Would you really like to live forever?

rockbeer

Emerging out of the "what was god doing?" thread is this question of whether people really, genuinely like the idea of eternal life.

It seems to me that it could get a bit grim after a couple of billion years, but others seem to genuinely relish the prospect. So... in the spirit of genuine curiosity, I'd like to know who can honestly imagine themselves being happy to live forever?

Remember before you answer that eternity is an awful long time. Think of the biggest number you can. How many years is that? Now double it. Now multiply it by itself. And again. And now multiply it by the number you originally thought of squared. How many years do you have now?

Now multiply those by the speed of light. A billion times.

Now do it all again...

...remembering, you're still not even close to eternity.

Honest answers only please.

The Mad Hatter

Ack, I typed a response to this and it got eaten by my connection.

Basically, I think an eternity of infinite happiness is very different from any idea of eternal life we'd have here. I'm fairly sure that boredom would be one of the things eliminated by living in heaven, along with sadness, anger, etc., etc.

sukikettle

Do I smell a change of heart;)

sukikettle

First of all Rockbeer it beats eternal damnation and secondly time will cease to exist and you will have no concept of billions of years spent in Heaven

ElCrapula

Id certainly like to be around for a while longer than is granted now,but Id never take the eternal option.
As for heaven and hell,gimme hell.All the mad bastards would be there,much better craic.
God doesnt seem like the nicest fella around,bit of a dictator.Id reckon the Devil would let you do what you wanted,not as many rules.

The Mad Hatter

Do I smell a change of heart

From me? No, just because I think an idea's nice doesn't mean I believe it's true. Frankly I'd love for it to be true, but everything I've ever seen has suggested to me that the only possibility of a creator figure is one who set the universe into motion at the very beginning and then sat back to watch it unfold (which I admit is an idea I quite like). Sort of a cosmic Brian Eno.

Helix

what would happen if joe bloggs, a devout christian who never sinned in his life, didnt actually want to have immortality in his afterlife? if that was his idea of torture, shall we say

any exception to the rules for joe? since the idea of heaven is one of joy and ever lasting life for all, what happens to those who could find no joy in immortality?

sukikettle

El Crap you will eat your words one day and they will taste every bit as good as your user name and Madhatter Eve was banished from the garden for those exact sentiments. We cannot be mini gods. You are not independant of God no matter how much you think you are. He made you whether you believe it or not and there does not exist a plane of true inner peace without Him.

The Mad Hatter

sukikettle wrote: »

Madhatter Eve was banished from the garden for those exact sentiments. We cannot be mini gods. You are not independant of God no matter how much you think you are. He made you whether you believe it or not and there does not exist a plane of true inner peace without Him.

Huh? Eve was banished for eating an apple, wasn't she?

sukikettle

Helix it doesn't matter if you never sin. If you reject eternity you reject Christ. A life of good works is meaningless without faith so your question voids itself

rockbeer

sukikettle wrote: »

time will cease to exist and you will have no concept of billions of years spent in Heaven

Source?

sukikettle

No Hatter, she entertained the idea of knowing as much as God in the eating of the fruit (no where does it state apple btw) she wanted more than the complete and perfect provision made for her and Adam by God the father

The Mad Hatter

rockbeer wrote: »

Source?

The Bible. Duh.

No Hatter, she entertained the idea of knowing as much as God in the eating of the fruit (no where does it state apple btw) she wanted more than the complete and perfect provision made for her and Adam by God the father

Yes, I was being flippant. Where did I say I knew as much as God? That's not even implied in my post. Also, how can you have more that what's complete?

sukikettle

Christ stated Rockbeer that he is the alpha and the omega. That is a statement outside of time...a neverending circle of creation and as God speaks He creates, He also says His Word never returns to Him void. That is why scientists say the universe is expanding still. It must because He is a God of creation and his love is unlimited

sukikettle

a desire to exist without God is foolish as He made you and it is the same desire Satan had that got him thrown out.We cannot exist as equals in that sense it is gross and blasphemous. We are partakers of an inheritance and that is very different-those in Christ that is

rockbeer

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Basically, I think an eternity of infinite happiness is very different from any idea of eternal life we'd have here. I'm fairly sure that boredom would be one of the things eliminated by living in heaven, along with sadness, anger, etc., etc.

So it's basically personality transplants for all before we get started then. Fair enough, but people will be unrecognizable without their emotions.

But how can true happiness exist without some pain to contrast it against? Everybody will surely settle down into an endless eternal normality after a while. Or will they end up like Nigella Lawson, with horrible fake smiles continuously plastered across their faces in a terrible parody of genuine happiness?

rockbeer

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

The Bible. Duh.

