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Would you really like to live forever?

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Comments

  • #62
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Think of life as a do, do follow Christ and His lead for your life. Your propensity for sin will diminish and the good you do will be very gratifying to you and those you associate with.

    you dont need to follow christ for the latter part of that sentence tho
    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    The Vatican hasn't the authority to pardon or Bless, only God can do that.

    then why does the vatican issue pardons occasionally?


  • #63
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Helix wrote: »
    if god created everything, and created us how we are, then he is to blame, and to thank, for every single thing that happens in his universe.
    I just don't understand this view. Free-will is what it says on the tin. We are free to do good or evil with no coercion in either direction. What's so hard to understand about this? Our decisions aren't deterministic because we're not machines.
    Helix wrote: »
    of course there is, you only have to look at nature to see that. apply "sins" to animals and youll see that nature doesnt play by that rulebook
    There's a big difference between us and animals. Animals can't sin because they don't know what's right and wrong and so aren't entirely responsible for their wrong actions.

    Sin by definition must involve a decision to do wrong. Without the decision, we can't be held responsible. We have consciences so we know if something is right or wrong before we do it. We then decide a course of action knowing that it's right or wrong. So we are to blame for sin. God doesn't force our choice in either direction.
    Helix wrote: »
    there are only implications of creating sinless beings WITH free will because of the limitations god imposed while creating the universe. if he created it all from scratch, then he could surely have created free will and no evil to exist together.
    I don't see how this is possible. Free will means that evil is possible. If evil isn't possible then we don't have free will.
    Helix wrote: »
    youre again falling into the same pitfall here, youre saying on the one hand that god created everything, and then saying that he HAD to create it a certain way
    My faith tells me that God is omnipotent and omniscient and so created the universe and life in the best possible way. Why would he opt for a lesser design? I'm sure God could have created a world without evil but chose not to for reasons best known to Him. Ultimately it's a mystery. There are some things which God chose not to reveal like why suffering exists and how many people are saved or damned.

    If for instance we knew why there is suffering, wouldn't that give us a reason to tolerate it. The ways things are, we are given an opportunity to be compassionate and help those in difficulty. That's why the caste system is so wrong.
    Dades wrote: »
    It still doesn't answer why would he give us free will, and allow horrible things to happen, when he can create a utopia that has none of that.
    All we can do is speculate as to why God allows evil, there's no definitive answer as it hasn't been revealed by God.


  • #64
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Dont approch life as a bunch of don'ts, you'll be miserable.
    Think of life as a do, do follow Christ and His lead for your life. Your propensity for sin will diminish and the good you do will be very gratifying to you and those you associate with.

    Hey don't get me wrong I'm a good person I just don't think it's possible to be 100% sin free in the modern world. As someone once said if I accidentally fall against my keyboard and it happens to cause the words "free online pron" to be entered into google, and then in my rush to close the browser I mistakenly click on the first link in the search results and breath a sigh of relief when I spot that the site is actually a pay site but as I turn in my chair my wallet happens to fall out of my pocket onto the keyboard, my credit card bounces out and over the number key pad and somehow enters my details and submits the form. Well that could lead to more than one sin despite my general good nature.


  • #65
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    we have atheists who think that spending eternity doing stuff that is exciting and fulfilling will be horrible.
    Ah, a truly splendid misrepresentation of what I said :)


  • #66
    ElCrapula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭ElCrapula


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I just don't understand this view. Free-will is what it says on the tin. We are free to do good or evil with no coercion in either direction. What's so hard to understand about this? Our decisions aren't deterministic because we're not machines.


    With no coercion?So,were told that if we commit a certain act or acts that we will burn in hell for all eternity.Is that not coercion?You cannot argue that under such harsh rules that the will is free.Do x,not y.Do y if you like but..........


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  • #67
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    All we can do is speculate as to why God allows evil, there's no definitive answer as it hasn't been revealed by God.
    I'm speculating that as the world looks identical to one lacking an interventionist god, that such a god isn't there at all. I find this saves all the hammering that comes with square pegs and round holes!


