Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

sceptre · 05-01-2009 9:54pm

Postcodes, people. Thread topic, postcodes.

garydubh · 05-01-2009 9:59pm

sceptre wrote: »

Postcodes, people. Thread topic, postcodes.

Good Point

Richard · 05-01-2009 10:02pm

garydubh wrote: »

Good Point

So what's happening on the auld postcodes front then? Anything?

oscarBravo · 05-01-2009 10:13pm

Delphic wrote: »

I hear you, Sceptre. Will drop it and revert to postcode discussion.

On topic - my point was querying garydbh as to why he was sending me links to promotional information about postcodes and his company which deals with gps and postcodes, though.

Is this what commerical bloggers are allowed do on these forums?

That's not on-topic. garydubh didn't send you anything; he posted on this thread, and the software that runs the website sent you an email copy of his posts.

Let's get on topic, please - and Delphic, please read the charter before posting again.

garydubh · 05-01-2009 10:26pm

Richard wrote: »

So what's happening on the auld postcodes front then? Anything?

A National System is now 1 year overdue, no alternative implementation target has been published and ther is no allocation for Post Codes in the Dept Of Comms Budget for 2009.

Watever happens - we do not have to wait for a National System - As an example Google does not use National OSI Mapping - things do not work like that any more - if something is available and it works and is of benefit - then people will use it.

Delphic · 06-01-2009 12:21am

hmmmm

The more you read about this stuff, the nerdier you become.

I can see why you'd want to have a database of postcodes created with addresses linked to them now. Makes sense. Here's what they're doing in the UK with the info with one company called Postzon™ Data. It allows you to link geographic and administrative data from government bodies such as local authorities and the NHS for all known Postcodes in the UK. Use it to help plan routes, calculate distances between Postcodes, allocate sales force areas, distribute resources or locate facilities.

You can begin to see how this would seep into every aspect of how the country runs - almost as powerful as the PPSN.

I wonder if the Data Commissioner would have to get involved across this? If you are linking people's houses with names/contact details such as email addresses, and then compiling this into a database for selling onto others, do you not cross privacy issues?

Presume if postcodes came in, would they eventually published in one of the phone books? Seems logical that they would. An absolute boon for marketeers and researchers like myself. If you then start linking a database like this to other PIDs, the information becomes really rich and allows you to create various types of groupings for market analysis, though people might not necessarily like it.

And given that we're in the politics section, wonder how tallymen/women would like postcodes - help or hindrance. They didn't like e-voting because it hid the counts and streetnames away from them - would postcode groupings start to take hold in constituncy names - make it easier to tally?

The more you look at this, the more likely it is that the government would have to control it in some shape or form.

garydubh · 06-01-2009 8:16am

Delphic wrote: »

I can see why you'd want to have a database of postcodes created with addresses linked to them now. Makes sense. Here's what they're doing in the UK with the info with one company called Postzon™ Data. It allows you to link geographic and administrative data from government bodies such as local authorities and the NHS for all known Postcodes in the UK.

Very interesting - you appeared to be just a casual user in your earlier posts.

PON Codes are for built from a Navigation/delivery perspectice - they do not use a database - it is not needed - only those in the Bulk Mail - Mass Marketing industry have an over riding desire for Codes based on an address Database.

Delphic wrote: »

Use it to help plan routes, calculate distances between Postcodes, allocate sales force areas, distribute resources or locate facilities.

You do not need a code linked to a database to do this - all you need is your code to be geographic like PON Codes and off you go.

Delphic wrote: »

I wonder if the Data Commissioner would have to get involved across this? If you are linking people's houses with names/contact details such as email addresses, and then compiling this into a database for selling onto others, do you not cross privacy issues?

This would be a big issue if anyone was doing it - even Geodirectory cannot pass that type of info on. PON Codes do not do that and have a privacy statement relating to it. Is there someone you know that does that type of thing?

Delphic wrote: »

Presume if postcodes came in, would they eventually published in one of the phone books? Seems logical that they would. An absolute boon for marketeers and researchers like myself.

Which did you say you where - researcher/marketeer?

Delphic wrote: »

If you then start linking a database like this to other PIDs, the information becomes really rich and allows you to create various types of groupings for market analysis, though people might not necessarily like it.

Again that is the beauty of PON Codes - no database needed and even non properties or non addresses can have a PON Code. A a member of the British Postal Consultancy services said - " If Codes are needed for marketing/reasearch - let them design a code themselves for their own purposes"

Delphic wrote: »

The more you look at this, the more likely it is that the government would have to control it in some shape or form.

If this was the popular point of view in all areas these days, then Google Maps would not exist as they could not afford OSI data and people would probably think twice about submitting business locations and POI's to it ......

sounds like you have some well considered ideas on this and are firmly in address database and Government Control camp?

Delphic · 06-01-2009 2:58pm

Nope - I'm not. I'm all for free market where it makes sense - so treat me as a potential competitor from now on!

garydubh · 06-01-2009 4:37pm

Delphic wrote: »

Nope - I'm not. I'm all for free market where it makes sense - so treat me as a potential competitor from now on!

