Advertisement
We've partnered up with Nixers.com to offer a space where you can talk directly to Peter from Nixers.com and get an exclusive Boards.ie discount code for a free job listing. If you are recruiting or know anyone else who is please check out the forum here.
If you have a new account but can't post, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help to verify your email address. Thanks :)

Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

1679111218

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭ rinnin


    I've been using PON codes the odd time when ordering stuff off the internet. Havent really had any issues with them. Will have to ask me postie next time I see him what does he think of the whole thing and if himself or any couriers actually use it or if it helps with sorting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    rinnin wrote: »
    I've been using PON codes the odd time when ordering stuff off the internet. Havent really had any issues with them. Will have to ask me postie next time I see him what does he think of the whole thing and if himself or any couriers actually use it or if it helps with sorting.

    Thanks for the feedback - will keep you posted on major announcements re PON Codes in the New Year


  • Administrators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,593 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ oscarBravo


    There's a letter in today's Times claiming that a postcode system is a charter for the junk mail industry.

    Yet another example of the "my post gets here every day, therefore there couldn't possibly be any reason why anyone could ever want a postcode" mentality. Meanwhile, Chile has introduced postcodes...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    There's a letter in today's Times claiming that a postcode system is a charter for the junk mail industry.

    Yet another example of the "my post gets here every day, therefore there couldn't possibly be any reason why anyone could ever want a postcode" mentality. Meanwhile, Chile has introduced postcodes...

    Only a Post Code system with a related address database is of value to those involved in direct mail or marketing. The PON Code system does not use an adddress database - it does not have to - it is a Geographic, coordinate based system and so in itself is of no direct value to those in the mailing/marketing business.

    Also it is worth taking stock of the type of junk mail that goes through house doors these days - most has no address at all (and no stamp either in most cases) and so a Post Code would not be of any assistance. How much of this is delivered by An Post under contract???

    The junk mail debate with respect to Post Codes will only be relevant to some degree if an address related PostCode system like they have in the UK is introduced here.

    PON Codes are in no way similar to the UK system and so will not contribute in any way to Junk mail..................fact!!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 rlogue


    I've responded to that letter in the Times, let's see if it gets published.

    Basically the gist of my letter is that the Postcodes are needed to pinpoint rural houses, and have An Post opposed the introduction of postcodes because they want to preserve our idiosyncratic way of life or is it to put the kibosh on the competition.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    The PON Code for the new O2 in Dublin, previously known as The Point, is MS9 36RY


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,071 ✭✭✭ antoinolachtnai


    It is very hard to imagine a useful postcode which provided a unique number for each house without an address database. There would be no way to validate the postcode against the address. There would also be no way to take an address (even an urban address) and figure out accurately what its postcode would be.

    It is very hard to see how ordinary people could accurately determine even their own postcodes without the aid of a national database of some sort.

    It would also be pretty much impossible to figure out how to sort mail to deliver it to the address based on postcode, without the database. 'Rating' parcels, a key issue for international carriers of various sorts would also be difficult, unless the code was either hierarchically structured, or there was a database.

    Having a database is actually not a big deal. There are a number of national address databases in existence in the private and public sectors, and it is a matter of gradually merging them together over a period of time. Many of these databases have common reference points, so this is very feasible.

    The big players in the direct mail business will tell you that they don't need a postcode, that they can do everything they need with GeoDirectory. This is more or less true. In practice, the businesses that lose out are the local and medium sized ones that aren't big enough to bring in a fancy DM agency. Certainly, direct mail in Ireland is a lot less sophisticated than in the UK.

    But would it make a difference to the amount of direct mail in Ireland? Probably some difference, but not that much. The reason is that the direct mail revolution is over. The world of direct marketing has moved on to the Intenet for a wide variety of reasons.

    The reason why you get so many unaddressed leaflets is complicated, and has more to do with An Post's IR situation than anything else.

    Our laws on the privacy of electoral lists are tighter than in the UK and this would certainly slow down 'new' direct mail. What you would see, however, is carefully targeted leaflets coming in with your regular mail (ESB bills, magazines, eircom, etc.)

