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Would you really like to live forever?

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  • #32
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Yes, if I could be in perfect health and look my current age (21).


  • #33
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Dades wrote: »
    Which of course begs the question; why bother with the whole unequal, cruel, painful world to begin with if you are capable of creating a utopia where everyone is happy all the time..?
    That is the big one, isn't it.

    MrP


  • #34
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dades wrote: »
    Which of course begs the question; why bother with the whole unequal, cruel, painful world to begin with if you are capable of creating a utopia where everyone is happy all the time..?
    God didn't create the cruelty/pain/inequality etc. We did.

    My answer to the question is that our free-will needs to be tested. The angels were tested also. Seems to me that God wants us to demonstrate to Him whether we are essentially on the side of good or evil. I can't think of any other reason for putting us on earth instead of heaven.


  • #35
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Seems to me that God wants us to demonstrate to Him whether we are essentially on the side of good or evil

    and unless youre christian youre on the side of evil?


  • #36
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    But why did god create evil in the first place?

    MrP


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  • #37
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    MrPudding wrote: »
    But why did god create evil in the first place?

    MrP

    yeah, id like to know why too

    he created everything, he controls everything, he knows everything, and he still cant control evil or satan... does that make satan more powerful than god or is it a get out of jail free card?


  • #38
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Helix wrote: »
    yeah, id like to know why too

    he created everything, he controls everything, he knows everything, and he still cant control evil or satan... does that make satan more powerful than god or is it a get out of jail free card?

    Well, he seems to have made a few fairly big errors in creation - he creates angels without free will and a bunch of them still rebel; and then he goes for mark II (us), and we start doing horrible things like eating fruit and wearing clothes.


  • #39
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Apparently evil is the corollary of free will. Or something.

    In order for our choice to be good to be meaningful we must have the choice to be bad.

    But that doesn't apply in the afterlife, where it will be perfectly fine for us to be denied free will thus ensuring that eternity is a satisfactory experience for all.


  • #40
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    rockbeer wrote: »
    In order for our choice to be good to be meaningful we must have the choice to be bad

    but if god created the rules, then why didnt he make it that for our choices to be good and meaningful we DIDNT need the choice to be bad. i mean, he wrote the rulebook and decided the way everything is, so it was his call to make it like that


  • #41
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Er, I guess he just preferred it that way.

    Although it does suggest the question of whether god is enforcing some abstract rules of good and evil that exist outside of himself - in which case there is something greater than god - or whether he made those rules up all by himself, in which case we are indeed hapless victims of his twisted sense of humour.


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  • #42
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    I don't think there would be any sense of time in heaven. if we are going to a spirit world that is not governed by normal physical rules, then why would we have the space time boundaries that we have in this life?


  • #43
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I don't think there would be any sense of time in heaven. if we are going to a spirit world that is not governed by normal physical rules, then why would we have the space time boundaries that we have in this life?

    if theres no sense of time how do you move?


  • #44
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Helix wrote: »
    but if god created the rules, then why didnt he make it that for our choices to be good and meaningful we DIDNT need the choice to be bad. i mean, he wrote the rulebook and decided the way everything is, so it was his call to make it like that

    But sure what good would that do us as people? Yay we're all good people wahey. Isn't it better for humans to have free will and see what they do with it? Nobody is born bad or good, it is all about our choices. I believe we're here on the earth to learn these things.

    If God made us all inherently good, he would have nothing to judge, which is kind of the point of him isn't it?


  • #45
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    But sure what good would that do us as people? Yay we're all good people wahey. Isn't it better for humans to have free will and see what they do with it? Nobody is born bad or good, it is all about our choices. I believe we're here on the earth to learn these things.