So what type of system are you proposing and are you the researcher or the marketeer?

Delphic · 06-01-2009 5:33pm

SeanW wrote: »

Although I like the idea behind the PON system, I agree with the posters above who said that the use of both 5 and S, 1 and I, 0 and O etc could cause confusion, and I think it would have been better if, when using numeric codes, numbers that can look like letters, or vice versa, should not have been used. Because codes can be written by people with sloppy handwriting, or by computers and printing equipment with Sans Serif typefaces.

I s'pose its too late to change it now though.

Look on the bright side SeanW and see the market possibilities. have a look at the WEB S1TE that GAR YDBH mentioned - ww.ticode.ie - that gives out the unusual names. love some of them. My favourite is C0W PAT5 which is right in the middle of a field - very accurate! Why don't we have some of these? You could have some vanity/funny ones for sale - B1G DAWG, THE 5K1D, MRS R1CH, ALL FA1R, THE BE5T, CAS TLEG. The politicians would love it - HAW HEES, BER T1E1, G1L M0RE, SIN FE1N. Just put them over the right spot and you're LAU GHIN. You could make a FOR TUNE. Just don't sell or give out the ones that might cause 0FF ENCE.

garydubh · 06-01-2009 6:33pm

Delphic wrote: »

Look on the bright side SeanW and see the market possibilities. have a look at the WEB S1TE that GAR YDBH mentioned - ww.ticode.ie - that gives out the unusual names. love some of them. My favourite is C0W PAT5 which is right in the middle of a field - very accurate! Why don't we have some of these? You could have some vanity/funny ones for sale - B1G DAWG, THE 5K1D, MRS R1CH, ALL FA1R, THE BE5T, CAS TLEG. The politicians would love it - HAW HEES, BER T1E1, G1L M0RE, SIN FE1N. Just put them over the right spot and you're LAU GHIN. You could make a FOR TUNE. Just don't sell or give out the ones that might cause 0FF ENCE.

That's why I have been prepared to spend time on here answering questions about PON Codes as unlike what you are referring to above - they were thought through and are a serious offering;- already field tested on Garmin devices and ready for the next step!

Delphic · 07-01-2009 2:57pm

garydubh wrote: »

That's why I have been prepared to spend time on here answering questions about PON Codes as unlike what you are referring to above - they were thought through and are a serious offering;- already field tested on Garmin devices and ready for the next step!

Garydbh - you make it sound like having to post on here is some kind of imposition on you and that you've better things to be doing with your time.

You know it's a voluntary discussion board so you don't have to answer any questions. people choose to come on here and get involved and promote their thoughts on postcodes - there's no obligation on you to respond.

I think the above is worth considering - it might be one way of marketing the idea of post codes to people. But just because of these word-codes you say the other system is not a serious offering - that seems a bit dismissive since they're attractive to some and relatively easy to fix or avoid if you don't want them, according to what you've said about your own code.

I think having a flexible code so that you can adapt it for different purposes - not just limit it for navigation/direction-finding - would be ideal. There are ways of doing this no doubt, but you'd have to start from scratch in working out how to create the code - but it's an interesting challenge.

garydubh · 07-01-2009 5:06pm

Delphic wrote: »

Garydbh - you make it sound like having to post on here is some kind of imposition on you and that you've better things to be doing with your time. You know it's a voluntary discussion board so you don't have to answer any questions. people choose to come on here and get involved and promote their thoughts on postcodes - there's no obligation on you to respond.

I think the above is worth considering - it might be one way of marketing the idea of post codes to people. But just because of these word-codes you say the other system is not a serious offering - that seems a bit dismissive since they're attractive to some and relatively easy to fix or avoid if you don't want them, according to what you've said about your own code.

I think having a flexible code so that you can adapt it for different purposes - not just limit it for navigation/direction-finding - would be ideal. There are ways of doing this no doubt, but you'd have to start from scratch in working out how to create the code - but it's an interesting challenge.

What?.......you are joking!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a serious dicussion!

Delphic · 07-01-2009 11:28pm

Figured as much. That's disappointing as a response.:rolleyes:

Never mind.

Delphic · 08-01-2009 2:17pm

Govt could implement postcodes this year to be used for delivery of mail, data analysis and social service support. Navigation/gps linkages are something to consider as well whilst being conscious of other technologies emerging in this area, and the various platforms being created with increasing shift of satnav technology to mobile phones and the attendant complexities this will bring in relation to competition, charging and licensing

Interesting.

luckat · 08-01-2009 4:12pm

What's keeping them?

Postcodes were first mooted in the 1960s, when people were afraid old addresses would be lost. Why do we not use them yet? They'd make life a lot more convenient.

markpb · 08-01-2009 4:49pm

luckat wrote: »

What's keeping them? Postcodes were first mooted in the 1960s, when people were afraid old addresses would be lost. Why do we not use them yet? They'd make life a lot more convenient.

