Boards Referendum - English as the first language of Republic of Ireland

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Good to see you learned a lot then.

It's great when you don't have to say a word to disprove what some says.

Do you mean someone?
Your post makes no sense. There's no other comparison to make apart from this thread. I don't understand your problem.

Adamcp898

TEH REAL CDP wrote: »

Its ironic that in the points (if there are any) you endeavor to make in your posts - you completely contradict yourself:

You obviously haven't a clue about what you're talking about if you think learning more than one language will void the command of another. That's not how learning and the human brain works. Learning various forms of tenses and grammar consolidates verbal and aural reasoning in the brain. Hence, people who have studied/had exposure to many languages at an early stage in development are more proficient in grasping the fundamental basis of language structure (in a multilingual context I might add) and can even comprehend the subtle dialectual differences in many subforms of a foreign language. Studying Irish (via a reformed syllabus approach) will only enhance that ability.

That wasn't what I was saying at all.

What I was saying, and this goes for more than just languages, if you concentrate on one and neglect another you will be better at one than the other.
I wasn't commenting on when a child should start learning their first, second, third languages or about how the Irish syllabus needs to be reformed at least as to how languages are taught.

TEH REAL CDP wrote: »

My old nostalgic view of Ireland? :rolleyes: Yeah - give me a break. If I had that viewpoint on life - I'd be bitter and resentful of everyone around me from staying in Ireland too long. Sound familiar?

Sounds like someone who left and is regretful of thier own decision to the point they wish to grasp on to aspects of what they feel they left behind.

TEH REAL CDP wrote: »

I don't hate anyone or endorse any of what you are saying. To progress as a nation - you do not forget where you came from. That is ignorance and blind ignorance at that. For the record, I work in the UK and the only reason I'm posting is that I'm appalled that people are reacting in such a fashion. Its people like you that are small minded - who refuse to see the bigger picture and where they stand in the world and why, today - they are able to stand there as Irish people.

And small minded people like you who fail to embrace change and see what needs to be done for a country to consistently move forward.

This is turning into little more than people taking pops at each other but I guess it is AH after all.

Adamcp898

CaptainNegative wrote: »

Do you mean someone?
Your post makes no sense. There's no other comparison to make apart from this thread. I don't understand your problem.

Indeed I did

My point was you're using one example (from the internet no less) to try and prove a point (in jest or not) which requires much more evidence

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Indeed I did

My point was you're using one example (from the internet no less) to try and prove a point (in jest or not) which requires much more evidence

Well in fairness, saying that people who went to gaelscoileanna wouldn't have as good a grasp on english as other people, is hardly proof of anything. Most of the people I went to school with are/were better at english than the majority of the surrounding English speaking schools and several of us went on to get degrees in English, so your original point has no facts whatsoever and indeed from personal experiences I have (which you don't as you didn't, or at least I imagine you didn't, attend a gaelscoil), I know that your statement was false.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I hope everyone who voted to keep Irish the national language gets aids

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I hope everyone who voted to keep Irish the national language gets aids

As in free Irish lessions you mean!

I'm still learning Irish, still crap at it!

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Domo230 wrote: »

Yea cause having everyone speak the same language is eally going to cause any of this to happen :rolleyes:

Either you didn't get his sarcasm or you have no idea what you're talking about - which is it?
I find it hard to believe that anyone could be so uncultured as to think that having only one language for everyone in the world would be a good thing - it's as if you want to be a robot.

ejmaztec

Irish is all Greek to me. :P

Dave!

Just leave it as it is, it will make no difference whatsoever......

ScumLord

Adamcp898 wrote: »

What I was saying, and this goes for more than just languages, if you concentrate on one and neglect another you will be better at one than the other.
I wasn't commenting on when a child should start learning their first, second, third languages or about how the Irish syllabus needs to be reformed at least as to how languages are taught.

A friend of mine is having a child with a Slovakian girl and she plans to teach the child Irish and Slovakian. She doesn't see it as a big deal as she can speak 3 or 4 languages herself including more Irish than I can. Another Polish girl I know can speak 5 languages. Learning a language, any language can only make you better at picking up and learning languages.

Irish is an ancient language that is of great interest to allot of people around the world it's also lent heavily to many other languages. The fact it's not popular or spoken much has more to do with the lazy MTV consumer cattle generation of today that would rather suck up whatever 'culture' the tele tells them is cool.

thelordofcheese

ScumLord wrote: »

The fact it's not popular or spoken much has more to do with the lazy MTV consumer cattle generation of today that would rather suck up whatever 'culture' the tele tells them is cool.