    There is one further issue. It is different to the old style direct marketing. It is the 'postcoding' process that Dunn Humby/Tesco carry out - the demographic profiling of relatively small groups of homes -. My own view is that certain elements of what DH are doing are wrong and that these practices should be prohibiited in law if they are not already illegal.

    There is an explanation of 'postcoding' here (written by me) - http://www.eire.com/2007/02/17/tesco-loyalty-cards-privacy-what-does-it-all-mean/.

    Having postcodes or not having them will not ultimately make any real difference to the ability of DunnHumby to apply their model to Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    It is very hard to imagine a useful postcode which provided a unique number for each house without an address database. There would be no way to validate the postcode against the address. There would also be no way to take an address (even an urban address) and figure out accurately what its postcode would be.

    It is very hard to see how ordinary people could accurately determine even their own postcodes without the aid of a national database of some sort.

    It would also be pretty much impossible to figure out how to sort mail to deliver it to the address based on postcode, without the database.

    Antoin, I agree with your comments on direct mail etc but not those quoted above. Those who have followed the lenghty discussions on the introduction of postcodes in Ireland will be aware that Antoin has his own proposal based on using a database and polygons or areas based on administrative areas which can be changed!

    As PON Codes are geographic they do not require a database - a location is a location, is a location and in the same way as satnav's can work out destinations and routes and optimise multiple destinations using PON Codes - so can all those delivering mail, goods and services do the same. As a PON Code is a location - anyone can just use a satnav or web map services to locate their property and get a PON Code - and if they cannot do it - then someone else can do it for them - with near 50% broadband penetration in Ireland, everyone knows someone who can do it for them. Also with near 1 million satnav's in Ireland over the next few years - everyone will know someone who can get them their PON Code using a satnav also.

    The narrow requirement of delivering mail only tends to restrict people to the idea of traditional address database type Post Codes invented in the 1950's. Modern low cost and readily available technology gives us new flexibility which PON Codes take advantage of - so now the organiser can put a PON Code on the local car boot sale by using a SatNav or Webmap in seconds - which a traditional address database PostCode would not permit...... well not until some Government agency has issued it after several months of waiting and only if it was close to an existing property rather than in a field or a carpark etc etc.

    Heres a fact..... none of the address database related PostCode proposals for Ireland over the last 4 years have happened or been trialled - why? - because they are purely aimed at delivering mail and they take time and lots of money to develop and maintain. PON Codes have been trialled, implemented for testing by Garmin (The largest SatNav manufacturer across the globe), have web map supporting services, can be used by mail, emergency and logistics services and are already in use by some organisations.

    If an address database related postcode system was adopted in Ireland, then thousands who have basic handheld gps receivers with no mapping (including the civil defence) would never be able to find places on the basis of a PostCode. There is also no guarantee that SatNav manufaturers could afford to implement and maintian them. However, PON Codes can be used even on the most basic GPS receivers - a vital requirement for organisations such as the army and civil defence in the event of a major disaster where roads may not be useable!

    I know I have said all this before - however as well as talking about it - we have also moved PON Codes forward and watch out for another significant step forward early in 2009.............


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,071 ✭✭✭ antoinolachtnai


    Using web-based maps and satnavs to survey the country is just not going to cut it. A satnav or web-based map will just not give the level of accuracy required to determine lattitude and longitude. Gary's scheme goes down to 4m squares, but Google maps are only accurate to around 10m at best, and in rural areas, can be 100m or more out of kilter. A code accurate to only 100m is better than nothing, but not great.

    Handheld or vehicle GPS's realistically have an accuracy of around 10m, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less depending on the location and the conditions. (The highest claimed accuracy is 7m, but you will be very lucky indeed to get this in a built-up area.)

    Even with a proper survey using a WAAS GPS system or based on an accurate map, Gary's scheme will also give the same property, even quite a small property, a number of different postcodes. The average suburban home will end up with around 10 postcodes, assuming it sits on a 160 sq m plot. It could be said that this is a 'feature'. I am not so certain. I think it would make things more confusing. The code would not be much use to the ESB for instance, in determining whether a particular property already had a supply.