This government takes decades to make any big decision, they'd prefer to talk about it for eons and "consult with the social partners". There's no reason to expect them to treat postcodes differently.

Delphic · 08-01-2009 4:55pm

luckat wrote: »

What's keeping them?

Postcodes were first mooted in the 1960s, when people were afraid old addresses would be lost. Why do we not use them yet? They'd make life a lot more convenient.

These things take time, luckat/mardp. Our government likes to deliberate on these things. But they're getting there within the next few months (or so.):rolleyes:

There's a few companies out there who are willing to step up to the challenge and provide one, even if the govt doesn't do anything. You can look at their websites and see what you think, here's two of them that have been talked about - gpsireland.ie and ticode.ie. Both systems propose using a code based on geographic coordinates that would allow you to be a lot more specific about a location than some of the existing postcode systems. Some people think that it's too specific, others think it's great cos you can get one for anyplace, not just a house or office. Both of them are up and running on a trial basis and seeing what the response is from people.

They would have a number of useful functions for getting around the place, using them on your satnav - whoch both of the above codes currently allow you to do - or pass them on to friends, businesses or delivery companies to let them know where you are. Eventually you could have a database - kinda like the phone book, where you'd have a code to go along with an address and phone number for houses and businesses.

The funny thing is that the codes mightn't get used for delivering post at all - despite their name - since An Post already have their own system for delivering mail. However, they would be useful for navigation, research, analysis and other things.

And the good thing is, you get the codes for free. Have done a bit of research on both sites comparing what they can do from user's point of view, which I'll get around to putting up a summary of here.

garydubh · 08-01-2009 6:13pm

Delphic wrote: »

These things take time, luckat/mardp. Our government likes to deliberate on these things. But they're getting there within the next few months (or so.):rolleyes:

There's a few companies out there who are willing to step up to the challenge and provide one, even if the govt doesn't do anything. You can look at their websites and see what you think, here's two of them that have been talked about - gpsireland.ie and ticode.ie. Both systems propose using a code based on geographic coordinates that would allow you to be a lot more specific about a location than some of the existing postcode systems. Some people think that it's too specific, others think it's great cos you can get one for anyplace, not just a house or office. Both of them are up and running on a trial basis and seeing what the response is from people.

They would have a number of useful functions for getting around the place, using them on your satnav - whoch both of the above codes currently allow you to do - or pass them on to friends, businesses or delivery companies to let them know where you are. Eventually you could have a database - kinda like the phone book, where you'd have a code to go along with an address and phone number for houses and businesses.

The funny thing is that the codes mightn't get used for delivering post at all - despite their name - since An Post already have their own system for delivering mail. However, they would be useful for navigation, research, analysis and other things.

And the good thing is, you get the codes for free. Have done a bit of research on both sites comparing what they can do from user's point of view, which I'll get around to putting up a summary of here.

I am intrigued that whilst you have stated here previously that you have no prior knowledge of this area you are now offering council and insight and are about to post your research into the benefits of proposed systems. It would be good, therefore, if you declared your background and expertise that supports your arguments.

Furthermore, if you are going to do comparisons between systems I would hope that you would accept that any proposal which determines a code based on position and that code can spell words of any sort would not be acceptable. No point in saying that you could change if if it did not suit - otherwise why base it on position in the first place - or like the article says... would you move the address to suit?

On this Thread there has already been much discussion on the merits of several proposals and I think they all have significant merits above a system which spells words so that a Post Code could even be a Placename relating to somewhere else in the Country entirely!

Delphic · 08-01-2009 8:49pm

Garybabes - No prior knowledge? Background and expertise? In GPS? Absolutely none. Well I own a satnav if that counts.

However, I can read stuff and understand it. And arrive at a point of view. Or provide a summary of what I've read. Much of the information for that came from your good self that you posted on here, as well as other posters and their views. That's what this is - a discussion board. No one is claiming to be God and know everything. I'm certainly not.

Stating that the govt is going to make up its mind soon isnt that difficult a call to make since they have said so in media reports which you posted here on the discussion board. Or they mightn't. Waddya want - a soothsayer? I only do Delphic predictions.

Postcodes are not rocket science, so it's not difficult to understand what's been written on here. You take existing geographic information and you turn it into a code. You design that code so that it's fit for purpose. Eureka! - what's so difficult about that to understand or have expertise in?

Some people wanted to know more on here. What did you do? You posted up even more information to explain it to people here in glorious detail. Now everyone understands the issues, what's involved, what the challenges are, and even some of the solutions, and your opinions on them all. I now know more about postcodes than I ever thought I would in a lifetime thanks mainly to your posts on here.

Who am I offering counsel to on here? (I presume you meant counsel not council.) Hardly yourself, as you say, you're the expert and you've spent two years on this. Everyone else? That'd be an audience of two at the last count.

You think I'm offering insight? I'm flattered you would say so, thanks. [I'll come back to that.]

I didn't actually say that I was going to 'post research into the benefits of proposed systems'. So I've no arguments to support that. Nor need for them. I said I had "done a bit of research on both sites comparing what they can do from user's point of view." Not judgemental, simply reading and collating the information as presented on the websites about the two systems. It's other people who can make the judgement on what's there.