Or the fact that it's pratically dead, poorly taught and mostly useless. Irish has no pratical application for most people, why waste your time?
I mean if you're going to bother with dead languages then you should probably learn sanskrit.
Bitches love sanskrit.

AvrilLavigne

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Or the fact that it's pratically dead, poorly taught and mostly useless. Irish has no pratical application for most people, why waste your time?
I mean if you're going to bother with dead languages then you should probably learn sanskrit.
Bitches love sanskrit.

Thank God (or Eamonn O Cuiv) that we have planning laws that prevent the likes of you living anywhere near us! Tháinig ár lá ach níor thuig sibh é!

thelordofcheese

AvrilLavigne wrote: »

Thank God (or Eamonn O Cuiv) that we have planning laws that prevent the likes of you living anywhere near us! Tháinig ár lá ach níor thuig sibh é!

This, this shit right here?
This is why people hate your goddamn language. Because you act like a bunch of elitist fucksticks.

pork99

If nothing else this teaches us a bit of Latin.

The "de iure" first language of Ireland is Irish.

However the "de facto" first language is English.

Personally I believe we should change the constitution to recognition of two equal National languages - that would be closer to reality. English effectively is the first language but we still need to recognise the cultural importance of Irish.

I suspect that state favours for Gaelgeoirs in state employment, education and monetary grants work against the adoption of Irish by the wider population. If you are an Irish speaker and you have these advantages the last thing you want is for every Tomais, Risteard agus Harry to start speaking Irish - that would be a disaster because you would lose your position of special privilege. Such incentives make Gaelgeoirs sub-consciously possessive of Irish and exclusive towards non-speakers. It might explain why the teaching of Irish is so poor compared to the teaching of modern European languages. But that's social engineering for you - the state's attempts to promote Irish a can be called a form of social engineering and when you go down that road you enter a wonderful whacky world of perverse incentives and unintended consequences.

Doc

I voted No. I love the fact we have or own language. I have often been in another country and have had people think we where part of England or British, telling them we are our own republic with our own language and being able to say something in Irish to them reinforces the differences in our cultures.

Although I am by no means a fluent Irish speaker I can string a sentence together in Irish, I think that most of you who have lived and been educated in Ireland could do the same. If the majority of the country had the ability to speak both Irish and English fluently then I would speak Irish.

If this was the case and you where suddenly given the ability to speak Irish (If you can’t already do so) and so was everyone else in Ireland would you continue to speak English in your everyday life?

Slightly off topic but I believe Irish should be taught by a separate Irish teacher in primary school. You would be amazed (or perhaps not) at the amount of people currently teaching with very poor Irish language skills. It is also a barrier for people wishing to teach in Ireland.

AvrilLavigne

thelordofcheese wrote: »

This, this shit right here?
This is why people hate your goddamn language. Because you act like a bunch of elitist fucksticks.

Thank you for your feedback. We value your opinion.

culabula

ejmaztec wrote: »

Irish is all Greek to me. :P

That's a riot!!

culabula

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I hope everyone who voted to keep Irish the national language gets aids

Tá mé ag déanamh go bhfuil tú ag caint fán SEIF ach ní tharlaíonn sé sin, acht do lucht a' bhéarla, mar atá a fhios ag an tsaoghal mhór!!!

AvrilLavigne

culabula wrote: »

Tá mé ag déanamh go bhfuil tú ag caint fán SEIF ach ní tharlaíonn sé sin, acht do lucht a' bhéarla, mar atá a fhios ag an tsaoghal mhór!!!

Tá siúl agam go bfhaigh an buidéal deatach seif cait! (Mura bfhuil sé aige cheana!)

cornbb

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Or the fact that it's pratically dead, poorly taught and mostly useless. Irish has no pratical application for most people, why waste your time?

I'd hate to live in a world where only things with a quantifiable "practical application for most people" have value. We could say goodbye to art, culture, freedom of expression, individuality and all that jazz.

Saying the language is practically dead is simply untrue, there are tens of thousands of families and businesses in Ireland that use Irish as their first language every day.

culabula

AvrilLavigne wrote: »

Tá siúl agam go bfhaigh an buidéal deatach seif cait! (Mura bfhuil sé aige cheana!)

Leoga, tá, bí cinnte de sin, chan fhuil aon dabhat ar bith faoi.....:-)

"tá an teangaidh mhaith Bhéarla
ag De Valera,
nach dtuigfeadh focal
dá bhfuil mé ag radh"

thelordofcheese

cornbb wrote: »

I'd hate to live in a world where only things with a quantifiable "practical application for most people" have value. We could say goodbye to art, culture, freedom of expression, individuality and all that jazz.

