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Boards Referendum - English as the first language of Republic of Ireland

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,920 ✭✭✭✭ cson


    Bullsh!t, that's testament to nothing other than there's been 27 amendments. The amount of problems in the constitution are legion, its nowhere near a complete document, nor should we be celebrating Dev and his beloved Bishop for drafting such a conservative, backward stepping piece of literature, designed with the sole purpose of giving himself (Dev) as much power as possible in his then current position as Taoiseach!

    Studied it extensively then?

    Note that the Constitution is a 'dynamic' document. ;)

    Look anyone who wants to have it out about the Constitution > Politics is the forum and I'd be more than happy to debate it you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,170 ✭✭✭✭ brianthebard


    cson wrote: »
    Studied it extensively then?

    Note that the Constitution is a 'dynamic' document. ;)


    Well as a matter of fact, I have done some studies in this area.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Robbo


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    What's the point of running this referendum. If the vote is No you'll just keep running it until you get the yes vote.
    The first vote is purely democratic. All subsequent votes have a decreasing level of democracy along the patented "No to Lisbon Slippery Slope-o-meter" where you too can have too much democracy for your own good.

    Enough is enough with Rainman-ing out stock replies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 GA361


    cson wrote: »
    As regards the language issue; it's largely irrelevant which language takes precedence

    It's our way of sticking it to the English.Although English is our vernacular. . . its only second most important.
    Bullsh!t, that's testament to nothing other than there's been 27 amendments. The amount of problems in the constitution are legion, its nowhere near a complete document, nor should we be celebrating Dev and his beloved Bishop for drafting such a conservative, backward stepping piece of literature, designed with the sole purpose of giving himself (Dev) as much power as possible in his then current position as Taoiseach!
    Actually,the constitution was considered to be very liberal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    cson wrote: »
    The Constitution is a test now is it? I'll happily take you to Politics and debate the merits of it with you. :)

    Boring. I was only joking about the fact that it has at least 27 'mistakes' but since you love el constitutiono so much, exactly how is a document that begins with this:
    In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
    We, the people of Éire,
    Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial

    as relevant today as it was in 1937? Bearing in mind that we're not supposed to be an officially religious state anymore and that a huge amount of the population couldn't give a damn about the Holy Trinity and put it on a par with the FSM.

    As relevant now as it was then? :rolleyes: It falls at the first hurdle. And you can't ignore those 27 amendments. If they hadn't been made, the [1937]constitution would be a joke today.

    So no it is not as relevant now as it was then. The technical content might be ok (maybe) but as the constitution of a so-called modern state, it's not very inclusive.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭ themadchef


    I use Irish on a dialy basis. Generally not full blown in depth conversations just general banter. If someone addresses me in Irish, being Irish, i like to be able to answer back.

    We should be proud of our language, nurture it. We are not English or American, though if you listen to some people in conversation you would think we were. I'm not saying everyone has to love the language, but it's part of our heritage.

    Just how much of our Irishness will be lost by losing our language? Because effectively that's what will happen.


    What about the people who fought and died for our country. Is our generation the one to say "ya know what, we like English better". I'm not saying everyone should be forced to speak it. But, if we stop teaching it in our schools it's fcuked!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,920 ✭✭✭✭ cson


    The Preamble is possibly the most contentious issue with the Constitution and it's be cited as an area for reform by the CRG. I'd agree; it has no place in a modern secular state. Although others make the argument that as a predominantly Roman Catholic state the Constitution should reflect this. Personally, I don't agree as the document must represent all of the people not just the majority.

    The majority of the Constitution has aged well. As for the argument some of you are making considering the amount of Amendments, I'll state again that the document is considered to be dynamic and over time different interpretations will ensue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,170 ✭✭✭✭ brianthebard


    GA361 wrote: »
    It's our way of sticking it to the English.Although English is our vernacular. . . its only second most important.


    Actually,the constitution was considered to be very liberal.

    Totally subjective, would you like to back that up? But even so in comparison to the 1922 constitution it was a step backwards. Introducing the Catholic church's special position, role of women is the home, taking away popular referendum, that's liberal is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,920 ✭✭✭✭ cson


    This is straying way off topic. As I said if anyone wishes to debate the merits of the Constitution, a thread in Politics is the way to go.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 31,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dolanbaker




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 GA361


    Totally subjective, would you like to back that up? But even so in comparison to the 1922 constitution it was a step backwards. Introducing the Catholic church's special position, role of women is the home, taking away popular referendum, that's liberal is it?

    Yep,says so in my history book so it must be true.
    Come back to me after you look at this video.
    It will really open your eyes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,170 ✭✭✭✭ brianthebard


    GA361 wrote: »
    Yep,says so in my history book so it must be true.
    Come back to me after you look at this video.
    It will really open your eyes.


    WTF? First, youtube tags fail. Secondly, what? Are you saying that Dev didn't remove popular referendum from the old constitution? Very controversial position you are taking, going against actual recorded facts like that. Tell me, how long have you been a negationist?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 GA361


    WTF? First, youtube tags fail. Secondly, what? Are you saying that Dev didn't remove popular referendum from the old constitution? Very controversial position you are taking, going against actual recorded facts like that. Tell me, how long have you been a negationist?

    Watch the video and it will all become clear to you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    GA361 wrote: »
    Watch the video and it will all become clear to you.