In advance of me doing that, can I can offer you some insight or advice?

Knowing wood from trees.

You're too burned into this spellings issue. Not sure what article you're referring to about moving addresses, but anyway the point is that it's a resolvable issue. You presumably identified the same issue in your system, and took steps to avoid it as you discovered them - the same thing can be done by restricting letters and numbers in particular places like you said you've done. If that's your only problem with it, fine - you've made your point.

What you fail to recognise is if a company is developing a project that is at Beta stage - as the ticode site says - then it's inevitable that you make changes as you go along as you get feedback.

You said that you've done the same thing yourself with your site. You've been told your form filling was tedious, so you say you're getting rid of it for the next stage of your website. No one is saying that your site is useless because there's a complex and time-consuming form to fill out.

Something else to think about related to the issue you've said about ticode code characters creating confusion about places.

What about the people who said you have included confusing characters like 1 and I or 5 and S in your code. Some people might think or say that the code is useless because of that and that it's not a 'serious offer'. Is that fair?

You maintain that it's not an issue because people will use capital letters when writing them. Except, those same people might counter that the numeral 1 and capital I look very similar when written. You then provided an example to perfectly illustrate the point people were making.

You said - in previous post - that K15 is in Co. Galway and K1S is in Co. Roscommon. You want people to remember this, all the time? You can't presume users are going to know, remember or even care about the rules of how the code is created.

Some people might argue that it's a substantial flaw in a code to include both as separate characters. If a user is going to tell this particular code to someone, they won't necessarily give the address - they mightn't even know it - and you end up sending them to Galway instead of Roscommon! Whatever you might think, that has huge potential for confusion amongst users.

Would it be fair of me to say the code is not a 'serious offer' whilst it remains like that?

Or if I am going to do comparisons between systems I would hope that you would accept that any proposal which determines a code based on one position and that code can be interpreted to mean somewhere else would not be acceptable. And there's no point in saying that you could change if it did not suit - otherwise why base it on position in the first place?

Or even imagine if someone said that on this thread there has already been much discussion on the merits of several proposals and I think they all have significant merits above a system with a Post Code that sends you to two different places in the Country depending on how you read it!

You know what? You might be right. I think I should charge for all this counsel and insight.

garydubh · 08-01-2009 8:56pm

Delphic wrote: »

Garybabes

surely you mean garydubh!

Delphic · 08-01-2009 9:14pm

maybe I do, maybe I don't.....

They don't call me Delphic for nothing, you know.

garydubh · 08-01-2009 9:23pm

Delphic wrote: »

maybe I do, maybe I don't.....

They don't call me Delphic for nothing, you know.

So Delphic is not really a place near Longford !

Delphic · 08-01-2009 9:35pm

It's more AR6 LJFA.

garydubh · 08-01-2009 9:48pm

Delphic wrote: »

It's more AR6 LJFA.

Arrah Sweet FA ! - looks nice............

Delphic · 08-01-2009 9:57pm

Nice place, isn't it? Well worth a visit. Great part of the country. Did some filming there for a while. Magic scenery.

Back to topic - so you have nothing to comment on the above response?

garydubh · 08-01-2009 10:11pm

Delphic wrote: »

Nice place, isn't it? Well worth a visit. Great part of the country. Did some filming there for a while. Magic scenery.

Back to topic - so you have nothing to comment on the above response?

Filming!...... isn't that up in Carlingford?

Delphic · 08-01-2009 10:21pm

eh I'm confused about you mentioning Carlingford all of a sudden.

Was wondering what your response on the above post about postcodes - he said, desperately trying to get back on topic, before the moderators smite from on high......

Or do I simply assume that you agree with it - which is fine - silence is an answer in itself.

Delphic · 09-01-2009 1:02am

Garydbh - get the reference to Carlingford now. There's another centre there.

I'll see if I can complete the location code site features comparison and put it up tomorrow/weekend.

Delphic · 09-01-2009 11:20pm

garydubh wrote: »

Furthermore, if you are going to do comparisons between systems I would hope that you would accept that any proposal which determines a code based on position and that code can spell words of any sort would not be acceptable. No point in saying that you could change if if it did not suit - otherwise why base it on position in the first place - or like the article says... would you move the address to suit?

On this Thread there has already been much discussion on the merits of several proposals and I think they all have significant merits above a system which spells words so that a Post Code could even be a Placename relating to somewhere else in the Country entirely!

Garydbh - one thing to check - did you actually try putting in any of those words you said the ticode.ie code could have? It doesn't allow you to "spell words of any sort", like D0G FACE. Nor have "placenames relating to somewhere else in the Country", like NEN AGH.

Nenagh is right where it's supposed to be. In Nenagh, Co Clare. That's not how it works. You don't type in the name of county as a code, you put in the code that represents the location you want to map. Same as your system.