    Lack of accuracy is not just a cause for confusion or an academic problem; if the survey point used (as a result of poor surveying, inaccurate GPS's and inaccurate maps) falls a little behind the house, for example, it could direct a driver to the house behind, which could be ten or fifteen minutes drive away. This seems like a small amount, but if a driver has a number of deliveries to make, it will upset his route and force him to backtrack. And this is not a problem that can be sorted out easily when it occurs - it will continue to occur every time that particular code is used, and there is no way to eliminate the code from use, because there is no central database.

    Gary's scheme also results in the same postcode applying to a number of properties in urban areas (some properties are considerably less than 3m wide). In the case of remote rural properties, it will not necessarily indicate the appropriate way to access the building if the site is not surveyed correctly (i.e, to the entrance rather than to the building).

    Also, there is no way to manually sort items addressed using Gary's scheme, because the code does not read from left to right (is not 'hierarchical' to use the jargon).

    There is also no way to 'rate' a package (to figure out how much to charge for delivery) without a fairly complicated piece of programming - a conventional lookup table (basically a spreadsheet giving a price for every postcode area cannot be created). There has to be a simple way to determine shipping rates, without doing distance calculations and complicated lookups on map systems to determine a shipping price.

    To deal with the above problems, the user will most likely have to fall back on the 'old' system of addresses. But the old address system is inadequate (and this is the basic reason why we need a postcode system in the first place).

    Brevity is also an issue. A useful lat/lon code is just too long. The only way to make it short is to include letters as well as numbers, and letters are very prone to mix-ups when the codes are called out over the phone or handwritten.

    Some comments on how I would suggest establishing a postcode and Gary's criticisms of it:

    Electoral divisions (which is the administrative area I would suggest using) really have not change to any significant degree in 170 years of use. Some have been subdivided, which is not a big issue, but that's about it. (Subdivision, which is infrequent, can easily be dealt with in an orderly way if it is planned for at the outset.)

    Using an existing division vastly reduces the amount of surveying required and therefore the cost. It also means that the new codes can be immediately linked to existing administrative districts used by Garda, health services and local authorities. (Incidentally, this type of code is nothing like the codes introduced by monopoly postal operators in the 50's.)

    Overall, Gary's view is that a completely new system of addressing is needed and that it should have no relationship to the old one. I think his scheme falls short as a complete addressing scheme in itself.

    I agree with him that the system of addresses we have at present has big flaws. But my view on how to fix the problem is different. Rather than replacing or sidestepping the system, I think it makes more sense to use a code which supplements and puts order on the existing addresses that we have.

    I'd be pretty confident that satnav manufacturers could incorporate a postcode based on administrative areas like ED's without significant expense. These areas are already in GeoDirectory, a data source that most, if not all of the satnav companies licence already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Antoin,

    nothing you have raised is an issue - the point is that PON Codes can be as accurate as you like - and that compared to an administrative or arbitrary polygon (area) which may encompass several hundred square meters or indeed square kilometers - no comparison really!!

    On the matter of GPS - those who attend training with GPS Ireland and those who use GPS regularly will tell you that a consumer GPS can give 2 to 3 meter accuracy in static mode! The published average Global accuracy of GPS is in the order of 2 meters! Furthermore, contrary to your statement WAAS is not used in Ireland - EGNOS is used here - WAAS is a North American service which is of no value to us in Ireland.

    PON Codes were developed by GPS Ireland - think they know what GPS can and cannot do! As for web maps - there was no detailed GPS associated road mapping for Ireland 4 years ago - now we have near 100% coverage and improving all the time and free mapping on the web. Amazing what can be done at little or no cost these days!!!

    On the matter of where to PON Code on a property - that is explained very carefully on www.irishpostcodes.ie website - i.e. a location about 5 meters in from the nearest road at the access to the property!! Really these issues cannot be questioned as the process, accuracy, techniques and technology have been tested widely in the last 6 months and bottom line is that they all work. If the user is wrong by 10-20 meters it makes no difference in a vehicle arriving outside the door! - i.e. we are talking about Navigation here not surveying! (GPS Ireland trains GPS Surveyors also if there any prospective students out there!)