Well, I was hoping for something a little more explicit. Maybe even chapter and verse. Unfortunately what I got was:

sukikettle wrote:

Christ stated Rockbeer that he is the alpha and the omega. That is a statement outside of time...a neverending circle of creation and as God speaks He creates, He also says His Word never returns to Him void. That is why scientists say the universe is expanding still. It must because He is a God of creation and his love is unlimited

which I think is somewhat less than unambiguous.

sukikettle

If anyone here bothered to read the bible you would know of the magnificent city that will replace Jerusalem and of the new earth and how He rules during His second coming with a rod of iron and how as partakers we will rule with Him. He is not a sullen angry ineffectual god. You've been deceived vastly. He is a God of love and mercy and forgiveness and healing and prosperity and He will not indwell you unless you invite Him and acknowledge what His Son did

sukikettle

The Nigella comment is not bright stuff and why don't you read the bible for chapter and verse yourself. I don't know it off by heart. I read it every day and what I quote is what I've seen printed there and you're welcome to contradict me if you're able! I'm not here to convince you to save your life. I'm the same as you but with joy and hope and expectation

The Mad Hatter

rockbeer wrote: »

So it's basically personality transplants for all before we get started then. Fair enough, but people will be unrecognizable without their emotions.

Good point, but I'm not sure I agree. You know that feeling you get at the start of a relationship? Imagine having that all the time. I don't think it's be beyond the powers of a perfect being to turn off the normalising switch.

That said, I also don't think it'd be beyond its power to create a world without suffering.

sukikettle

I witnessed the lord do miracles one after the other today. Impossible odds miracles and I was astonished and I know He is real. How many of you can claim this. Have you ever had real joy that cannot be snatched from you. I have. I've had big trials this Christmas and I can claim all of the above despite this. Imagine living like that. It's another realm and you cannot equate it with anything you know. You cannot compare Him. He is incomparable and beyond our very tiny human mind.

sukikettle

Hatter there shouldn't be any good at all, we've fallen so far but there is by His grace and mercy there is...what are you doing to alleviate suffering are you smiling when you should. Are you sharing what you have. Does someone need you right now. Do you need to forgive someone and set you and him free?

sukikettle

His Son endured an horrific death for you and me...He took our punishment to redeem us. He paid for you. You cost God His Son and He would have done it if there was only you. His love is incomprehensible

MrPudding

sukikettle wrote: »

I witnessed the lord do miracles one after the other today. Impossible odds miracles and I was astonished and I know He is real. How many of you can claim this.

I am going to go ahead and say none. I would include you in that figure.

MrP

PDN

sukikettle, it would be better if you wrote one post addressing the subject of the thread rather than a string of short posts. The purpose of this board is to discuss Christian issues, not to preach at everybody.

Helix

sukikettle wrote: »

Helix it doesn't matter if you never sin. If you reject eternity you reject Christ. A life of good works is meaningless without faith so your question voids itself

i draw your attention to the first sentence in the post

Helix wrote: »

what would happen if joe bloggs, a devout christian who never sinned in his life, didnt actually want to have immortality in his afterlife? if that was his idea of torture, shall we say

any exception to the rules for joe? since the idea of heaven is one of joy and ever lasting life for all, what happens to those who could find no joy in immortality?

Helix

sukikettle wrote: »

He is not a sullen angry ineffectual god. He is a God of love and mercy and forgiveness and healing and prosperity

sukikettle wrote: »

His love is incomprehensible

unless of course you dont worship him and tell everyone how great he is, and that hes definitely the only god and the billions who worship other gods will burn in hell for having the misfortune to be born into lives in places where belief in your god is neither taught, nor spoken of. yet your god will punish these people for being born where he decided they should be born... in a place where faith in him is not known

that seems at odds with the actions of a god of love and merch and forgiveness and healing and prosperity whos love is incomprehensible

robindch

rockbeer wrote: »

who can honestly imagine themselves being happy to live forever?

I certainly can't, in fact, under many conditions that I can think of, I'd imagine that living forever and being aware of that fact could be classed as an elegant form of torture.

Though if one claimed that dead people had poor memories -- for example, showing up at St Paul's house for afternoon tea and forgetting what happened the previous billion times one did -- then I suppose it could be bearable. But that kind of suggests a bizarre world filled with people suffering from longterm Alzheimers.

Alternatively, if one is happy with a jack-in-the-box solution, then you could claim that gods just rewires people's brains, or the metaphysical analogs of brains, so that they experience for "eternal happiness" and leave it at that -- a celestial version of The Truman Show.

There are plenty of other solutions that might make eternity bearable, but frankly, if one is going to expect the Platonic ideal of perfect memory in the metaphysical world, then eternity could turn out to be one hell of a long time.