Delphic · 10-01-2009 12:39am

There’s two sites that provide location codes that could potentially be used as a postcode system in Ireland which have been discussed here previously. www.ticode.ie and www.irishpostcodes.ie. There may well be others that can be compared.

This is a quick summary of both systems using info and quotes from both websites.

Description
"PON Codes were designed....to allow road users in Ireland get better and more efficient use of their SatNav's, particularly those in the logistics and service industries. They can also be used by Postal Services and any service which involves navigating to a particular place at any time of the day or night.”

"TICode have developed a new national location code.....which can be used for business, personal and a multiple of other uses. The new TICode uses geographic coordinates as its base…..TICode can also be used for satellite navigation, mapping, address identification, database de-duplication and any activity that involves identifying an address in Ireland."

Code Type
“A PON Code is a 7 Character Alphanumeric Code which defines geographic position to within +/- 6 meters.”

"A TICode is a 7 character alphanumeric code that identifies any location in the island of Ireland to an accuracy of 17 square meters."

Getting Your Code for a location
TICode has two ways to find your code. You don't have to fill in a form or give private details.
1. Just type in your address (select the correct one from a list, if necessary), the code appears immediately on a map
2. If your address is not in their database, or you want to find a non-address place, find it on a map, and drop a marker on or near the point you want a code for and it appears.

The Ticode uses numbers but doesn’t use letters that look like them. So it uses 0,1, 5 and 8, but doesn’t use O, I, S or B. Even if you enter these letters accidentally, the system automatically corrects them and takes you to the right place. Thus LSG 4SMG (Ticode HQ) automatically corrects to L5G 45MG.

PON also has two ways to create a code.
First you are asked to fill in a form with your address, building, type, no. of floors etc. As a minimum, you are required to give an email address and nearest post office to the address to get the code.
Then:
1. You can use Latitude and Longitude of a location if you know it or ....
2. Use a Map with a drop pointer to find your house or building or other location. Drop it on or near the place, confirm and your code appears.

PON has a separate process/form for businesses and houses.

The PON code uses some letters and numbers that look alike, particularly when handwritten, like S and 5. For example, the code KI5 74GH is near Ballinasloe, Co Galway and KIS 74GH is near Strokestown, Co Roscommon.

Code Features & Services
PON
- The PON code is automatically emailed to you
- you can drag it onto your desktop, and get instructions to put in your email signature.
- There is a trial currently to download PON codes onto particular Garmin satnavs, only available from gpsireland. People can trial these and have been used successfully.
- The irishpostcodes.ie site has a link to main gpsireland site which provides Hangle software to convert Long/Lat coordinates to PON codes.
-(Don’t know if PON site is compatible with web-enabled mobile phones. Couldn’t find any info about this on site.)

TICODE
- The ticode you select comes with a tag confirming the address for your location and options to mail it to yourself or a group of people, or get instructions to put it into your email signature.
- You can download your Ticode onto any Garmin or Tom Tom sat nav and work sucessfully
- If you register with TIcode, (no sign-up fee) it says you can also see nearby houses which have already been mapped and coded - presumably if you need to fine tune the place you’re looking for.
- “If you are looking for a TICode for a Point of Interest, (such as a garda station, hospital, petrol station, speed camera locations, etc.) you can select the Find Point Of Interest option, put in the details and display a map of the TICode.”
- TICOde also have a route mapping feature whereby you can enter an address, pick a point on map or else enter TICODEs for your start and destination and it provides navigation details and map of your route to print out.
- The Ticode site is "set up to be compatible with the browsers on most modern mobile phones. Rather than having a separate web address for the mobile version of the site, it automatically detects if you're using a mobile to connect and tailor the content accordingly."

Mapping a Code
PON
You can enter a code into a section of the website and it will show the location to you on a separate map.

You can also see local and area versions mapping of the code.

It shows you links beside a map to view area codes for the 3.5 km squares in Google Earth so you can see what bits of the code refer to.

TICODE
You can enter a code into a section of the website and it will show the location to you on a map.

If you want, you can enter multi- ticodes and these will be mapped together for you. Apparently you are restricted to a certain number of these requests per day.

Other Comments:

Both sites have already signed up users and are providing services to them. Codes are provided for free to individuals.

TICOde says it has over 1 million codes registered already. No numbers are available for PON.

If people want to comment - feel free.

garydubh · 10-01-2009 1:04am

Delphic wrote: »

Look on the bright side SeanW and see the market possibilities. have a look at the WEB S1TE that GAR YDBH mentioned - ww.ticode.ie - that gives out the unusual names. love some of them. My favourite is C0W PAT5 which is right in the middle of a field - very accurate! Why don't we have some of these? You could have some vanity/funny ones for sale - B1G DAWG, THE 5K1D, MRS R1CH, ALL FA1R, THE BE5T, CAS TLEG. The politicians would love it - HAW HEES, BER T1E1, G1L M0RE, SIN FE1N. Just put them over the right spot and you're LAU GHIN. You could make a FOR TUNE. Just don't sell or give out the ones that might cause 0FF ENCE.

