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Would you really like to live forever?
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BrianCalgary wrote: »Thanks PDN.
I'll have a Timmy's, you can have whatever coffee you wish.
No problem, it was worth it just to see my name in the same sentence as that of Moses. 0 -
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Poor logic really. You have decided that only god can be infinitely good, therefore anything else that is infinitely good must be a god. So you decided it is logically impossible is based on attributes that you have given to your god and limitations you have placed on its abilities.God, and God alone, is infinitely good. If He created anything else that was infinitely good then He would have created another God, which is logically impossible.
Again, this is based you your decision that the only thing that can be infinitely good is your god and that it does not have the power to fix your poor logic.If God created something that was anything less than infinitely good then it must, to a certain degree, be lacking goodness which equates to evil.
Yes, when you use poor logic and place arbitrary limits on your god’s power then yes, it is impossible.Therefore a Creation without some degree of evil is a logical impossibility.
There is evil in the world because the being that created the world allowed for the prospect of evil because he was unable to do it any other way, or he chose to allow evil.So, we may argue about why there is so much evil in the world, but not why evil is present in the first place.
I have actually been giving this a bit of thought, and it might be simplistic, but I think it comes down to marketing. Some atheists, like myself for example, would like to do more to help the less fortunate. I do what I can but can’t do more because I have a family to support. My job is not helping the less fortunate.One of the things that motivated me to explore Christianity was that, in my experience, atheists seemed to make a load of noises demanding to know why there was evil and suffering in the world, but it was religious people who actually got off their backsides and tried their best to reduce the evil and to alleviate the suffering. Numerous trips to the third world since then have only served to confirm that impression.
Organisations like yours need to gain new believers in order to expand. Without new recruits your church would whither and die. The third world is an excellent place to get new believers. They have crappy lives, which there is little hope of improving, and they are very likely to embrace something that tells them something better is waiting for them.
Now, I am not trying to belittle the work you do, but at the end of the day, charitable work carried out by religious organisations is simply a cost of doing business. It is simply marketing. Spending money to gain new recruits and therefore guarantee the continuation of your organisation.
I appreciate that this may be seen as cynical, but if you look at it objectively it kind of makes sense.
Atheist, on the other hand, have no organisations to expand. We don’t have global groups that need continual new recruits to keep alive. There is no money in atheism, and therefore no marketing budget.Anyway, now we seem to have 2 threads on theodicy. A case of being fruitful and multiplying?
MrP0 -
Of course an omnipotent God doesn't need anyone to grow or prepare the coffee.
Ah, so at last we know how god has been passing his time since finishing up the creation - he's been working as a baristaBut, FWIW, I personally think that there will be work in our eternal life. Part of eternal life, IMHO, would be where we all had jobs and tasks to do which we found meaningful and fulfilling.
But they will all be ultimately pointless since nobody has to do anything. It sounds to me like you really haven't thought this through at all. No need for coffee growers because god will provide it whenever you want one - except for the people who want to grow coffee because they find it meaningful and fulfilling. Nothing will be meaningful and fulfilling in that kind of world. At least not for ever.
Even skiing will be ultimately hollow and joyless, because there will be no risk and therefore no adrenaline rush.It may well be that Brian and I are totally wrong and there will be no coffee or skiing in heaven at all. I am reminded of when I was a little boy and I looked forward to being a grown up. I had made my mind up that I would eat nothing but Mars Bars, drink nothing but Fanta, and I would get a job in a circus because that seemed the most exciting thing on earth. Now I am a grey haired adult and I've discovered that there are things that turned out to be many times better than Mars Bars, Fanta or the circus. And that is probably how eternity will be - with Brian and I looking back and thinking how childish our expectations were when we were living in the temporal world.
Which is exactly the point I've been trying to make with my 'trivial questions'. However, this is promising. At least you recognize that it will turn out to be nothing like you imagine. That should prepare you to some extent for the shock of realizing you've been had. Except you'll be dead so it'll be too late.And as for those who say they wouldn't like eternity? We'll remember them as being like the boy who said, "I'm never going to grow up!"
On the contrary, you would do better to think of Peter Pan. Wanting to live forever - or believing that you will - is the ultimate failure to grow up.
I've also been wondering what these lovely chats in the afterlife will be like. Remember that there will be no atheists to disagree with. No one at all to disagree with about anything in fact.
"Isn't it great here?"
"Yes, it's great."
"Lovely weather again."
"Beautiful. About the same as yesterday."
"Ah, but isn't god a smashing bloke?"
"Top deity, couldn't wish for better."
[Pause]
"Enjoying your latte?"