MrPudding

I think living forever could be the most exquisite torture. I like the idea of the Ian M Banks Culture type immortality. People duck in and out. Go to sleep for a few millennia or cause themselves to cease altogether.

That would actually be interesting, on the basic that you could duck in and out or indeed choose to end it completely. The living forever on a newly created earth sounds a bit creepy to me, and I think that it will be full of people that I really would not like to spend five minutes with. Of course, I am sure they would not want to spend five minutes with me either, and that is fine. Besides, even if it was true, I doubt I will be going there anyway.

MrP

kelly1

ElCrapula wrote: »

As for heaven and hell,gimme hell.All the mad bastards would be there,much better craic.
God doesnt seem like the nicest fella around,bit of a dictator.Id reckon the Devil would let you do what you wanted,not as many rules.

This is a view of hell that is disturbingly common. Where do people get the idea that hell is some kind of free-for-all sex drugs and rock-and-roll party?

Theistic Satanists for example seem to believe that by worshipping Satan, they will earn some kind of reward like a managerial position. What a crock of sh*t! All they'll get is added suffering and misery! There is no pleasure in hell, it's nothing but pain and misery. Anyone who thinks hell will be great 'craic' has bought into a lie.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Alternatively, if one is happy with a jack-in-the-box solution, then you could claim that gods just rewires people's brains, or the metaphysical analogs of brains, so that they experience for "eternal happiness" and leave it at that -- a celestial version of The Truman Show.

Which of course begs the question; why bother with the whole unequal, cruel, painful world to begin with if you are capable of creating a utopia where everyone is happy all the time..?

Black Swan

Yes, if I could be in perfect health and look my current age (21).

MrPudding

Dades wrote: »

Which of course begs the question; why bother with the whole unequal, cruel, painful world to begin with if you are capable of creating a utopia where everyone is happy all the time..?

That is the big one, isn't it.

MrP

kelly1

Dades wrote: »

Which of course begs the question; why bother with the whole unequal, cruel, painful world to begin with if you are capable of creating a utopia where everyone is happy all the time..?

God didn't create the cruelty/pain/inequality etc. We did.

My answer to the question is that our free-will needs to be tested. The angels were tested also. Seems to me that God wants us to demonstrate to Him whether we are essentially on the side of good or evil. I can't think of any other reason for putting us on earth instead of heaven.

Helix

kelly1 wrote: »

Seems to me that God wants us to demonstrate to Him whether we are essentially on the side of good or evil

and unless youre christian youre on the side of evil?

MrPudding

But why did god create evil in the first place?

MrP

Helix

MrPudding wrote: »

But why did god create evil in the first place?

MrP

yeah, id like to know why too

he created everything, he controls everything, he knows everything, and he still cant control evil or satan... does that make satan more powerful than god or is it a get out of jail free card?

The Mad Hatter

Helix wrote: »

yeah, id like to know why too

he created everything, he controls everything, he knows everything, and he still cant control evil or satan... does that make satan more powerful than god or is it a get out of jail free card?

Well, he seems to have made a few fairly big errors in creation - he creates angels without free will and a bunch of them still rebel; and then he goes for mark II (us), and we start doing horrible things like eating fruit and wearing clothes.

rockbeer

Apparently evil is the corollary of free will. Or something.

In order for our choice to be good to be meaningful we must have the choice to be bad.

But that doesn't apply in the afterlife, where it will be perfectly fine for us to be denied free will thus ensuring that eternity is a satisfactory experience for all.

Helix

rockbeer wrote: »

In order for our choice to be good to be meaningful we must have the choice to be bad

but if god created the rules, then why didnt he make it that for our choices to be good and meaningful we DIDNT need the choice to be bad. i mean, he wrote the rulebook and decided the way everything is, so it was his call to make it like that

rockbeer

Er, I guess he just preferred it that way.

Although it does suggest the question of whether god is enforcing some abstract rules of good and evil that exist outside of himself - in which case there is something greater than god - or whether he made those rules up all by himself, in which case we are indeed hapless victims of his twisted sense of humour.

midlandsmissus

I don't think there would be any sense of time in heaven. if we are going to a spirit world that is not governed by normal physical rules, then why would we have the space time boundaries that we have in this life?

Helix

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I don't think there would be any sense of time in heaven. if we are going to a spirit world that is not governed by normal physical rules, then why would we have the space time boundaries that we have in this life?

if theres no sense of time how do you move?

midlandsmissus

Helix wrote: »

but if god created the rules, then why didnt he make it that for our choices to be good and meaningful we DIDNT need the choice to be bad. i mean, he wrote the rulebook and decided the way everything is, so it was his call to make it like that

But sure what good would that do us as people? Yay we're all good people wahey. Isn't it better for humans to have free will and see what they do with it? Nobody is born bad or good, it is all about our choices. I believe we're here on the earth to learn these things.