Delphic wrote: »

I think the above is worth considering - it might be one way of marketing the idea of post codes to people. But just because of these word-codes you say the other system is not a serious offering - that seems a bit dismissive since they're attractive to some and relatively easy to fix or avoid if you don't want them, according to what you've said about your own code.

I think having a flexible code so that you can adapt it for different purposes - not just limit it for navigation/direction-finding - would be ideal. There are ways of doing this no doubt, but you'd have to start from scratch in working out how to create the code - but it's an interesting challenge.

Pity the flexible code you were extolling above has now suddenly and radically changed as of tonight. Well done for picking the changes up so quickly to allow for them in your comparisons.

They will be cursing you because of all the work they have had to do since you pointed these things out including having to change their own HQ code.......- ssshhhh say no more about the remaining oversights or they will have to keep changing it - they are poised as we speak!......... hoping that the alleged 1 million users will start passing on a few ideas through their silent forum!!

Keep up the good work!

Delphic · 10-01-2009 2:28am

Thanks for the feedback, Garypeeps - glad you think it's helpful to you.

Does that mean you're going to change your PON code? Or are you going to keep the letter/number flaw people mentioned?

Re the site comparisons - one leetle thing. The only reason you have given repeatedly that ticodes weren't a 'serious offer' - to use your words - was because of the word code issue. They no longer appear. So now suddenly you've changed your argument and you're saying 'well actually there are other remaining oversights' but you don't say what they are. Sorry - but I don't buy that - smells like bull poo to me. In the same way that you can't really claim that PON Codes are the only post code in Ireland that have been field tested and are viable. Or that no other viable code exists right now. Total bull poo.

The flexible code you say I was 'extolling' could not have been changed tonight since it hasn't been created yet! I said it would have to be created from scratch. That means a new one. Not either of the existing ones. Oddly, there are elements of the flexibility I'm talking about in the PON code, but it's not making use of them, in my view.

Oh - and the other site says a million codes, by the way, not users - alleged or otherwise.

Leave you to it. My work is done here.

garydubh · 10-01-2009 10:44am

Delphic wrote: »

Garypeeps -the other site says a million codes, by the way, not users - My work is done here.

Glad you clarified that - divide the square area covered by the code by 17 and that's the number of Codes - may or may not be 1 million!

If you divide the same area by 6, then you get the number of PON Codes - more codes in fact but not relevant - just marketing for the unaware! You have now answered my question - "marketeer" !

Where to next? - a silent forum or the wedding at Kana!

Delphic · 10-01-2009 2:17pm

Eh - Gary/Archimedes - maybe I'm a bit stupid, but I didn't understand that.

Divide what "square area covered by the code by and that's the number of codes??? And why 6 for PON and 17 for Ticode?

Am on way to Cana as we speak. Forgot to bring the Perrier though....hopefully I can find a 7-Heaven open.

Delphic · 10-01-2009 4:19pm

garydubh wrote: »

...Divide the square area covered by the code by 17 and that's the number of Codes - may or may not be 1 million!

If you divide the same area by 6, then you get the number of PON Codes - more codes in fact but not relevant - just marketing for the unaware!

Ah - I see now what you’re getting at - you're saying take the whole square area of Ireland, divide it by 17 (because that's the size of one Ticode cell or area ) and you get the total number of codes.

Whereas with PON codes you divide by 6m cos that’s the size of a PON code.

Except that doesn't makes sense. Don't think you're comparing like with like.

A Ticode covers an area of 17 square metres - that's approx an area of 4.1m x 4.1 metres. Which would make them smaller in size than PON codes which you say are approx every 6 metres.

So in fact there are more Ticodes than PON codes - not less. Don't know about usefulness for marketeers, but that's highly relevant to researchers and analysts. You can have much greater detail with more codes.

There'd have to be much more than a million codes - surely there's more houses than that in the country? I'd say that it refers to the number of addresses that have been given a Ticode to so far - cos the site says over a million codes and growing - so obviously it's being added to all the time.

garydubh · 10-01-2009 9:24pm

Delphic wrote: »

There'd have to be much more than a million codes - surely there's more houses than that in the country? I'd say that it refers to the number of addresses that have been given a Ticode to so far - cos the site says over a million codes and growing - so obviously it's being added to all the time.

I am too polite to apply your own previously used term - "Bull..." - to what you said above - but it would be appropriate never-the-less.

You Say "a million codes" "refers to the number of addresses that have been given a Ticodeso far" ...
- here's a fact for you - any address can be given a code without the occupier or any user ever been involved in anyway at all - that's the benefit of using Geodirectory which many marketing companies would have for their other bulk mail related activities anyhow - so no indicator of the amount of use of their code at all really - more like just playing with words to create impressions!

I expect people would rather wait and see what the code looks like when its finally finished and has stopped changing to reflect what is said on here. However, I suppose it is great that Boards.ie is being attributed the compliment of contributing "Best Practice From around the world" to the design of their code. I am sure they are also glad that you are here to offer interpretations on their marketing speak!