  • #68
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I just don't understand this view. Free-will is what it says on the tin. We are free to do good or evil with no coercion in either direction. What's so hard to understand about this? Our decisions aren't deterministic because we're not machines.

    i never said anything was hard to understand about it
    kelly1 wrote: »
    There's a big difference between us and animals. Animals can't sin because they don't know what's right and wrong and so aren't entirely responsible for their wrong actions.

    that only serves to show that right and wrong are human creations based on societal acceptances
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Sin by definition must involve a decision to do wrong. Without the decision, we can't be held responsible.

    so if someone doesnt know what theyre doing is wrong, its not a sin?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't see how this is possible. Free will means that evil is possible. If evil isn't possible then we don't have free will.

    think outside the box. youre limiting yourself to the current set of laws in the universe. assuming god is as powerful as you take him to be, he could just as easily have created a universe where free will is possible without evil. you or i might not be able to understand how that is possible, but surely the bloke who created the universe does
    kelly1 wrote: »
    My faith tells me that God is omnipotent and omniscient

    he cant be both
    kelly1 wrote: »
    and so created the universe and life in the best possible way. Why would he opt for a lesser design?

    there would be no lesser design, each design would be equal as each one woudl be governed by laws not applicable to the others
    kelly1 wrote: »
    All we can do is speculate as to why God allows evil, there's no definitive answer as it hasn't been revealed by God.

    perhaps because he enjoyed partaking in a bit of evil back in the old testament times himself, and if he created a universe where that wasnt possible, he wouldnt have been able to go on murderous rampages, demand sacrifices, or condone rape?


  • #69
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    musician wrote: »
    Hey don't get me wrong I'm a good person I just don't think it's possible to be 100% sin free in the modern world. As someone once said if I accidentally fall against my keyboard and it happens to cause the words "free online pron" to be entered into google, and then in my rush to close the browser I mistakenly click on the first link in the search results and breath a sigh of relief when I spot that the site is actually a pay site but as I turn in my chair my wallet happens to fall out of my pocket onto the keyboard, my credit card bounces out and over the number key pad and somehow enters my details and submits the form. Well that could lead to more than one sin despite my general good nature.

    and youd better not work on a sunday

    or think about scoring a married woman


  • #70
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    PDN wrote: »
    So far we have atheists who think that spending eternity doing stuff that is exciting and fulfilling will be horrible.

    Then we have other atheists who think that spending eternity tormented in hell will be just grand because their mates will be there.

    Then the rest of the atheists would rather engage in an off-topic debate about free will and original sin.

    That's right PDN. And we have:

    christians who clearly haven't thought about how long eternity will actually turn out to be. Or that somehow its implications will not matter thanks to some sort of divine conjuring trick.

    Other christians ranting insensibly about circular time.

    Yet more christians claiming they will receive a personality overhaul to render them capable of eternal happiness.

    A number of christians who are quite happy to engage in the off topic debate about free will.

    And yet more christians disagreeing whether they will experience the afterlife in heaven as spirit beings, or on earth with overhauled bodies that will allow them to play the saxophone. Although we aren't told whether these bodies will be fully functional. Will they be capable of sex, for example? Will they eat, and if so, will they excrete, who will clean the toilets, and will they smile, eternally blissful, as they wield the brush?

    Toilets need plumbers, of course, so will the plumbers get paid or do it for love? If they're paid, there must presumably be a financial system, so we have to wonder whether the afterlife will be organized along capitalist free market lines? Will there be a welfare state? Will there be rich and poor?

    The unanswered questions just go on and on. Then again, I suppose finding out gives you something to look forward to.


  • #71
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    rockbeer wrote: »
    The unanswered questions just go on and on. Then again, I suppose finding out gives you something to look forward to.
    Yes, like my co-religionists Copernicus and Galileo I am not daunted by unanswered questions. Nor do I feel the need to create an 'atheism of the gaps'. :)


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  • #72
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    rockbeer wrote: »
    That's right PDN. And we have: <snip>

    And one atheist who thinks it probably wouldn't be so bad, and wishes people wouldn't put words in his mouth.


  • #73
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    And one atheist who thinks it probably wouldn't be so bad, and wishes people wouldn't put words in his mouth.

    Since you quoted me I assume this is aimed at me. If so, and you feel that I have inadvertently put words in your mouth, then I apologize, although I'm not at all sure to what you're referring.