    You mention geodirectory - it contains the x,y grid coordinates of properties and could be used to create PON codes no problem as a starting point - 3 issues as follows: it gives property centroids, is not complete for all properties in Ireland and it would be wrong to assume that it is 100% correct. However, any database related post code proposal would have to use it or else resurvey every house - cost would dicate that compromises would have to be made.

    You mention ESB - they already have x,y Irish Grid for properties - easily converted to PON Codes. GPS Ireland's Hangle Software does these conversions as well as other Grid and format transformations - see here: http://www.gpsireland.ie/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=6&Itemid=69 )

    You mention rating parcels - that's easy - PON codes define position - free web software with road mapping will give distances.

    You mention mixing up letters and numbers - those that are confusing are removed and all tested and working. - and working much better than Lat Long which has 3 versions and uses also letters and numbers and those who try to use it in the absence of Post or PON Codes generally get things very confused. UK and NI uses letters and numbers - many complaints but none about mixing the codes up with something else.

    A PON Code type solution is that which is recommened by the National Statistics Board !

    An area based system will suffice for DOE small area codes - we will leave that to the OSI.

    All the issues you have raised have been dealt with and are no problem for PON Codes.

    Perhaps you know when it is proposed to have an address database related system like you suggest up and running in Ireland?

    As An Post says - Ireland does not need Post Codes - in their traditional form they are of no real value - however anyone who provides services via roads in Ireland do need PON Codes - Position Orientated Navigation Codes!


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I take issue with the following . Google Maps may be crap but I find that yahoo maps in rural Ireland are accurate to 7m .

    Therefore if it is precision you want use Yahoo Maps and not the inferior and defective google ones .

    They are much of a muchness in the 10 larger towns, probably 3m or so resolution, but once you leave Galway City the difference is vast.
    Using web-based maps and satnavs to survey the country is just not going to cut it. A satnav or web-based map will just not give the level of accuracy required to determine lattitude and longitude. Gary's scheme goes down to 4m squares, but Google maps are only accurate to around 10m at best, and in rural areas, can be 100m or more out of kilter. A code accurate to only 100m is better than nothing, but not great.

    Handheld or vehicle GPS's realistically have an accuracy of around 10m, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less depending on the location and the conditions. (The highest claimed accuracy is 7m, but you will be very lucky indeed to get this in a built-up area.)

    Finally I hear that the cabinet is not enthusiastic about postcodes at all . They will not decide anything before the local elections .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Sponge Bob wrote: »

    Finally I hear that the cabinet is not enthusiastic about postcodes at all . They will not decide anything before the local elections .

    We do not have to wait for the Cabinet - PON Codes are already here


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,071 ✭✭✭ antoinolachtnai


    The fact that it is possible to code properties for free, and that just about anyone can do it, is of very little help if the codes provided are not accurate.

    'If the user is wrong by 10-20 meters it makes no difference in a vehicle arriving outside the door!'

    This is just not true, certainly not in an urban context. And for rural areas, one of the methods you suggest for deriving codes will give results which are only accurate to hundreds of metres.

    You cannot reliably and consistently get 2m accuracy from a handheld consumer satnav. A reputable satnav company makes the following claim: "Garmin® GPS receivers are accurate to within 15 meters on average. " (http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/)

    There are going to be lower mistake rates for numeric codes as compared to alphanumeric codes. Too many letters and numbers have similar sounding names. Anyone who has tried to spell names out over the phone will know this. The same goes for OCR systems.

