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Boards Referendum - English as the first language of Republic of Ireland

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I have to agree with thelordofcheese in his response to this anyway. No wonder many get their hackles up when people spout this elitist nonsense. No wonder people don't use it daily to the degree the language nazis like to think. Namechecking O' Cuiv? Jesus, I suspect O Cuiv is equally moronic in any language. Whenever I see that rubber faced buffoon on the box I see the retarded echo of the gobsheenism that has ruined this country for far too long. Ironically if he seeks to ghettoise the fervent spittle lipped elitists then at least he serves a useful purpose.

    Yes, you agree sheep! Maybe the moaning cheese stick will move next to you and ye can moan away while we live in harmony with the the Irish, English, Polish etc. who like and welcome diversity, difference and fun.

    Sieg Heil Wibbs and Cheese! One race! One language! Blue eyes! Blond Hair!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    You see I call bullshít on the census figures. Yes people self report that they speak it, but self reporting as a way of gathering statistics is about as useful a chocolate fireguard. On that basis every geek on the web has a ten inch mickey and every woman on facebook is a size 8. I can think of two people who say they speak Irish and I know more bloody words in it and I can't.

    Lets say those figures and your perceptions are accurate. OK then we get to fluency. Are you trying to tell me that the fluency in English is lower than the fluency in Irish in those tens of thousands of households and businesses? You're frankly kidding yourself if you think that.

    From your link(hardly biased of course);
    there was 1,570,894 Irish speakers in the country as opposed to 2,180,101 Non-Irish speakers. An Irish speaker is defined as a person who claims that they can speak Irish, but who do not necessarily use it in their daily life. The largest number of Irish speakers live in Leinster (511,639), followed by Munster (352,177), Connacht (162,680) and the three counties of Ulster which are in the Republic (69,334). However the percentage of Irish speakers is the lowest in Leinster (38.2%), the highest in Connacht and Munster (48.5% and 46.8% respectively).
    One and a half million Irish speakers? Eh yea, right. Look at your window and observe the majestic sight of pigs flying south for the winter(away from the dioxins). I like the caveat too; "claims that they can speak Irish, but who do not necessarily use it in their daily life". Hmmmmmm that's about right. Leinster with half a million potential O'Cuivs? I have never and I mean never heard Irish spoken in Leinster, beyond mangled attempts in school. In my life. Actually that's not true and hyperbole on my part. I have heard it spoken, maybe 3 or 4 times in my life. In only one instance and household did it even come close to fluency.

    A language that is not fluent and a language that is artificially propped up and would likely die without such support, hardly deserves the title. Basque, the languages of the former soviet controlled nations have all survived and thrived and are living breathing languages with full fluency and usefulness. All of those languages were banned or severely restricted at one time(the east European ones only had 15 years or so of freedom). Now they are actually used fluently, every day, by the majority of those people who consider themselves Basque or Estonian etc. Irish and it's all too rabid supporters simply looks pathetic by comparison in it's attempts to describe itself as a living language.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Yes, you agree sheep! Maybe the moaning cheese stick will move next to you and ye can moan away while we live in harmony with the the Irish, English, Polish etc. who like and welcome diversity, difference and fun.

    Sieg Heil Wibbs and Cheese! One race! One language! Blue eyes! Blond Hair!
    Ehhhhh OK..... Strange person. You say you welcome diversity yet reference and indeed thank god that some morons planning laws specifically restricts diversity. Clearly English is your second language or irony doesn't translate well as Gaelige.





    PS Nice cruise around Godwin's law. green eyed and dark haired here. Blondes don't really do it for me, but meh to each their own.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Ehhhhh OK..... Strange person. You say you welcome diversity yet reference and indeed thank god that some morons planning laws specifically restricts diversity. Clearly English is your second language or irony doesn't translate well as Gaelige.





    PS Nice cruise around Godwin's law. green eyed and dark haired here. Blondes don't really do it for me, but meh to each their own.