In the meantime PON Codes are significantly superior in the way they are engineered and for 6 months have already been actually useable on SatNav's - see screen shots of PON Codes on a Garmin SatNav here

Delphic · 11-01-2009 4:27pm

Garyd - you keep confusing things between what I said and what you thought I said.

You've just confirmed my view that a million addresses have been assigned ticodes. Therefore, it's not bull. I didn't say anything about the possible number of users of the code at all. You did.

As part of your marketing of PON code, you're trying to do the same thing on your site - get people to sign up to match an address with a PON code. So tell us how many addresses have been given a PON code so far? How many users are there? Why not give a comparison? You said in September that "at least 35,000 persons have investigated PON codes" Is that web hits? How many of those signed up? A few hundred? One thousand? Ten thousand? Why not be the first to say exactly how many users are already using location codes like PON?

You talk about 'playing with words to create impressions' as your view of marketing. And then you go on to claim that "PON codes are significantly superior in the way they are engineered...!!?"

Eh? What does 'significantly superior' mean? How is it superior? What's the customer benefit? If you're going to make a marketing claim, it should be realistic, appealing to the customer and ideally have a benefit that is unique. However, unlike any other alphanumeric code in the world it would seem, PON codes persist in using letters/numbers that are potentially confusing, open to misinterpretation and could bring someone to the wrong location. I wouldn't call that superior, and it ain't appealing, but it is probably a unique feature!

Your marketing strategy seems to be - let's ignore that and say something positive and bland about the product instead, mention Garmin regularly, and hope people will automatically buy it. Ford thought the Edsel car was superior and appealing. Guinness thought the same about Guinness Light. Look where they ended up.

You seem to sneer at people wanting to follow best practice. There's a reason why best practice gets established in an industry - it sets out standards for people to follow and includes a process of refinement to ensure the best product or service possible. The other code people seem willing to do that. By your own words, they have corrected a potential problem in response to feedback.

Making like an ostrich and ignoring what potential customers are telling you ain't best practice. Or simply telling people that your postcode is superior doesn't change anything - unless you provide proof.

We already know that both types of codes are downloadable onto satnavs and are being used - we've established that fact. Simply repeating it or putting up screen shots of these doesn't move things along much.

By the way, I don't think feedback has only come from boards.ie since I've just googled 'garydubh/postcodes' and - surprise, surprise - there you are across the various discussion boards with comments and contributions about postcodes, including this comment: "this has since been shown to be unworkable as users could have a post Code spelling words such as "D0G FACE". Interesting marketing tactic. You make it sound as if some official third party deemed the code unworkable, when in fact, that's simply your opinion as a competitor. And, it's no longer accurate since D0G FACE is not a code.

Or maybe you're just playing with words to give an impression?

thebman · 11-01-2009 5:36pm

The biggest advantage PON codes have is no database for maintineance. Does your system have such a benefit?

Will it need to be updated every time a new house is built or a new housing estate goes up?

You haven't given as open an outline of your own system as Gary has here so its hard to tell if your system is database based. Maybe you did say it and I missed it.

I'd be against a database system. It will inevitably cost a lot to upkeep and cause problems with when to update the system.

garydubh · 11-01-2009 6:06pm

Delphic - Wow!!!!!!!!!!.............are you ok?
Must be stressful trying to defend the indefensible
take a deep breath
feeling ok now????

You Said: "wanting to follow best practice......The other code people seem willing to do that. By your own words, they have corrected a potential problem in response to feedback" ............strange that such a critical boo boo (a suggested postcode that spelled words and placenames) took 12 months, an alleged 1 million addresses and your arrival on here all just to identify and, not change, but re-invent the code without solving the problem at all - and all this just in time for you to post your pre-announced comparisons here!!!

Sorry - Delphic your intentions are now obvious.......

I do not propose to be goaded into a non stop tit for tat with you on the subject - you will need someone else to QA the code for you - it will not be me.

Brim4Brim
Their website uses the Geodirectory database - but the code does not really need it - they have it for other things so they are making use of it!
The issue really is that in spite of a complete redesign of their code on Friday night last, the same problem still exists and cannot be resolved without using a different code design completely - who knows 3rd time lucky perhaps! For now they just need people to provide the "Best Practice" and identify the problems for them...........

I would love to help but.....................

Delphic · 11-01-2009 6:38pm

brim4brim/garydubh

Not sure if you're asking about my idea for a system or the TICode one. You'll need to ask Ticode.ie to get a formal response from them. Gary says they have a silent forum - go make some noise.

Anyway, you've hit on an important point - one of the biggest disadvantages that PON codes have is no database right now. However, if you look at previous posts from contributors, you'll see that PON are building one - through people logging on for codes and asking tourism sites to use codes on their customer directories. Even though this hasn't been taken up much by companies - the intent to have one is still there. Which they'll need to maintain if it's to be of any use.