    An example of a software producer's claims in this regard: "Handprint Recognition has improved dramatically over the last two (2) years. Today’s Voting Engines (see below) are up to 250% more accurate than single engines. Numeric Recognition is the most accurate since there is only Ten (10) characters to differentiate between. Numeric Recognition can achieve 95% first pass read rates, Alpha 90% and Alpha Numeric 85%." - http://www.intelliscan.com/Automated%20RecognitionP1.htm

    There are only two postcode systems in the world that make extensive use of letters, for this reason. Eliminating a few letters will not resolve the problem in my view. However, you may have done testing that proves me wrong. What testing was done on accuracy of human and machine handwriting recognition and aural recognition for these codes?

    Were any parcels manually sorted as part of the testing? Manual sorting is a reality of mail and parcel operations. I take what An Post management say about this with a pinch of salt. I know what goes on in the Dublin Mails Centre at this time of year.

    I do not think that express carriers will want to write rating software so highly specific to what is really a tiny market. Has the relevant market research been carried out?

    What is the algorithm by which latitude and longitude are converted into the PONC code?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Antoin,

    You are locked in traditional psotcode mode - you need some GPS, coordinates and Navigation experience.

    You Said: "This is just not true, certainly not in an urban context. And for rural areas, one of the methods you suggest for deriving codes will give results which are only accurate to hundreds of metres."

    The website gives several options if a location cannot be positively identified using the first - see here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/yahoo.php

    You Said: You cannot reliably and consistently get 2m accuracy from a handheld consumer satnav. A reputable satnav company makes the following claim: "Garmin® GPS receivers are accurate to within 15 meters on average. " (http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/)

    You might like to know that this is a 2 Sigma multi condition statement - here in mid latitude we can do better (not in all environments) but please take it from a GPS Professional 2-3 meters is routinely possible. I think you need some experience with this technology. The same reputable GPS company has successfully tested PON Codes and Local autorities use their SatNav's for driving to within a few meters of assets!

    You Said: There are going to be lower mistake rates for numeric codes as compared to alphanumeric codes. Too many letters and numbers have similar sounding names. Anyone who has tried to spell names out over the phone will know this. The same goes for OCR systems.

    People sucessfully deal with handling letters in addresses on phones everyday of the week - if they do not know the phonetic alphabet they routinely invent their own - give people some credit Antoin - no need to invent problems where they do not exist - we are as intelligent as those in the UK who handle UK postcodes on phones daily and routinely use them in SatNav's

    You Said: An example of a software producer's claims in this regard: "Handprint Recognition has improved dramatically over the last two (2) years. Today’s Voting Engines (see below) are up to 250% more accurate than single engines. Numeric Recognition is the most accurate since there is only Ten (10) characters to differentiate between. Numeric Recognition can achieve 95% first pass read rates, Alpha 90% and Alpha Numeric 85%." - http://www.intelliscan.com/Automated RecognitionP1.htm

    We are not talking about writing a book here or even a full address - a reader only has to read 7 characters some of which are predictable and some of which can only be numbers - all naturally written in capitals - no problem really!

    You Said: Were any parcels manually sorted as part of the testing? Manual sorting is a reality of mail and parcel operations. I take what An Post management say about this with a pinch of salt. I know what goes on in the Dublin Mails Centre at this time of year.

    There are several phases in delivering mail and different geographic resolutions for each - at the first 3 character level PON Codes define 3.5 km squares - perfectly good for manual sorting. An Post will never use a new postcode system - new entrants will and they will be using the courier model due to low density delivery points. They will do as DHL and others strive to do - use GPS/GIS/Routing technologies to otimise routes and loads.

    You Said:
    "I do not think that express carriers will want to write rating software so highly specific to what is really a tiny market"

    They do not have to - its already free on the web - however, they are already using specialist technologies to sort and route - yes we have statements from courier companies who have tested and would use once implemented on SatNavs and desktop or web software.

    Antoin - I think you are trying to draw conclusions from what you know of historic mailing practice and An Post - really you need to explore position /map related technologies - you will find this article an interesting introduction to the modern technology of efficient sorting & delivery: http://www.dhl.com.tw/publish/tw/en/press/local_pr/2006/20060607.high.html

    You said: "What is the algorithm by which latitude and longitude are converted into the PONC code?"