    Sorry are you trying to make an argument about a technicality of the Irish constitution using a Youtube video of the Highwaymen? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 GA361


    Yes.But you must take a profound look into the deeper meaning of the video.
    And btw,did you like the video?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    GA361 wrote: »
    Yes.But you must take a profound look into the deeper meaning of the video.

    If you linked to the wrong video just say so. There's no need to save face by telling us there's some deep hidden meaning. And there's definitely nothing about whether De Valera removed popular referendum from the old constitution or not.
    And btw,did you like the video?

    Actually I'm not a fan of that song but I do like the Highwaymen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,026 ✭✭✭ cHaTbOx


    aint broke don't fix it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 GA361


    Its the right video.I was just board and wanted to end that debate,I forget why I put that particular song,It's one of my favourites.My opinion.Today that constitution would be very conservative as btb said,but the message that I meant to get across was that it was a very liberal constitution for its time.One must Consider the wider European picture at the time Franco,Stalin,Hitler,Mussolini.None of the citizens in these countries had the same political freedom as was promised under Bunreacht na hÉirinn.That is the angle I was looking at it from.Twas a different world back then.
    Enough of the serious talk.This is AH.What are your fav Highwaymen songs?
    Mine are Silver Stallion,Highwayman,Living Legend and desperados wating for a train


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,964 ✭✭✭ Bob the Builder


    Article 8:
    • 8.1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
    • 8.2 The English language is recognised as a second official language.
    • 8.3 Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof."

    Personally, I say stop beating irish into people. That just makes people hate it from the minute they go to school. It's not a language anymore really - or even a sign of our heritage - it's a subject, which people hate, and a component of a CV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭ burgess1


    No aspect of our everyday lives would change if the constitution were changed. English is the vernacular and the working language of the country. That isn't affected by the fact that Irish is the official first language of the state.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,170 ✭✭✭✭ brianthebard


    GA361 wrote: »
    Its the right video.I was just board and wanted to end that debate,I forget why I put that particular song,It's one of my favourites.My opinion.Today that constitution would be very conservative as btb said,but the message that I meant to get across was that it was a very liberal constitution for its time.One must Consider the wider European picture at the time Franco,Stalin,Hitler,Mussolini.None of the citizens in these countries had the same political freedom as was promised under Bunreacht na hÉirinn.That is the angle I was looking at it from.Twas a different world back then.
    Enough of the serious talk.This is AH.What are your fav Highwaymen songs?
    Mine are Silver Stallion,Highwayman,Living Legend and desperados wating for a train

    Worst angle on the constitution ever. It was no way liberal, and the leaders you named did away with democracy, which has nothing to do with whether our constitution was liberal or not. considering it in light of the 1922 document however shows what a massive step backwards from liberal democracy it actually was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,093 ✭✭✭ kiffer


    Personally, I say stop beating irish into people. That just makes people hate it from the minute they go to school. It's not a language anymore really - or even a sign of our heritage - it's a subject, which people hate, and a component of a CV.

    They don't hate it from the minute they start it in school. It takes about a year or two, kids are fine learning vocab and are geneally ok and happy with using random irish words...
    Then they start rote learning grammar/conjugation and start hating it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭ Cunny-Funt


    Irish was my most hated subject in school. But at the same time...I AM Irish. In a way it kinda pains me that our language is not as common as it shouldbe.

    I wish I knew the language tbh. But I had a horrible time in Irish class in school.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,862 ✭✭✭ Riddle101


    Why can't both English and Irish be our National Lanuage? I mean we pretty much use the both of them anyway.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 31,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dolanbaker


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    Why can't both English and Irish be our National Lanuage? I mean we pretty much use the both of them anyway.

    They are! the debate is which one comes first.







    (there's a joke somewhere there) ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,756 Pride Fighter


    I voted yes. However I want Irish and English to both be recognised as first languages of the state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭ Mark200


    I voted yes. However I want Irish and English to both be recognised as first languages of the state.

    English should come first. Feck "principle" and "heritage". Practicality is more important and giving the people the right to refuse speeding tickets or other legal documents because they aren't written in Irish is not practical.
    Wasting our money on translating boring pointless stuff into Irish is not practical.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭ themadchef


    Mark200 wrote: »
    English should come first. Feck "principle" and "heritage". Practicality is more important and giving the people the right to refuse speeding tickets or other legal documents because they aren't written in Irish is not practical.
    Wasting our money on translating boring pointless stuff into Irish is not practical.

    This really saddens me. Why? because we are Irish! If people hate Irish fine, hate away. If people dont understand it, fine, no one's forcing adults to learn it as there ar always translations for everything

    If we so desperately want to be someone else as a country, I.E english, then why not get shut of the government too while we're at it (because the're sure as hell not practical) unite the 32 and all hail the Queen!

    Take away our language, take away our soul.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,835 RandolphEsq


    Hagar wrote: »
    Remember you will have to keep voting until we get the result we want.

    What do we want?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,835 RandolphEsq


    themadchef wrote: »
    Take away our language, take away our soul.

    But language is only a tool to communicate with each other. How can it give us an 'identity'?
    Patriotism and national identity are championed by the simple mind. We should call ourselves Irish by virtue of where we live, NOT because of our history, NOT because of what 'Irish' people have 'been through'.
    It is certainly more practical for us, and for all countries, to speak the one language


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