"Lovely. Very like the last one."
"Did I ever tell you about the time I went to Florida?"
"Only 179,431,262,011 times."
[Sigh]
"Fancy another?"
"Why not. What's the rush?"0 -
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More low-level trolling.Ah, so at last we know how god has been passing his time since finishing up the creation - he's been working as a baristaBut they will all be ultimately pointless since nobody has to do anything. It sounds to me like you really haven't thought this through at all. No need for coffee growers because god will provide it whenever you want one - except for the people who want to grow coffee because they find it meaningful and fulfilling. Nothing will be meaningful and fulfilling in that kind of world. At least not for ever.
Even skiing will be ultimately hollow and joyless, because there will be no risk and therefore no adrenaline rush.
You can get satisfaction from something without 'having' to do it. I have an uncle who grows his own vegetables. I personally don't get the point, since you can buy equally good vegetables from Tesco. But I love the pleased look on his face when we eat his vegetables and tell him that they are just as good as the ones he could have bought for a euro in a supermarket.
As for there being no adrenaline rush - that is just more trivia. I think the God who created heaven and earth is incapable of giving our heavenly bodies as many adrenaline rushes as we can handle.
Yes, it will be like nothing I imagine because it will exceed my expectations. So you see that as 'being had'. Interesting.Which is exactly the point I've been trying to make with my 'trivial questions'. However, this is promising. At least you recognize that it will turn out to be nothing like you imagine. That should prepare you to some extent for the shock of realizing you've been had. Except you'll be dead so it'll be too late.
On Christmas Day my wife was expecting some perfume for her present. Instead I surprised her with a Hyundai Coupe. Her disappointment at 'being had' was a joy to behold.
It seems to me you are once again making the statement that you tried to deny earlier - that those who disagree with you about eternal life are, by definition, childish.On the contrary, you would do better to think of Peter Pan. Wanting to live forever - or believing that you will - is the ultimate failure to grow up.0 -
Humbled as we all are by your altruism (while we non-believers clearly laze around in decadence and sloth), none of the above holds any relevance to the question. What we all do when we're not sitting in front of computer monitors does not make the simple question - why does God allow evil - any less valid, no matter much you try to deflect it.One of the things that motivated me to explore Christianity was that, in my experience, atheists seemed to make a load of noises demanding to know why there was evil and suffering in the world, but it was religious people who actually got off their backsides and tried their best to reduce the evil and to alleviate the suffering. Numerous trips to the third world since then have only served to confirm that impression.
If the Christian concept of a benevolent God made any sense, we might have more Mother Teresas and less Gordon Geckos, so in truth you have to blame the initial project designers for creating such a hard sell in the first place. 0 -
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Thank you so much for pointing out my typo.
You're welcomeMaybe you should explain what you meant by 'being had'.
I'll return to this later.I mentioned growing up in an illustration that compared us all to children, not just one group.
You, however, referred in a previous post to people as 'childish' for believing in eternal life - then accused me of misrepresenting you by pointing out what you had said - and now you've repeated the statement.
1. To label those who hold a different opinion to you as 'childish' is disappointing, not to say contrary to the charter (insulting those who believe a basic Christian belief).
2. To then refuse to stand over your words when challenged is worse. (If you were really misrepresented then you could have clarified and explained what you really meant)
3. To then repeat the same insult is once again disappointing.
4. Then you deflect criticism by twisting someone else's words and saying "You did it too".
I think you should return to the thread in question, where you'll find that I did in fact attempt to clarify what I meant. Perhaps you missed it.
I stand over my comments entirely. You are the one who continues to insist that when I describe a characteristic as childish I label as childish the person who exhibits it.
I disagree. I can say that killing somebody is an evil act, but I don't accept that makes the person who does the killing 'evil'. We are all capable of evil acts, but that doesn't make us evil. And we all - in one way or another - exhibit childish characteristics. We are complex beings, and if I identify a certain trait as childish it is in the full knowledge that there are others which are mature and yet others that are somewhere in between.
The reason why I believe the desire to live forever in paradise to be a childish one is because in my view it is similar to other childlike or youthful characteristics such as not fully grasping the finality of death, wanting everything, feeling entitled to everything you want, and railing at the injustice of the world. It seems to me to be childish in the extreme to only be able to cope with the bleakness of much of this world by convincing yourself that there is another better one somewhere else. In my view it's also childish to invent a special club, whose members are the only ones who get to qualify for the special place. Sorry if it upsets you, but I just can't find a way to see these things as mature and considered responses to the reality around us.
So I hope that clarifies my position. I won't mention it again if you don't.0 -
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