Boards Referendum - English as the first language of Republic of Ireland

brianthebard · 06-12-2008 3:12am

GA361 wrote: »

Its the right video.I was just board and wanted to end that debate,I forget why I put that particular song,It's one of my favourites.My opinion.Today that constitution would be very conservative as btb said,but the message that I meant to get across was that it was a very liberal constitution for its time.One must Consider the wider European picture at the time Franco,Stalin,Hitler,Mussolini.None of the citizens in these countries had the same political freedom as was promised under Bunreacht na hÉirinn.That is the angle I was looking at it from.Twas a different world back then.
Enough of the serious talk.This is AH.What are your fav Highwaymen songs?
Mine are Silver Stallion,Highwayman,Living Legend and desperados wating for a train

Worst angle on the constitution ever. It was no way liberal, and the leaders you named did away with democracy, which has nothing to do with whether our constitution was liberal or not. considering it in light of the 1922 document however shows what a massive step backwards from liberal democracy it actually was.

kiffer · 06-12-2008 4:38am

Bob the Builder wrote: »

Personally, I say stop beating irish into people. That just makes people hate it from the minute they go to school. It's not a language anymore really - or even a sign of our heritage - it's a subject, which people hate, and a component of a CV.

They don't hate it from the minute they start it in school. It takes about a year or two, kids are fine learning vocab and are geneally ok and happy with using random irish words...
Then they start rote learning grammar/conjugation and start hating it...

Cunny-Funt · 06-12-2008 4:57am

Irish was my most hated subject in school. But at the same time...I AM Irish. In a way it kinda pains me that our language is not as common as it shouldbe.

I wish I knew the language tbh. But I had a horrible time in Irish class in school.

Riddle101 · 06-12-2008 5:48am

Why can't both English and Irish be our National Lanuage? I mean we pretty much use the both of them anyway.

06-12-2008 6:03am

Riddle101 wrote: »

Why can't both English and Irish be our National Lanuage? I mean we pretty much use the both of them anyway.

They are! the debate is which one comes first.

(there's a joke somewhere there)

Pride Fighter · 06-12-2008 6:45am

I voted yes. However I want Irish and English to both be recognised as first languages of the state.

Mark200 · 06-12-2008 12:15pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I voted yes. However I want Irish and English to both be recognised as first languages of the state.

English should come first. Feck "principle" and "heritage". Practicality is more important and giving the people the right to refuse speeding tickets or other legal documents because they aren't written in Irish is not practical.
Wasting our money on translating boring pointless stuff into Irish is not practical.

themadchef · 06-12-2008 12:30pm

Mark200 wrote: »

English should come first. Feck "principle" and "heritage". Practicality is more important and giving the people the right to refuse speeding tickets or other legal documents because they aren't written in Irish is not practical.
Wasting our money on translating boring pointless stuff into Irish is not practical.

This really saddens me. Why? because we are Irish! If people hate Irish fine, hate away. If people dont understand it, fine, no one's forcing adults to learn it as there ar always translations for everything

If we so desperately want to be someone else as a country, I.E english, then why not get shut of the government too while we're at it (because the're sure as hell not practical) unite the 32 and all hail the Queen!

Take away our language, take away our soul.

RandolphEsq · 06-12-2008 12:45pm

Hagar wrote: »

Remember you will have to keep voting until we get the result we want.

What do we want?

RandolphEsq · 06-12-2008 12:51pm

themadchef wrote: »

Take away our language, take away our soul.

But language is only a tool to communicate with each other. How can it give us an 'identity'?
Patriotism and national identity are championed by the simple mind. We should call ourselves Irish by virtue of where we live, NOT because of our history, NOT because of what 'Irish' people have 'been through'.
It is certainly more practical for us, and for all countries, to speak the one language

Mark200 · 06-12-2008 12:52pm

themadchef wrote: »

Take away our language, take away our soul.

Well this saddens me. Take away a language that vast majority can not speak, and this somehow takes away our soul?