    If God made us all inherently good, he would have nothing to judge, which is kind of the point of him isn't it?

    i might be wrong, but doesnt christianity say we're all born with original sin, which makes us bad unless we're baptised and absolved of it?

    why would god build people to judge, when theyre just a reflection of his skill at chemistry? surely by judging us hes only judging how good a job he did? maybe thats why hes such a bastard in the old testament, coz he made a balls of it and is freaking out wondering where he went wrong

    doesnt really make for an all powerful overlord tho


  • #46
    ElCrapula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭ElCrapula


    kelly1 wrote: »
    This is a view of hell that is disturbingly common. Where do people get the idea that hell is some kind of free-for-all sex drugs and rock-and-roll party?

    Theistic Satanists for example seem to believe that by worshipping Satan, they will earn some kind of reward like a managerial position. What a crock of sh*t! All they'll get is added suffering and misery! There is no pleasure in hell, it's nothing but pain and misery. Anyone who thinks hell will be great 'craic' has bought into a lie.

    Anyone who has bought into heaven,and the idea of eternal paradise has been sold the very same lie.


    kelly1 wrote: »
    God didn't create the cruelty/pain/inequality etc. We did.

    My answer to the question is that our free-will needs to be tested. The angels were tested also. Seems to me that God wants us to demonstrate to Him whether we are essentially on the side of good or evil. I can't think of any other reason for putting us on earth instead of heaven.


    I didnt ask to be born or tested and if thats why Im here I have more than a sense of resentment about it.He should have consulted with me before and asked me if I was willing to play the game,I would have told him where to go.I dont want to play some sick game where Im born a sinner and asked to spend my life atoning for that sin.In the words of someone far greater than me,to be born sick and commanded to be well.Doesnt sound like the action of someone who loves me.


  • #47
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    MrPudding wrote: »
    But why did god create evil in the first place?

    MrP
    How many times do you have to be told that God does not create evil? God allows the possibility of evil as a consequence of giving us free will. Clear?

    It's frustrating to hear this repeated. It's like a creationist saying that evolution is totally random.


  • #48
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    ElCrapula wrote: »
    I didnt ask to be born or tested and if thats why Im here I have more than a sense of resentment about it.He should have consulted with me before and asked me if I was willing to play the game,I would have told him where to go.
    Life is not a game. We're not lab rats in God's great experiment.

    We make choices every minute of every day and we can choose good or evil. We have a conscience, don't we? God is never to blame for our bad choices.
    ElCrapula wrote: »
    I dont want to play some sick game where Im born a sinner and asked to spend my life atoning for that sin.
    Well choose not to sin and you won't have to atone for it. Sin necessarily always involves choice. There is nothing in our nature that compels us to sin and every temptation can be resisted if the will is there to avoid sin. Some day this will become abundantly clear to all of us.

    Come judgment day, nobody will have a leg to stand on in trying to justify sin.


  • #49
    ElCrapula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭ElCrapula


    kelly1 wrote: »


    Well choose not to sin and you won't have to atone for it. Sin necessarily always involves choice. There is nothing in our nature that compels us to sin and every temptation can be resisted if the will is there to avoid sin. Some day this will become abundantly clear to all of us.

    Come judgment day, nobody will have a leg to stand on in trying to justify sin.

    Chose not to sin?I was born with original sin,something I had no choice in,and continue sinning because I refuse to believe such rubbish.I renounce the idea of god 100%.
    If Im wrong,may he strike you down,LOL.


  • #50
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    kelly1 wrote: »
    How many times do you have to be told that God does not create evil? God allows the possibility of evil as a consequence of giving us free will. Clear?

    but god made it that way, if hes all powerful he could have made it otherwise

    or are you saying he didnt have that ability?


  • #51
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    kelly1 wrote: »
    We make choices every minute of every day and we can choose good or evil. We have a conscience, don't we? God is never to blame for our bad choices.

    if god created everything, and created us how we are, then he is to blame, and to thank, for every single thing that happens in his universe. you cant have him being an all powerful god and the creator of every single thing if everything that happens doesnt fall within the rules he made, and within the possibilities he allows
    kelly1 wrote: »
    There is nothing in our nature that compels us to sin

    of course there is, you only have to look at nature to see that. apply "sins" to animals and youll see that nature doesnt play by that rulebook


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  • #52
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    ElCrapula wrote: »
    Chose not to sin?I was born with original sin,something I had no choice in,and continue sinning because I refuse to believe such rubbish.I renounce the idea of god 100%.
    If Im wrong,may he strike you down,LOL.