  • #74
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    If you die right now where are you going...you all seem to think hell is bearable and a big party and yet you all know how you hate intense cold or heat and that is nothing in comparison to what awaits those who reject Christ
    p.s. PDN I can post what I like...how I like so build a bridge and get over it


  • #75
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    rockbeer wrote: »
    Since you quoted me I assume this is aimed at me. If so, and you feel that I have inadvertently put words in your mouth, then I apologize, although I'm not at all sure to what you're referring.

    Well I wasn't being totally serious, and it was more aimed at PDN's original quote, but yours was closer to hand and they were obviously both on the same theme. 'pologies.


  • #76
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    sukikettle wrote: »
    If you die right now where are you going...you all seem to think hell is bearable and a big party and yet you all know how you hate intense cold or heat and that is nothing in comparison to what awaits those who reject Christ
    p.s. PDN I can post what I like...how I like so build a bridge and get over it

    Um...PDN's the moderator. He decides what's ok to post on this forum - not you.


  • #77
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    Christian = ;)
    Aethiest = :eek::mad::confused:


  • #78
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    And that means??
    are you mommy in here


  • #79
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    sukikettle wrote: »
    If you die right now where are you going...you all seem to think hell is bearable and a big party and yet you all know how you hate intense cold or heat and that is nothing in comparison to what awaits those who reject Christ

    youre only a christian coz youre from a country where christianity is a mainstream religion

    if you were born in iran youd be a muslim, and telling people the same things about islam

    how does that make you feel?


  • #80
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    I love Hatter but I don't like him


  • #81
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    Um...PDN's the moderator. He decides what's ok to post on this forum - not you.
    LoL :pac:

    I'll bet Suki gets lippy with the cops too :)


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  • #82
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    Helix you can't even pretend to be vexed with God you haven't even read His book...you don't know what you're talking about. It would be cool to read a post from someone who's made a sound conclusion after having read it. Short of that your anti-God rhetoric is hypocritical


  • #83
    Deicida
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭Deicida


    sukikettle wrote: »
    ...you all seem to think hell is bearable and a big party and yet you all know how you hate intense cold or heat and that is nothing in comparison to what awaits those who reject Christ

    If by "you all" you mean Atheists then I think most of us would put Satan and Hell in a similar category to Santa and his work shop in the North Pole.


  • #84
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    Hatter and Rockbeer and a few others need to go to the Vatican for a well-earned holiday


  • #85
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    sukikettle wrote: »
    Helix you can't even pretend to be vexed with God you haven't even read His book...you don't know what you're talking about. It would be cool to read a post from someone who's made a sound conclusion after having read it. Short of that your anti-God rhetoric is hypocritical

    i have read the bible :confused:

    and its on my to read list again shortly


  • #86
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    sukikettle wrote: »
    I love Hatter but I don't like him

    Oh, hey, that hurts. I've been nothing but fair to you.


  • #87
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    Deicida if you think Satan is ficticious then we can all be rest assured your motives for your posting were all your own...


  • #88
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    sukikettle wrote: »
    you all seem to think hell is bearable

    By definition it must be bearable, since it is eternal. If it were unbearable it would end, no?

    Ultimately eternal suffering without respite is as meaningless as eternal bliss. They are relative concepts to each other; each without the other will lose all value and simply become 'normality'.

    Of course it's all purely hypothetical and not worth getting too worked up over.


  • #89
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    Hatter by what do you mean fair and who governs your morals dude?


  • #90
    sukikettle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭sukikettle


    Rockbeer I bet you're a pain in the proverbials in real life. What horse dung are you spouting on about. Do you talk like that in real life


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  • #91
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    sukikettle wrote: »
    Hatter by what do you mean fair and who governs your morals dude?

    I mean that I haven't attacked you or posted anything intended to cause you hurt. I also tried to give you a friendly warning that telling PDN how to run his forum might lead you to be banned (again?).

    As to who governs my morals - a combination of society and rationality, the same as everyone else, including you. In fact, if you only acted morally on the basis of your eternal reward/punishment, then I would think of you as quite an immoral person. You make a lot of presumptions about the people who you talk to on this board, which some would find insulting.

    Now can we please stop with this off-topic nonsense?


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