    All explained here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/findoutmore.php - if you need more please contact me personally - there are several organisations now creating their own solutions with the full algorithm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 Yoda


    For my part I side with Antoin here. It's possible to carve Ireland up any number of ways. One thing that has to be remembered is that actual people have to be able to relate to and make use of such codes.

    Geographical-coordinate-based codes would, in my view, be mostly useful for delivery of goods and services by stork.

    I used your website. Evidently my PONC Code is J3S ----. I can't think of anything less user-friendly. (I think it is J3S. It might be J35. I wrote it down and my handwriting is ambiguous where S and 5 is concerned.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭✭✭ goudystout


    I suppose as both you and Antoin are working together on your own PostCode proposal, it is understandable that you would try to support his argument. Mind you as an expert in writing systems I would have expected that you would be able to read your own handwriting!
    Yoda wrote: »
    I wrote it down and my handwriting is ambiguous where S and 5 is concerned

    There is no ambiguity at all really - unless you are a FI5H you do not live at J35 784X which is here: J35 784X

    You should refrain from posting your private PON Code on here - now all readers know unambiguously where you live (within a few meters anyway since you captured it using the geographic coordinates that are Lat and Long!!!)

    As for the bit about the Stork....think there is a red herring in his mouth!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    goudystout wrote: »
    I suppose as both you and Antoin are working together on your own PostCode proposal, it is understandable that you would try to support his argument. Mind you as an expert in writing systems I would have expected that you would be able to read your own handwriting!

    Thanks goudystout - well said - I everest my case!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 Yoda


    Who are you, Goudy Stout? I don't know who you are. I see you have three posts.

    I did not address any of Antoin's argument. I made my own. If your system has both J35 and J3S it is utterly prone to ambiguity.

    I am not going to get into a slagging match on Boards about this topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Yoda wrote: »
    Who are you, Goudy Stout? I don't know who you are. I see you have three posts.

    I did not address any of Antoin's argument. I made my own. If your system has both J35 and J3S it is utterly prone to ambiguity.

    I am not going to get into a slagging match on Boards about this topic.

    Yoda - seems to me that he has made it very clear there is no ambiguity - J35 is in the sea - where's the slagging in that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 Yoda


    Disambiguity is a key element of coding systems. I've been working with formally standardized coding systems for a decade and a half.

    Your system allows both K15 and K1S, which will get mail delivered to the wrong places.

    (Who is Goudy Stout? He knows who I am.)


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭✭✭ goudystout


    Yoda wrote: »
    Who are you, Goudy Stout? I don't know who you are.

    Didn't think that a moderator had to know someone before discussing a topic with them - are you suggesting that we should not communicate with each other for some reason?

    Surprised that as an expert in writing systems - fonts etc - you do not recognise a "Goudy Stout" when you see one!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭✭✭ goudystout


    Yoda wrote: »
    (Who is Goudy Stout? He knows who I am.)

    Can't help feeling unwelcome - don't publish your home page on here if you do not want anyone to know who you are (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=4653) -


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 Yoda


    I'm going to have to say here that so far it looks as though GoudyStout is a recently-created sockpuppet for GaryDubh.

    Gary may know that Antoin and I have worked on some things, but this anonymous person should have no reason to. It was civil of me to ask his identity, since he was taking some advantage of my identity and Antoin's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Yoda wrote: »
    Disambiguity is a key element of coding systems.

    "Disambiguity" sorry what does this mean? Can't find this word in any english dictionary - not even an American english dictionary
    Yoda wrote: »
    I've been working with formally standardized coding systems for a decade and a half.

    The correct english language spelling is "standardised"
    Yoda wrote: »
    Your system allows both K15 and K1S, which will get mail delivered to the wrong places.

    This is the second time you have attempted to make this Point and again it is not valid ! K15 is in Co. Galway and K1S is in Co. Roscommon.

    Are you suggesting that the full address would not be on the mail you refer to - surely your own and Antoin's post code proposal is not suggesting that addresses would be done away with completely?

    I do not agree with that type of proposal at all as it would undermine the use of Irish Placenames but if that is what you and Antoin are trying to achieve, I wish you the best of luck.