    100%, eh?
    Helix wrote: »
    but god made it that way, if hes all powerful he could have made it otherwise

    or are you saying he didnt have that ability?

    Now would be the time to ask if God can create a square circle!


  • #53
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    ElCrapula wrote: »
    Chose not to sin?I was born with original sin,something I had no choice in,and continue sinning because I refuse to believe such rubbish.I renounce the idea of god 100%.
    If Im wrong,may he strike you down,LOL.
    Original sin is not actual sin. There's no associated guilt. It's the deprivation of justification through lack of sanctifying grace. This leaves us with a choice to make and the ability to gain merit by choosing good and rejecting evil.
    Helix wrote: »
    but god made it that way, if hes all powerful he could have made it otherwise

    or are you saying he didnt have that ability?
    Of course God has the ability. But do you understand all the implications of creating sinless beings versus beings with free-will? Do you know better than God? God did the same with the angels too. Some rebelled against their Creator despite their superior intelligence and the presence of God.

    For one thing, the ability to accept God's will and reject evil gives us the ability to gain merit and be rewarded with a higher degree of glory in heaven.
    (The first shall be last and the last first...).


  • #54
    ElCrapula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭ElCrapula


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    100%, eh?


    Figure of speech,Im probably 90%,but prefer to go the extra ten so no one can accuse me of being a limp wrist.I like to think the extra ten is a badge of honour to my courage in conviction.


  • #55
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course God has the ability. But do you understand all the implications of creating sinless beings versus beings with free-will? Do you know better than God? God did the same with the angels too. Some rebelled against their Creator despite their superior intelligence and the presence of God.

    For one thing, the ability to accept God's will and reject evil gives us the ability to gain merit and be rewarded with a higher degree of glory in heaven.
    (The first shall be last and the last first...).

    there are only implications of creating sinless beings WITH free will because of the limitations god imposed while creating the universe. if he created it all from scratch, then he could surely have created free will and no evil to exist together

    the universe as it stands is by his rules, if you accept that he is the creator, so if theyre his rules, he came up with them, and could have easily (one would imagine, with him being all powerful) had them any way imaginable (and infinite ways unimaginable)

    youre again falling into the same pitfall here, youre saying on the one hand that god created everything, and then saying that he HAD to create it a certain way

    the only thing that wouldve compelled him to do anything a certain way would be the existance of a more powerful force than god, which forced his hand in a certain way, which then negates god as an all powerful creator

    secondly, gods will has nothing to do with morality. religious people have throughout the ages committed heinous crimes against mankind, and similarly non believers in your god have done great things. religion does not make right and it does not make wrong. society creates what is acceptable and what is not. today there are many things you would consider a sin which were fine and dandy in jesus's time, and which werent spoken out against as being a sin in the bible


  • #56
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    How many times do you have to be told that God does not create evil? God allows the possibility of evil as a consequence of giving us free will. Clear?
    It still doesn't answer why would he give us free will, and allow horrible things to happen, when he can create a utopia that has none of that.

    Nor how being born into a famine-struck village only to die of starvation or of some natural disaster endows any form of "free will" on them. The only thing free to those people is to suffer by virtue of their geographical position, or indeed at the hands of some brainwashed youth with a machete exercising his own free will.

    "Sorry about your hands, mate, I had to know how the guy with the machete was going to exercise his free will. You'll get your hands back in heaven, we just have procedures, you know. Oh wait, you're not a Christian. Sorry!".


  • #57
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Dades wrote: »
    It still doesn't answer why would he give us free will, and allow horrible things to happen, when he can create a utopia that has none of that.