Riight

I do not hate it. I kind of like the language. But it's pointless and good for nothing besides history

themadchef · 06-12-2008 12:57pm

BrightEyes wrote: »

We should call ourselves Irish by virtue of where we live

So if i grow up in Ireland and happen to live in France now im French?

RandolphEsq · 06-12-2008 1:02pm

themadchef wrote: »

So if i grow up in Ireland and happen to live in France now im French?

It depends on how you would define yourself

themadchef · 06-12-2008 1:14pm

BrightEyes wrote: »

It depends on how you would define yourself

Living in Ireland makes me no more Irish than the people who have left this place to work and make a life in another country.

Speaking Irish makes me no more Irish than my neighbour that cannot. I am Irish because I love this country, it's history, it's people and it's culture. But take away my language, that language that generations of Irish people spoke before our "care less" generation decided it was uncool. Then yes, you will take not only from us, but from generations to come.

Who are we to say it's time to relegate Irish?

Mark200 · 06-12-2008 1:16pm

themadchef wrote: »

Who are we to say it's time to relegate Irish?

The people of Ireland :cool:

Wibbs · 06-12-2008 2:22pm

themadchef wrote: »

Who are we to say it's time to relegate Irish?

Who? the overwhelming majority for which it has no useful daily role as a language.

Time Magazine · 06-12-2008 2:27pm

An old lecturer of mine made a very good point once.

"Can you think of anything more wasteful than trying to save a dying language?"

Terry · 06-12-2008 2:31pm

BrightEyes wrote: »

What do we want?

Fry's dog.

Voipjunkie · 06-12-2008 2:32pm

The Economist wrote: »

An old lecturer of mine made a very good point once.

"Can you think of anything more wasteful than trying to save a dying language?"

Trying to save a dying Motor Industry
Trying to save a dying Banking system
Trying to save an airline that does not need to be saved

And of course trying to save a language that is not dying that is far more wasteful

Not very bright or imaginative your old Lecturer ?

Mark200 · 06-12-2008 3:27pm

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Trying to save a dying Motor Industry
Trying to save a dying Banking system
Trying to save an airline that does not need to be saved

And of course trying to save a language that is not dying that is far more wasteful

Not very bright or imaginative your old Lecturer ?

What are you on about?

Surely a thriving economy is a lot more valuable than being able to speak a language that no one else in the world understands

javaboy · 06-12-2008 3:37pm

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Trying to save a dying Motor Industry

People need cars. They don't need an almost dead language.

Trying to save a dying Banking system

People need banks. They don't need an almost dead language.

IsMiseConor · 06-12-2008 5:21pm

It depends. Maybe if more people actually bothered to learn Irish in school and use it we could have it as our official language.

KnifeWRENCH · 06-12-2008 6:28pm

Nah, leave it the way it is. Even if most people can't speak it fluently it's still nice to have it officially recognised in our constitution.
What exactly would be the point of amending the constitution? Gaeilge is dying as it is, let's not kick it while it's down.

Davidius · 06-12-2008 7:14pm

The Economist wrote: »

An old lecturer of mine made a very good point once.

"Can you think of anything more wasteful than trying to save a dying language?"

Leaving the lights on and the taps running? Buying new when you have reusable materials at your disposal? Cancelling out variables when you should be factorising?

square_igloo wrote: »

Gaeilge is dying as it is, let's not kick it while it's down.

Agree with this.

sock puppet · 06-12-2008 7:18pm

square_igloo wrote: »

Nah, leave it the way it is. Even if most people can't speak it fluently it's still nice to have it officially recognised in our constitution.
What exactly would be the point of amending the constitution? Gaeilge is dying as it is, let's not kick it while it's down.

I think leaving it as it is is a terrible option. Either it should be revived totally or let die. If we let it die people would study it like they do Latin now. Students would learn about Gaelic history, folklore and culture rather than just the language. Surely if you wanted to preserve our culture, this sort of solution would be better than what we have now.