Yes, after we're done with irish we're taking individuality next. It's all part of the plan.
Actually, i've been meaning to ask, when you type that maudlin bullshit, does a part of you die inside? I'd reckon it'd have to, seeing as that kind of rubbish appeal to emotions is practically toxic to look at.

jesus christ, the language is as good as dead, It's useless beyond our own borders, mostly useless within them hasn't evolved in decades and yet is still an enforced part of our curriculum for at least thirteen or so years.

Frankly, if people *want* to learn it, fine, but it's useless beyond being a curiosity.

cornbb wrote: »

Saying the language is practically dead is simply untrue, there are tens of thousands of families and businesses in Ireland that use Irish as their first language every day.

I'm calling bullshit on that, or at least labeling it as figures of the very massaged variety.

cornbb

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Yes, after we're done with irish we're taking individuality next. It's all part of the plan.
Actually, i've been meaning to ask, when you type that maudlin bullshit, does a part of you die inside? I'd reckon it'd have to, seeing as that kind of rubbish appeal to emotions is practically toxic to look at.

I'm not appealing to emotions, I'm calling you on your attempt to label Irish "useless" or "dead" when that is indisputably not the case. I'm also trying to point out the fact that just because you can't measure something's monetary value doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

jesus christ, the language is as good as dead, It's useless beyond our own borders, mostly useless within them hasn't evolved in decades and yet is still an enforced part of our curriculum for at least thirteen or so years.

Frankly, if people *want* to learn it, fine, but it's useless beyond being a curiosity.

Don't you live in England? If you lived in the Gaelteacht, or Galway city where a good amount of knowledge and respect for Irish language and culture exists, or even in Dublin where there are still pockets of daily speakers, you'd recognise the reality that the Irish language is an integral part of life for a lot of people. Dismissing it as "dead" or "useless" is just being dismissive of the facts and is tantamount to throwing a tantrum just because you don't like it. You merely dislike the language, just accept that it is part of daily life for thousands of others.

I'm calling bullshit on that, or at least labeling it as figures of the very massaged variety.

Take your pick from these figures
EDIT: forgot the link: http://www.gaeltachttravel.com/gaeltacht-regions/statistics-on-the-gaeltacht-and-the-irish-language/

More interesting are percentages of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht regions. In all Gaeltachtaí 72.6% are fluent in Irish (62,157 people).

And this graph would indicate that if it is "dead" someone hasn't told the census takers: http://www.gaeltachttravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/nb_irish_speakers.gif Hey look at that! The number of Irish speakers is skyrocketing! Someone should tell them its actually useless...

AvrilLavigne

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Yes, after we're done with irish we're taking individuality next. It's all part of the plan.
Actually, i've been meaning to ask, when you type that maudlin bullshit, does a part of you die inside? I'd reckon it'd have to, seeing as that kind of rubbish appeal to emotions is practically toxic to look at.

jesus christ, the language is as good as dead, It's useless beyond our own borders, mostly useless within them hasn't evolved in decades and yet is still an enforced part of our curriculum for at least thirteen or so years.

Frankly, if people *want* to learn it, fine, but it's useless beyond being a curiosity.



I'm calling bullshit on that, or at least labeling it as figures of the very massaged variety.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58183108#post58183108

Read it again son!

javaboy

cornbb wrote: »

I'd hate to live in a world where only things with a quantifiable "practical application for most people" have value. We could say goodbye to art, culture, freedom of expression, individuality and all that jazz.

That's all well and good but why should people who aren't interested in it be forced to endure it? Compulsory teaching an almost useless language to kids in school is stupid.

Saying the language is practically dead is simply untrue, there are tens of thousands of families and businesses in Ireland that use Irish as their first language every day.

It's on life support at best. Artificially kept alive by government grants, compulsory teaching, bonus points for answering exams through it :mad: and pointless expensive translations of documents etc.

cornbb

javaboy wrote: »

That's all well and good but why should people who aren't interested in it be forced to endure it? Compulsory teaching an almost useless language to kids in school is stupid.

*shrug* why teach maths when most people will never need it in their working lives? I don't have any strong opinions one way or the other about compulsory Irish in schools. I'd have a much bigger problem with religious indoctrination, but thats for another thread...

It's on life support at best. Artificially kept alive by government grants, compulsory teaching, bonus points for answering exams through it :mad: and pointless expensive translations of documents etc.

