before becoming ressureceted and (new) speakers were very supportive towards learners, is there a lesson there?

I believe there is. The attitudes of some Irish speakers are not helping the language...while everyone else is supposed to help it by throwing their money at it. Even though you support the language, I can tell you concur to some extent.

Its a shame you feel you weren't able to answer me. I would really have been interested in what you had to say. I honestly mean that, and hopefully you know that.

I've never visited the Isle of Man. But if I ever do, I'm confident of what I'd encounter. If I attempted to speak Manx I'd be welcomed. Reckon you would be too.

Ace7

Ace7 wrote: »

I believe there is. The attitudes of some Irish speakers are not helping the language...while everyone else is supposed to help it by throwing their money at it. Even though you support the language, I can tell you concur to some extent.

Its a shame you feel you weren't able to answer me. I would really have been interested in what you had to say. I honestly mean that, and hopefully you know that.

I've never visited the Isle of Man. But if I ever do, I'm confident of what I'd encounter. If I attempted to speak Manx I'd be welcomed. Reckon you would be too.

The oly reason I can't answer your original question is the fact that I was brought up in the UK so don't have the same issues with the language as those who were educated in Ireland.

As for Manx, I believe that it is almost a dialect of Irish.

dlofnep

It's actually a hybrid of Irish & Welsh. Based on middle Irish, but has a spelling/phoentics similar to Welsh. I was just reading up about it - From 1874 - 1921, it went from 30% to 1.1% in terms of speakers. Amazing what one generation can do.

Ace7

Ace7 wrote: »

I believe there is. The attitudes of some Irish speakers are not helping the language...while everyone else is supposed to help it by throwing their money at it. Even though you support the language, I can tell you concur to some extent.

Its a shame you feel you weren't able to answer me. I would really have been interested in what you had to say. I honestly mean that, and hopefully you know that.

OK I'll give it a stab;

I have been in a similar situation while working in SE Asia, many of the locals would hear the English accent and would have a desire to practice their English.

After a while it gets very irritating to hear the mangled speech, " Ihas skim en bold ex zis moning" and worse.

So I can understand why Gaelgors are reluctant to engage in conversation, nothing to do with pride or withholding the language, more just plain fed up with straining to understand visitors.

Tony_Montana

Totally off the point here, but does anyone know a good online translator for welsh into english or irish. Can't find any

monument

Bambi wrote: »

if you're such a fan of the english language then you should probably look up the word "native" in yer dictionary.

Please stop abusing the word ‘native’ and the English language.

Irish people may be natives of Ireland, but the Irish language is not the native language of the vast majority of Irish people today. From the Cambridge Dictionary:

native speaker
someone who has spoken a particular language since they were a baby, rather than having learnt it as a child or adult

It's even flawed to call it the second language of most, since most can't speak it. Describing it as our ancestry language and also a language used by a minority is closer to the truth of the matter.

Run_to_da_hills

I voted for banning Irish from the State and enforce English as the main language and also for the closing down Gaelteachs, banning it from the media and removing it from all road signage.

By doing this they will do the language a favour because it will thrive. Everyone will want to speak and use it in spite.

The worst thing thaat ever happened to the Irish language was for it to be drilled into us at school. (Same goes for religion)

gleannuirce

Feef, 26 pages.

Not quite dead yet, then......

thehomeofDob

gleannuirce wrote: »

Feef, 26 pages.

Not quite dead yet, then......

UM... wtf bump?

Quickest way to revive interest would be to rejoin the UK.
Renewed nationalism would ensure the languages survival.

A but of a never ending saga this type of thread..

Acacia

Tags are hilarious though- 'is mise bart simpson':D

Oh, those fcuking Irish aural exam tapes, what a joke.

Toots

Much like the Irish language, this thread refuses to die

PS: The OP has the best username ever!!!

useful_contacts

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

Irish is an inferior language (which has been drilled into us by British occupation in Ireland for many a year) .

So your saying we dont speak irish cos the brits tried to take us over???

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

Seeing as the majority of us don't speak Irish (and most of us hate it because of the way it's taught) let's just be done with it altogether.

Thats not our fault, irish is taught for 40 minutes a day to us in primary and secondary schools so how are we supposed to grasp any fluency in it, if we get rid of the language then we are just another england- **** that ****!!!

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

Let's face it, us tax payers are paying a good few cent to keep these Irish language departments alive in the country, and what do we get out of it?.

So youd rather have a few extra cent in your pay packet each week than have no national language

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

After all, Ireland is just a damaged region of Britain with a few Irish speaking communities in the west

If you love england so much go live there

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

Yeah, Irish was the main language in Ireland not too long ago, but the famine (British genocide) fixed that. And a good job it did too.

Why is a good job? Because you cant learn irish and are pissed off??

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

It's also a kick in the heart when the majority of foreigners think that Ireland is apart of the UK.. It's a damn shame that, isn't it? .

So why are you suggesting we get rid of the language and make them think that even more?

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

So, Bertie? What the shag are you doing to our language? Build it or kill it mate..

Berties gone...

.............................................................................................

Just because not a lot of people in ireland arent fluent irish is no reason to scrap the language, its bad enough most of ireland speak polish as it is without scrapping one of the only things that seperate us from england.

Im not fluent irish and im not happy about it- i am taking an evening class twice a week to brush up on my irish, and my kids will go to our local irish speaking school.

Just because a language is not fluent by everyone is no reason to scrap it

Nehaxak

Poll results show pretty much emphatic results in favour of the Irish language, which makes something, I dunno, but I'm happy with seeing this result, that is all.

useful_contacts

useful_contacts wrote: »

Berties gone...

By the way the OP started this thread over two years ago, some things have changed since then.

Please consider before blaming Bertie, but then again lets blame Bertie for everything!!