    Nor how being born into a famine-struck village only to die of starvation or of some natural disaster endows any form of "free will" on them. The only thing free to those people is to suffer by virtue of their geographical position, or indeed at the hands of some brainwashed youth with a machete exercising his own free will.

    "Sorry about your hands, mate, I had to know how the guy with the machete was going to exercise his free will. You'll get your hands back in heaven, we just have procedures, you know. Oh wait, you're not a Christian. Sorry!".

    Without meaning to drag this of topic too much, Christians argue that He has created a utopia.

    As for being born into a famine riddled country or finding yourself on the wrong end of a machete chop (is there a 'right' end?), the consequences of such disregard and brutality lies squarely at our feet. Admittedly natural disasters or illness are a different kettle of fish and probably are best discussed on another thread.


  • #58
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    So, to summarise.

    So far we have atheists who think that spending eternity doing stuff that is exciting and fulfilling will be horrible.

    Then we have other atheists who think that spending eternity tormented in hell will be just grand because their mates will be there.

    Then the rest of the atheists would rather engage in an off-topic debate about free will and original sin.

    Just another day in the Christianity forum.


  • #59
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Without meaning to drag this of topic too much, Christians argue that He has created a utopia.
    I think this is a big part of the OPs question, no?

    As in what kind of utopia can God create that would entice you to want to spend eternity there. I think answer for me is given what he is credited with already, I don't think I'd want to sign up.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    As for being born into a famine riddled country or finding yourself on the wrong end of a machete chop (is there a 'right' end?), the consequences of such disregard and brutality lies squarely at our feet. Admittedly natural disasters or illness are a different kettle of fish and probably are best discussed on another thread.
    Well, I just don't think it's fair to lay the blame at everyone's feet, except the one person who actually created the whole mess.

    But I think the points in general are relevant to the question of whether or not utopia is possible, or just a concept. And they are certainly relevant if some was to suggest that God has already created a utopia!!


  • #60
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I'm curious.

    How do we avoid being a sinner? Is it just the 10 biggies we have to avoid or are there several others?

    Do we get promoted from Hell to Heaven if the current pope changes certain sins to not be sins?

    If not there must surely be a huge bunch of disgruntled folks in Hell these days who cut grass on Sunday or something only to see their sin down-graded a few hundred years later.

    Then again if time has no meaning in Heaven how do changes in sins as decreed by the Vatican carry over into Heaven? Can I ask the book-keepers at the pearly gates to check the space time continuum to see if the Vatican decided contraception was not a sin at some point after my death?

    Is it possible that modern marriages involve incredible levels of abstention these days or are family sizes down due to sinning? If so Hell will be over-booked. Maybe the Vatican changes the rules form time to time to balance the numbers?


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  • #61
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    musician wrote: »
    I'm curious.

    How do we avoid being a sinner? Is it just the 10 biggies we have to avoid or are there several others??
    Dont approch life as a bunch of don'ts, you'll be miserable.
    Think of life as a do, do follow Christ and His lead for your life. Your propensity for sin will diminish and the good you do will be very gratifying to you and those you associate with.
    musician wrote: »
    Do we get promoted from Hell to Heaven if the current pope changes certain sins to not be sins??
    No.
    musician wrote: »
    If not there must surely be a huge bunch of disgruntled folks in Hell these days who cut grass on Sunday or something only to see their sin down-graded a few hundred years later.

    Then again if time has no meaning in Heaven how do changes in sins as decreed by the Vatican carry over into Heaven? Can I ask the book-keepers at the pearly gates to check the space time continuum to see if the Vatican decided contraception was not a sin at some point after my death?

    Is it possible that modern marriages involve incredible levels of abstention these days or are family sizes down due to sinning? If so Hell will be over-booked. Maybe the Vatican changes the rules form time to time to balance the numbers?

    The Vatican hasn't the authority to pardon or Bless, only God can do that.


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