    The laws keep the ignorant moaners like you and cheese out. We speak it, we use it, people who don't move here all the time, just don't bitch about it or how we run things here. Each county is free to decide this. Try moving to Clare; wouldn't take your moaning ass either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,347 ✭✭✭ HalloweenJack


    If Irish still deserves to be an official language, surely recognition should be given to Polish. There must be more Polish speakers in the country by now.

    I went to fourteen years of all-Irish and all I got out of it was a good few extra points in the Leaving. That's something that should be changed, imo. It's not fair on kids who go to English schools or immigrants who struggle just trying to learn English.

    I do feel proud to be able to speak the language but the fact is it's utterly useless, like Latin. Everybody on this island speaks English.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Ahh so you like diversity so long as it agrees with you? Riiiiight. By the by you didn't respond to my points, just witter on erroneously about moaners(or people who don't happen to agree with you). Then bring up something about me not being welcome in Clare? A tad off the point and not a little surreal.

    OK lets join the disparate dots of what passes for your argument: Now if those who are not Irish speakers are free to move to Irish only areas(so long as they don't moan apparently)and you're fine with that, what's the rhetoric about the planning laws? Apparently they mean nothing in your mind all of a sudden. O'Cuiv can't be happy being ignored if that's the case(though that would be his default perception of the world).

    So which is it? Everyone is welcome, , Polish, English(even them, by heck)so long as no moaners(boo! hiss! Down with that sorta thing) show up. Sounds like an Irish planning law alright. How would you spot me? If I wore a placard(in both languages obviously) denouncing Irish as a sham or something? Sounds workable. Or in the real world, the planning laws actually restrict diversity, while trying to prop up a language, that may or may not be dead. That's fine, that's it's purpose, but your debating skills and points are all over the place.

    Maybe you're better in Irish, who knows. The thing is, in the country at large you could be Quiveeeen O'Socrates and frankly about 5000 people would fully understand your erudition and general brilliance..


    Anxiously awaits more surrealism......

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,816 Acacia



    I went to fourteen years of all-Irish and all I got out of it was a good few extra points in the Leaving. That's something that should be changed, imo. It's not fair on kids who go to English schools or immigrants who struggle just trying to learn English.

    I agree about reforming the way Irish is taught in schools.

    I went to an English school i.e. one where the children are taught through English. I didn't find learning Irish 'unfair' or that it had a negative effect on my Leaving Cert results. I just wish it was taught in a better way.

    As for the immigrants struggling to learn English- I hardly see how changing the constitution would affect them. If they have a problem with Irish being the national language (and I can't see how they would), then tough titties, to be honest. If I went to any other country to live, I would respect that they have a different language, or maybe several official languages (as is the case in Spain.) In fact, I know immigrants from many different countries living here. Far from complaining about Irish, many have remarked to me that it's a shame that we don't speak it fluently.Many of them have learned Irish themselves.

    Irish is not a dead language. A language is dead when the last speaker of the language dies, taking the language with them. Some of the AmerIndian languages for example, would be dead languages, as there are no living speakers of them.

    As for, ''it being of no use outside these shores''- what of German or Finnish or Swedish or Swahili? They're not used very much outside their countries either. Should they stop learning their native languages and only speak English? The European people that I've met usually have excellent English , as well as their own language. I think that duality is something we should strive for here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 174 ✭✭ futura123


    english is the first language in modern ireland ..... the constitution should be changed to reflect this. i have no problem with irish bein demoted to no 2 on the list.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,347 ✭✭✭ HalloweenJack