Not only is it being spoken by an increasing number of people (whereas the number of people being born in this country has been falling for over 150 years) but its "approval ratings", if you will, have been possibly at the highest ever level. I don't have figures to back that up, but I'd argue that it is the case from talking to people of older generations. I recognise that the Irish language is being kept alive partially through grants etc, but there really is a significant minority of areas in the country where it is just naturally kept alive. Monetarily speaking, the Irish language is indeed "loss-making" but then again so are listed buildings, most forms of art, etc.

Wibbs

AvrilLavigne wrote: »

Thank God (or Eamonn O Cuiv) that we have planning laws that prevent the likes of you living anywhere near us! Tháinig ár lá ach níor thuig sibh é!

I have to agree with thelordofcheese in his response to this anyway. No wonder many get their hackles up when people spout this elitist nonsense. No wonder people don't use it daily to the degree the language nazis like to think. Namechecking O' Cuiv? Jesus, I suspect O Cuiv is equally moronic in any language. Whenever I see that rubber faced buffoon on the box I see the retarded echo of the gobsheenism that has ruined this country for far too long. Ironically if he seeks to ghettoise the fervent spittle lipped elitists then at least he serves a useful purpose.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

javaboy wrote: »

It's on life support at best. Artificially kept alive by government grants, compulsory teaching, bonus points for answering exams through it :mad: and pointless expensive translations of documents etc.

That's a load of BS.
Myself and the majority of the people I spend time with only speak Gaeilge to one another and we're not in the Gaeltacht, not working for any organisations in which Gaeilge is the primary language in which business is done, but just because we want to and because we can.
Saying anything is dying, merely because it doesn't play a role in your life is the highest form of ignorance. If you want to make broad statements condemning the national language, why don't you do a bit of research first and you'll find that you're wrong.
A leithéad de phlóta ni fhaca mé riamh.

AvrilLavigne

Wibbs wrote: »

I have to agree with thelordofcheese in his response to this anyway. No wonder many get their hackles up when people spout this elitist nonsense. No wonder people don't use it daily to the degree the language nazis like to think. Namechecking O' Cuiv? Jesus, I suspect O Cuiv is equally moronic in any language. Whenever I see that rubber faced buffoon on the box I see the retarded echo of the gobsheenism that has ruined this country for far too long. Ironically if he seeks to ghettoise the fervent spittle lipped elitists then at least he serves a useful purpose.

Yes, you agree sheep! Maybe the moaning cheese stick will move next to you and ye can moan away while we live in harmony with the the Irish, English, Polish etc. who like and welcome diversity, difference and fun.

Sieg Heil Wibbs and Cheese! One race! One language! Blue eyes! Blond Hair!

Wibbs

You see I call bullshít on the census figures. Yes people self report that they speak it, but self reporting as a way of gathering statistics is about as useful a chocolate fireguard. On that basis every geek on the web has a ten inch mickey and every woman on facebook is a size 8. I can think of two people who say they speak Irish and I know more bloody words in it and I can't.

Lets say those figures and your perceptions are accurate. OK then we get to fluency. Are you trying to tell me that the fluency in English is lower than the fluency in Irish in those tens of thousands of households and businesses? You're frankly kidding yourself if you think that.

From your link(hardly biased of course);

there was 1,570,894 Irish speakers in the country as opposed to 2,180,101 Non-Irish speakers. An Irish speaker is defined as a person who claims that they can speak Irish, but who do not necessarily use it in their daily life. The largest number of Irish speakers live in Leinster (511,639), followed by Munster (352,177), Connacht (162,680) and the three counties of Ulster which are in the Republic (69,334). However the percentage of Irish speakers is the lowest in Leinster (38.2%), the highest in Connacht and Munster (48.5% and 46.8% respectively).

One and a half million Irish speakers? Eh yea, right. Look at your window and observe the majestic sight of pigs flying south for the winter(away from the dioxins). I like the caveat too; "claims that they can speak Irish, but who do not necessarily use it in their daily life". Hmmmmmm that's about right. Leinster with half a million potential O'Cuivs? I have never and I mean never heard Irish spoken in Leinster, beyond mangled attempts in school. In my life. Actually that's not true and hyperbole on my part. I have heard it spoken, maybe 3 or 4 times in my life. In only one instance and household did it even come close to fluency.

A language that is not fluent and a language that is artificially propped up and would likely die without such support, hardly deserves the title. Basque, the languages of the former soviet controlled nations have all survived and thrived and are living breathing languages with full fluency and usefulness. All of those languages were banned or severely restricted at one time(the east European ones only had 15 years or so of freedom). Now they are actually used fluently, every day, by the majority of those people who consider themselves Basque or Estonian etc. Irish and it's all too rabid supporters simply looks pathetic by comparison in it's attempts to describe itself as a living language.