If God made us all inherently good, he would have nothing to judge, which is kind of the point of him isn't it?

Helix

midlandsmissus wrote: »

But sure what good would that do us as people? Yay we're all good people wahey. Isn't it better for humans to have free will and see what they do with it? Nobody is born bad or good, it is all about our choices. I believe we're here on the earth to learn these things.

If God made us all inherently good, he would have nothing to judge, which is kind of the point of him isn't it?

i might be wrong, but doesnt christianity say we're all born with original sin, which makes us bad unless we're baptised and absolved of it?

why would god build people to judge, when theyre just a reflection of his skill at chemistry? surely by judging us hes only judging how good a job he did? maybe thats why hes such a bastard in the old testament, coz he made a balls of it and is freaking out wondering where he went wrong

doesnt really make for an all powerful overlord tho

ElCrapula

kelly1 wrote: »

This is a view of hell that is disturbingly common. Where do people get the idea that hell is some kind of free-for-all sex drugs and rock-and-roll party?

Theistic Satanists for example seem to believe that by worshipping Satan, they will earn some kind of reward like a managerial position. What a crock of sh*t! All they'll get is added suffering and misery! There is no pleasure in hell, it's nothing but pain and misery. Anyone who thinks hell will be great 'craic' has bought into a lie.

Anyone who has bought into heaven,and the idea of eternal paradise has been sold the very same lie.

kelly1 wrote: »

God didn't create the cruelty/pain/inequality etc. We did.

My answer to the question is that our free-will needs to be tested. The angels were tested also. Seems to me that God wants us to demonstrate to Him whether we are essentially on the side of good or evil. I can't think of any other reason for putting us on earth instead of heaven.

I didnt ask to be born or tested and if thats why Im here I have more than a sense of resentment about it.He should have consulted with me before and asked me if I was willing to play the game,I would have told him where to go.I dont want to play some sick game where Im born a sinner and asked to spend my life atoning for that sin.In the words of someone far greater than me,to be born sick and commanded to be well.Doesnt sound like the action of someone who loves me.

kelly1

MrPudding wrote: »

But why did god create evil in the first place?

MrP

How many times do you have to be told that God does not create evil? God allows the possibility of evil as a consequence of giving us free will. Clear?

It's frustrating to hear this repeated. It's like a creationist saying that evolution is totally random.

kelly1

ElCrapula wrote: »

I didnt ask to be born or tested and if thats why Im here I have more than a sense of resentment about it.He should have consulted with me before and asked me if I was willing to play the game,I would have told him where to go.

Life is not a game. We're not lab rats in God's great experiment.

We make choices every minute of every day and we can choose good or evil. We have a conscience, don't we? God is never to blame for our bad choices.

ElCrapula wrote: »

I dont want to play some sick game where Im born a sinner and asked to spend my life atoning for that sin.

Well choose not to sin and you won't have to atone for it. Sin necessarily always involves choice. There is nothing in our nature that compels us to sin and every temptation can be resisted if the will is there to avoid sin. Some day this will become abundantly clear to all of us.

Come judgment day, nobody will have a leg to stand on in trying to justify sin.

ElCrapula

kelly1 wrote: »

Well choose not to sin and you won't have to atone for it. Sin necessarily always involves choice. There is nothing in our nature that compels us to sin and every temptation can be resisted if the will is there to avoid sin. Some day this will become abundantly clear to all of us.

Come judgment day, nobody will have a leg to stand on in trying to justify sin.

Chose not to sin?I was born with original sin,something I had no choice in,and continue sinning because I refuse to believe such rubbish.I renounce the idea of god 100%.
If Im wrong,may he strike you down,LOL.

Helix

kelly1 wrote: »

How many times do you have to be told that God does not create evil? God allows the possibility of evil as a consequence of giving us free will. Clear?

but god made it that way, if hes all powerful he could have made it otherwise

or are you saying he didnt have that ability?

Helix

kelly1 wrote: »

We make choices every minute of every day and we can choose good or evil. We have a conscience, don't we? God is never to blame for our bad choices.

if god created everything, and created us how we are, then he is to blame, and to thank, for every single thing that happens in his universe. you cant have him being an all powerful god and the creator of every single thing if everything that happens doesnt fall within the rules he made, and within the possibilities he allows

kelly1 wrote: »

There is nothing in our nature that compels us to sin

of course there is, you only have to look at nature to see that. apply "sins" to animals and youll see that nature doesnt play by that rulebook