    As a Gross error check the specification of PON Codes from the outset covers the inclusion of a county code (Mentioned in this thread several times before) and included here: PON Codes

    Finally just caught your latest post and am not sure why you have taken an immdeiate dislike to Goudystout - perhaps its a font you do not like much ! However, as far as I understand it, he/she is entitled to their anonymity if he/she has chosen not to give any personal detail - there are many others like that on here and we should respect their choices.

    By the way I too have not given any detail about myself either - hope you have no problem with that!

    Why don't we try and stick to a discussion about Post Codes!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 Yoda


    1. Ambiguity is something one does not want to have in a coding system. To disambiguate is to remove the ambiguity from something. Disambiguity is something one wants to have in a coding system.

    2. ISO, the International Organization for Standardization, uses Oxford spelling, and in Oxford spelling, these words which have the Greek root -ιζειν are spelt -ize/-ization, not -ise/-isation.

    3. The entire address is often not read when sorting. Since K15 is in Galway and K1S is in Roscommon your system has a feature which is ambiguous, and it is highly likely that it would cause mis-sortation. (This is true for other coding systems; I once had a bag intended for Dublin routed by mistake to Dubai.)

    I can't recommend that you speculate on the work Antoin and I are doing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Yoda wrote: »
    1. Ambiguity is something one does not want to have in a coding system. To disambiguate is to remove the ambiguity from something. Disambiguity is something one wants to have in a coding system.

    2. ISO, the International Organization for Standardization, uses Oxford spelling, and in Oxford spelling, these words which have the Greek root -ιζειν are spelt -ize/-ization, not -ise/-isation.

    3. The entire address is often not read when sorting. Since K15 is in Galway and K1S is in Roscommon your system has a feature which is ambiguous, and it is highly likely that it would cause mis-sortation. (This is true for other coding systems; I once had a bag intended for Dublin routed by mistake to Dubai.)

    I can't recommend that you speculate on the work Antoin and I are doing.

    Ok Yoda - I wish you luck in your efforts to change the English language!

    Once again, there is no ambiguity between K15 and K1S - I have made that clear twice already - As for bags and baggage handlers I am sure there is another place on boards.ie for that type of discussion - but to use your newly created word - "mis-sortation" may have something to do with it!

    As for speculation on the work you and Antoin are doing - that I am not - it's in the public domain in Antoin's words with your name quoted in it at eire.com.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Funny that Gary but

    1. I accept your coding system is fine but
    2. You never explained why you used the inferior google maps/earth to let people find out what their codes are ....when the superior yahoo maps was a much better idea.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ garydubh


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Funny that Gary but

    1. I accept your coding system is fine but
    2. You never explained why you used the inferior google maps/earth to let people find out what their codes are ....when the superior yahoo maps was a much better idea.

    Thanks for that Sponge Bob...

    Google V Yahoo - is really TeleAtlas V Navteq
    and that is really TomTom V Nokia
    plus Garmin uses Navteq
    plus Garmin made an agreement with Google early in 2008
    Navteq is currently the most complete for Ireland but TeleAtlas is catching up - all very complicated really.........................

    Google has the most popular map interface and the most used API capability for development - and we have used Garmin as the most popular SatNav platform in the field for testing.

    However you will note on the website that we have also supported Yahoo and the best of all i.e. getting your position from a GPS including SatNav - see here:
    http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/yahoo.php

    The current website is a Beta Test (Stated clearly on it) - a lot will change early in 2009 when testing formally ends and we go to full release with the benefit of over 6 months real world testing and feedback and very detailed discussions including on here and on other blogs. The full release will reflect all of this.

    No other proposal has even got to field testing and generally could not without Government backing as they are too expensive to create and maintain. It is also worth noting that even if another proposal did get funding to move forward, there is no guarantee that any SatNav manufacturer could afford to license it - don't forget that so far no SatNav manufacturer has even been able to afford Ordnance Survey Of Ireland Map detail - they do not want to have to pass significant extra costs onto their users - don't forget that the average SatNav with all Europe mapping, including Ireland, now costs around Euro 160 incl. VAT having halved in price in the last 18 months!