Though I voted change it to English, I'd also be happy if a complete revival was attempted. If the Welsh can do it (while part of the UK) then we can. It'd take a lot of effort and looking at how few Irish people can speak a foreign language, it may not work. But I don't see the point in wasting money on paying Irish teachers, TG4, translating documents etc. for no actual benefit.

KnifeWRENCH · 06-12-2008 7:25pm

sock puppet wrote: »

I think leaving it as it is is a terrible option. Either it should be revived totally or let die. If we let it die people would study it like they do Latin now. Students would learn about Gaelic history, folklore and culture rather than just the language. Surely if you wanted to preserve our culture, this sort of solution would be better than what we have now.

Though I voted change it to English, I'd also be happy if a complete revival was attempted. If the Welsh can do it (while part of the UK) then we can. It'd take a lot of effort and looking at how few Irish people can speak a foreign language, it may not work. But I don't see the point in wasting money on paying Irish teachers, TG4, translating documents etc. for no actual benefit.

When I said "Leave it the way it is" I was referring only to the position of Irish as first official language. I didn't say it to mean we should stick with the current methods of teaching Irish.
I agree that a revival of the way Irish is taught is desparately needed, but there's no reason to go amending the constitution over it.

sock puppet · 06-12-2008 7:32pm

square_igloo wrote: »

When I said "Leave it the way it is" I was referring only to the position of Irish as first official language. I didn't say it to mean we should stick with the current methods of teaching Irish.
I agree that a revival of the way Irish is taught is desparately needed, but there's no reason to go amending the constitution over it.

Oh sorry misread you there. I want Irish to be our first language but if it remains as it is I'd just prefer to get rid of it altogether.

challengemaster · 06-12-2008 7:36pm

IsMiseConor wrote: »

It depends. Maybe if more people actually bothered to learn Irish in school and use it we could have it as our official language.

Maybe if it was taught right in schools people might learn it.

You don't learn a language properly by analysing poetry.
You don't learn a language properly by analysing stories.
You don't learn a language properly by memorizing letter layouts, or the history of the language.

It's being taught completely wrong. Thats why it is as good as dead. You can pump as much funding into it as you fancy, but until you change the way its done, you're pissing into the wind.

Steve · 06-12-2008 10:59pm

I went through primary and secondary school learning being force fed Irish every day.

I've been in German speaking areas for maybe 6 weeks of my life.

I can now speak better German than Irish so the school system is seriously flawed in it's approach.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'd love to be able to speak fluent Irish, it saddens me that I can't.

chops1990 · 06-12-2008 11:09pm

Pog mo hon. The language stays. Why'd the lads of 1916 die? It was to keep our independent identity! You'd be wasting their lives and their fight by pissing away the language they fought to keep, amoung other things! So what if the vast majority of us cant speak it? Its OUR LANGUAGE. If we let the language go we're a step closer to losing our identity, a step closer to being unidentifiable from the Brits!

chops1990 · 06-12-2008 11:10pm

challengemaster wrote: »

Maybe if it was taught right in schools people might learn it.

You don't learn a language properly by analysing poetry.
You don't learn a language properly by analysing stories.
You don't learn a language properly by memorizing letter layouts, or the history of the language.

It's being taught completely wrong. Thats why it is as good as dead. You can pump as much funding into it as you fancy, but until you change the way its done, you're pissing into the wind.

THANK YOU!!!!!

06-12-2008 11:11pm

The Irish language has been done to death on Boards, do a search on "reviving the irish language", 23 threads.

None of them having any conclusive answer!

06-12-2008 11:21pm

challengemaster wrote: »

Maybe if it was taught right in schools people might learn it.

You don't learn a language properly by analysing poetry.
You don't learn a language properly by analysing stories.
You don't learn a language properly by memorizing letter layouts, or the history of the language.

It's being taught completely wrong. Thats why it is as good as dead. You can pump as much funding into it as you fancy, but until you change the way its done, you're pissing into the wind.