Also as you're aware, PON have stated that they would like to be used by Geodirectory as well - which is I understand a database of all buildings in Republic. So obviously if PON or TIcode want to be linked to a central database of all buildings, then you would need to add new buildings to it - whether houses of offices - just like any database. How they deal with this, you'll need to ask them. Don't think it will be too tricky since the codes will already exist for the area, - it's a predesigned grid with millions of codes - all you do is assign them accordingly to their location.

You're absolutely right to say that I haven't given as open an outline of my own system. Only because I haven't created it yet. Give me time. PON has been two years in the making and it's still not quite right. Ticodes just ironed out a problem for themselves. Might be a few years before I get around to it.

Or I might take up woodturning instead.

You'll find an analysis of the two existing codes TIcode and the PON system a few posts back that looks at their features and benefits. Both are up and running as potential postcodes - though ultimately the Govt may decide to look for something different.

Gary says that Ticode still haven't solved the problem of accidental words. Whilst I can't find the words he referred to previously, maybe he's using a different system, or has found different ones. What he neglects to mention is that words can be created from his PON code as well. So it's the same problem in both codes. I suspect that any of these alphanumeric codes will inevitably contain some words using a combination of actual letters and numbers that look like them. The objective is to reduce the possibilities as much as you can.

If you're against a database system because of maintenance - don't worry about it. You won't have to do the work. And you won't have to pay for it either. Just take your free Ticode or PON code (as long as you don't live in Galway or Roscommon) and have fun with your satnav.

DLiam007 · 15-01-2009 6:01pm

I know this is a really old post. But is this something that is ever going ahead? It would make getting around much easier!

garydubh · 15-01-2009 6:30pm

DLiam007 wrote: »

I know this is a really old post. But is this something that is ever going ahead? It would make getting around much easier!

There was a proposal from the Government back as far as 2005 for a PostCode. However, the deadline passed 1 year ago and has not been re stated since. Given the shortage of finances right now and the absence of an allocation in the 2009 budget, it is reasonable to deduce that nothing will be happening any time soon. So, as an alternative, the PON Codes you have been reading about in earlier posts were developed and these are at advanced stages in testing in cooperation with Garmin and their SatNavs. So if you are looking for something to help you actually get around - it is almost there!

Delphic · 15-01-2009 10:32pm

DLiam007 wrote: »

I know this is a really old post. But is this something that is ever going ahead? It would make getting around much easier!

On the contrary, it is very likely that the Govt could go ahead with licensing a postcode system this year, since it would cost them little or nothing to do so.

If that happens, a number of people will be putting their oar in, of which PON codes are but one.

They have problems with the code which they may or may not want to sort out - similar characters/numbers that are misleading for users. Words appearing in some of their codes like P1G, H0G, P1S5, and even P1S51NG which people may not be happy with and which Gary has said are unacceptable in a code and makes them unworkable and unviable.

Gary says another code has the same problem despite their attempts to fix it - though gave no evidence of this - but this may be a feature of these kind of codes. So some other solution may have to be found to sort it out or remove it.

jaffa20 · 16-01-2009 8:36am

is it ever gonna happpen

How old is this thread now. Shows how the government don't put a lot of effort into enforcing things other than tax, and new laws on drinking or driving.

garydubh · 16-01-2009 10:46am

jaffa20 wrote: »

is it ever gonna happpen How old is this thread now. Shows how the government don't put a lot of effort into enforcing things other than tax, and new laws on drinking or driving.

But the point is that to have a code system that can be successfully used you do not need Government involvement at all - it is not necessary.

There is no need to wait - once the Government is involved anyhow things get expensive, there are poitical sides to be taken and objections to be made and a long period of "consulting". Aside from the fact that the Government is very busy doing other things right now.

If there is something reliable and tested around that solves the problem and it works - then just use it - there are no fines for using something that the Government has not provided - otherwise we would not be able to use the internet at all!!!

garydubh · 16-01-2009 11:59am

Delphic wrote: »

I've no doubt the board administrators will pick up on this and remove it.

What?

Delphic · 17-01-2009 12:47am

Never mind - figured that would be dealt with accordingly.

Met a guy from local US post office today and got into conversation about zipcodes. Fascinating history to them and how they've developed here.

johnplayerblue · 17-01-2009 12:18pm

We don't need post codes, Why fix something thats not broken? Fix something thats not working like broadband ffs.

garydubh · 17-01-2009 12:38pm

johnplayerblue wrote: »

We don't need post codes, Why fix something thats not broken? Fix something thats not working like broadband ffs.

I understand what you are saying - if you have to wait for Government to do anything then there will be a long wait.

However, PostCodes or similar do not need the Government to provide them but the absence of them is similar to restricted access to broadband. Broadband means quicker access to data and web services with less cost. PostCodes capable of being used in vehicles means quicker and more efficient access to deliveries/collections to/from properties anywhere in the country at less cost. This also means anyone - whether in urban or rural areas - can avail of the full benefit of web purchasing and selling services facilitated by broadband - which they are currently unable to do.

Broadband and Postcodes both need to be "fixed" as you call it but PostCodes if done privately will not need the same financial input and expensive infrastructure. They can be fully implemented without Government funding and at no cost to the user - just benefits!