    Also new postal companies entering the market have to be able to afford to use it - very few small companies are currently able to afford the official Government address database - the GeoDirectory - which is built and maintained by the Ordnance Survey and An Post.

    This has been an over-riding principal behind PON Code development - a system which uses the benefit of existing web mapping and SatNav technology without the need for any additional user costs and all the methods and technologies we have used are already in use in the Public Domain. We want to create a people's Post Coding system - where it is easy to get and use and change a PON Code yourself with just web access or a SatNav. Most, if they do not have one of these - they will know someone who does!

    You will also note that we have opened our system for full and frank discussion here and elsewhere and I have done my best to explain every aspect in detail.

    Will be making a formal announcement on the next step early in 2009 - will keep you posted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 Yoda


    garydubh wrote: »
    Ok Yoda - I wish you luck in your efforts to change the English language!
    Nonsense. "Standardize" is the preferred spelling in the Oxford English dictionary. ISO uses that spelling. Other spellings are current. I said nothing about "changing the English language".
    Once again, there is no ambiguity between K15 and K1S - I have made that clear twice already
    Not really. K15 and K1S are visually ambiguous. So would K03 and KO3 be. These are not trivial points in systems design. Other alphanumeric coding systems address the problem in various ways. You just claim that there is "no ambiguity". Part of being a standardizer involves considering and accepting constructive criticism, rather than just gainsaying those who offer it.
    As for bags and baggage handlers I am sure there is another place on boards.ie for that type of discussion - but to use your newly created word - "mis-sortation" may have something to do with it!
    Such a dismissal is really not civil. And certain prefixes in English are productive. "Mis-" is one such.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 thebman


    garydubh wrote: »

    No other proposal has even got to field testing and generally could not without Government backing as they are too expensive to create and maintain. It is also worth noting that even if another proposal did get funding to move forward, there is no guarantee that any SatNav manufacturer could afford to license it - don't forget that so far no SatNav manufacturer has even been able to afford Ordnance Survey Of Ireland Map detail - they do not want to have to pass significant extra costs onto their users - don't forget that the average SatNav with all Europe mapping, including Ireland, now costs around Euro 160 incl. VAT having halved in price in the last 18 months!

    Also new postal companies entering the market have to be able to afford to use it - very few small companies are currently able to afford the official Government address database - the GeoDirectory - which is built and maintained by the Ordnance Survey and An Post.

    This has been an over-riding principal behind PON Code development - a system which uses the benefit of existing web mapping and SatNav technology without the need for any additional user costs and all the methods and technologies we have used are already in use in the Public Domain. We want to create a people's Post Coding system - where it is easy to get and use and change a PON Code yourself with just web access or a SatNav. Most, if they do not have one of these - they will know someone who does!

    This is the biggest plus of PON codes for me. It actually solves the problem I think we need to solve and is not as expensive as a database solution especially in the long run especially for Satnav manufacturers.

    I don't really see post codes as being relevant for post anymore. An Post have said they don't need them so why bother designing a system around an organization that doesn't want them?

    Post codes instead are used by average people and couriers to get from one location to another. An ad for a company in a newspaper for example can just include their PON code. People can then enter this on their satnav and arrive at the destination. A courier going to someones house can do the same, just get someones PON code.

    To have to maintain a database is pointless. Your just going to end up with new housing estates pending post code creation that exist in a void without post codes. I know you could probably force assigning post codes during the planning stage but why bother with all that manual work by people when you could just have a non-database system in which the house would already have a post code and you aren't dependent on people maintaining a database?

    Lets face it if you have people maintaining it, your going to have errors and inconsistencies anyway so your just going to end up with two houses having the same post code through human error at some point or some other error that need not occur. I'd rather have someone misreading a post code than human error being possible maintaining a database of post codes.

    I'm sure there are errors in my post, feel free to point them out. I ain't no expert on this stuff unlike some people here, I'm just stating my opinion.


Advertisement