I'd add to that, "Teach it like a modern foreign language"

Forget this crap about it being a native language* etc, for about 95% of the population, it's as foreign as Polish.

*native language; the first language you learn from your parants.

Terry · 06-12-2008 11:30pm

I was going to edit the poll to make it so that the majority of voters wanted to keep Irish as the first language, but then I re-read it and it seems that I don't have to do that.

Currently at 60.41% with 197 votes overall.

Steve · 06-12-2008 11:32pm

Terry wrote: »

I was going to edit the poll to make it so that the majority of voters wanted to keep Irish as the first language, but then I re-read it and it seems that I don't have to do that.

Currently at 60.41% with 197 votes overall.

As DeV likes to say, "One man, one vote, and I'm the man."

Democracy ftw.

Terry · 06-12-2008 11:37pm

I voted "Neither".

AckwelFoley · 07-12-2008 12:08am

Je ne parle pas 'irish'
je prefè anglaise et un pue francaise.
Ca va?

Terry · 07-12-2008 12:11am

snyper wrote: »

Je ne parle pas 'irish'
je prefè anglaise et un pue francaise.
Ca va?

I prefer Irish and am not fond of French.

Most European languages are similar and are quite easy to read if you know some of the translations.

I cannot speak French, but know what Snyper's post says.

TEH REAL CDP · 07-12-2008 12:13am

Its our identity. FFS, why would you want to do that? If the syllabus is restructured in schools to make the language easier (and more interesting) to learn then I'm convinced that a lot more people would speak it.

AckwelFoley · 07-12-2008 12:15am

Terry wrote: »

I prefer Irish and am not fond of French.

Most European languages are similar and are quite easy to read if you know some of the translations.

I cannot speak French, but know what Snyper's post says.

id love to speak irish.. But i havent a word of it.

TEH REAL CDP · 07-12-2008 12:16am

Mark200 wrote: »

But it's pointless and good for nothing besides history

I am saddened that people feel this way - its who we are. You just have to engage with the language. It is good for something. Fair enough if people have bad experiences in school with learning it or whatever but lets not throw away what is ours.

Acacia · 07-12-2008 12:40am

I remember a similar thread here before. People who wanted to keep the language alive generally argued along the lines of ''it's our heritage and history'' while the other side argued more for the practical side of things,like ''Irish has no use in most people's lives''. If I remember correctly, neither side came to an agreement. This thread will probably end up the same, but here's my two cents:

I'd like to keep it as the first language. I was abroad this summer, and whenever anybody asked if I could speak Irish, I had to say '' just a bit'' or, more honestly, ''no, not really''.
I was really put off by how it was taught in school. As bad as it sounds, I felt like I was being forced into learning a foreign language. So I understand people not really caring about it, especially because of the way in which it's taught in school. I'd really love to be able to speak it, though.

EDIT: I especially like the all the old Irish sayings, like the one in my sig. :P

Nehaxak · 07-12-2008 3:49am

I have a basic understanding and can get by with the same basic speaking of about 8 languages (besides english) but Irish I find the hardest purely because I'd never spoken it on a daily basis.
However, after I moved to Ballymun about 8 years ago, the place here rekindled my faith in the language with so many people speaking it on a daily basis due to the Primary and secondary school educations here thought in Irish.

My two children are fluent Irish speakers as is my partner (who is half Filipino). The education they get from the Irish primary school here is absolutely fantastic and I wish I could've got the same education. There is a very high chance that another secondary Irish school will be built in Ballymun in the next few years to meet the demand.

I voted for keeping Irish as our primary/first language and I would love to see what's being done in Ballymun with Irish schools here, being replicated across other area's of Dublin.

Must be said also that the Irish schools here are mostly funded by the parents and general public in the area, they get feck all from the government and anything they do get from the government has to be fought really hard for. This pissant government have done little or nothing to promote the language and as a matter of fact myself I think they've hindered it's usage on purpose and gone out of their way to make it very hard for Irish schools to get the funding they need.

Would love to see more people speak the language and the best way to improve the take up of it is to teach it properly like they are doing in the Irish speaking schools in Ballymun.

It's also nice to have our own dialect of sorts here also, different than the culchie Irish and easier to understand

Also Starring LeVar Burton · 07-12-2008 3:58am

Is í an Ghaeilge ár theanga dúchais agus is ceart go mbeadh bród againn sa teanga sin.
If you can't speak the language because you didn't like how it was taught in schools, doesn't give you the right to call it a dead language.
As long as 2 people speak a language it can't be dead - and there's thousands of people who speak Irish, so it will not die - if anything it's getting stronger.

sdanseo · 07-12-2008 4:14am

I'm not shocked at the result but am VERY appalled that even 80 odd people want the teanga gone. The Irish language is integral to all of us, it's part of our culture and heritage, part in my opinion of every Irish person whether the know it or not. To speak out against Irish is tantamount to treason in my book - thnk of 1916, 800 years of oppression and how hard we fought to gain our independence, something that defines us from joe brit.

In most cases where people have a poor command of Irish, it's because it's treated like shít in schools and taught so badly it makes the government of today look GOOD.

I'm by no means flunt in Irish, I was lazy, dropped to pass Irish and failed to be taught much more than how to count to ten. However I would still be fervently of the opinion that anyone wh considers themselves Irish and voted YES above should be stripped of their citizenship and deported.

07-12-2008 5:38am

The whole planet speaking one language! How boring!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 07-12-2008 7:23am

snyper wrote: »

id love to speak irish.. But i havent a word of it.

you know more than you think, was listening to the radio and ended up on the irish radio station, the girlfriend (non irish) hadn't a clue what they were saying but I could tell her a bit about it. I was surprised at what I knew

Even though it wasn't a huge amount. It's nice to have a couple of words in Irish

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 07-12-2008 7:25am

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I'm not shocked at the result but am VERY appalled that even 80 odd people want the teanga gone. The Irish language is integral to all of us, it's part of our culture and heritage, part in my opinion of every Irish person whether the know it or not. To speak out against Irish is tantamount to treason in my book - thnk of 1916, 800 years of oppression and how hard we fought to gain our independence, something that defines us from joe brit.

In most cases where people have a poor command of Irish, it's because it's treated like shít in schools and taught so badly it makes the government of today look GOOD.

I'm by no means flunt in Irish, I was lazy, dropped to pass Irish and failed to be taught much more than how to count to ten. However I would still be fervently of the opinion that anyone wh considers themselves Irish and voted YES above should be stripped of their citizenship and deported.

Maybe them 80 people are actually not irish? Or are just completely ignorant and don't know much about irish history, culture or heritage???

Adamcp898 · 07-12-2008 12:12pm

English ftw

It has countless advantages over the other MINORITY one

and tbh if you need your own language to find your own identity then you need more help I'm afraid.

I doubt the rest of the world cares if we've our own language or not tbh anyway. Won't affect our identity in the slightest and not as if they're ever going to be learning to speak to us anyway, they'd cut us off and leave us on our own if we decided in the morning we weren't going to speak english.

Time Magazine · 07-12-2008 12:35pm

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Trying to save a dying Motor Industry

Good point.

Trying to save a dying Banking system

Banking systems are fairly important.

Trying to save an airline that does not need to be saved

Agreed. Thankfully nobody's doing this.

And of course trying to save a language that is not dying that is far more wasteful

Not very bright or imaginative your old Lecturer ?

Trying to save a language that is not dying requires no effort, so isn't wasteful.

Davidius wrote: »

Leaving the lights on and the taps running? Buying new when you have reusable materials at your disposal?

We don't see a Bord na Keep The Taps Running, or the Bord na Ceannaigh Rudaí Nua, though.

Cancelling out variables when you should be factorising?

Hey don't diss cancelling out.

Boards Referendum - English as the first language of Republic of Ireland

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