    Acacia wrote: »
    I went to an English school i.e. one where the children are taught through English. I didn't find learning Irish 'unfair' or that it had a negative effect on my Leaving Cert results. I just wish it was taught in a better way.
    Well, the thing is if you do your Leaving exams through Irish, you get back 10% of the marks you didn't get. Therefore, I got 420 in my leaving. If I'd done it through English, I would've got 390 or something. I don't think that's fair. I know it's an attempt to promote the language but it does discriminate against people who don't want to go to all-Irish schools.
    Acacia wrote:
    As for the immigrants struggling to learn English- I hardly see how changing the constitution would affect them. If they have a problem with Irish being the national language (and I can't see how they would), then tough titties, to be honest.
    It's one thing to learn the lan guage that they'll use in everyday life but what is the point in learning a language that they won't be using everyday?
    Acacia wrote:
    As for, ''it being of no use outside these shores''- what of German or Finnish or Swedish or Swahili? They're not used very much outside their countries either. Should they stop learning their native languages and only speak English?
    The difference with those languages is that they have really high percentages of speakers. English is the language here. Very few people speak Irish everyday or at all. In Finland, Finnish is spoken by the majority, same with Sweden and Germany (although German is also spoken in Switzerland and Austria) and Kenya.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    It's one thing to learn the lan guage that they'll use in everyday life but what is the point in learning a language that they won't be using everyday?
    Exactly. It would be like being forced to learn Basque and get preferential treatment in exams while living in Barcelona.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    That's a load of BS.
    Myself and the majority of the people I spend time with only speak Gaeilge to one another and we're not in the Gaeltacht, not working for any organisations in which Gaeilge is the primary language in which business is done, but just because we want to and because we can.
    Saying anything is dying, merely because it doesn't play a role in your life is the highest form of ignorance. If you want to make broad statements condemning the national language, why don't you do a bit of research first and you'll find that you're wrong.
    A leithéad de phlóta ni fhaca mé riamh.

    Why does the language need preferential treatment so? Why can it not stand on its own two feet if its not dying?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,503 ✭✭✭✭ Also Starring LeVar Burton


    javaboy wrote: »
    Why does the language need preferential treatment so? Why can it not stand on its own two feet if its not dying?

    I never claimed to agree with the government on their treatment of the language. Gaeilge would not die out if the government cut all grants tomorrow. Nowhere in any of my posts did I comment on the goverment grants in regards to Gaeilge.
    The post you quoted was me saying your argument was of the upmost ignorance - which I'll stand by. You have yet to give a shred of evidence that it is a dying language.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    I never claimed to agree with the government on their treatment of the language. Gaeilge would not die out if the government cut all grants tomorrow. Nowhere in any of my posts did I comment on the goverment grants in regards to Gaeilge.
    The post you quoted was me saying your argument was of the upmost ignorance - which I'll stand by. You have yet to give a shred of evidence that it is a dying language.

    You're accusing me of ignorance? You were the one earlier saying I think the language is dying "merely because it doesn't play a role in your life". That's nothing to do with it. There a million different things that play no role in my life. I wouldn't use it as a basis for an argument that those things are dying.

    I don't know where you plucked that assumption from tbh. Was it based on just one post I made? I didn't mention anything at all about whether it plays a role in my life.

    And if you read my posts you'll see I never claimed the language is dying. I said it is being kept alive by artificial supports. There's no way for either of us to know whether it would survive as a language without them. My guess is that it wouldn't. I can't provide evidence either way while those artificial supports are in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,093 ✭✭✭ kiffer


    I hear random snippets of irish every so often on the bus, in the street and in pubs.

    I'm seeing an upswing in usage/interest and I've discovered a number of people I know actively use Irish when they can... but they don't generally make this known. They aren't preachy about it they just use it when they are about people they know understand it (and also aren't going to go on about it being a dead language).

    If you're in the "I wish I could speak irish" or the "I can but don't bother" camps I urge you to make this known to people around you... Don't make a big issue about it, just throw out a couple of sentences here and there you might be suprised at the number of people around you that respond positively.

    I've known people for years without knowing that they actively speak irish fluently and only found out because of a chance comment by a friend.
    Now irish speakers seem to be coming out of the wood work and I know a suprising number.

    My irish is really awfull, I wish it was good enough that I could impove it with out looking so stupid... 14 years in school and I can't say more than a few stock phrases and conjugate some verbs and a preposition or two... Screw grammar, it's lack of vocab that's crippling.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    I never claimed to agree with the government on their treatment of the language. Gaeilge would not die out if the government cut all grants tomorrow. Nowhere in any of my posts did I comment on the goverment grants in regards to Gaeilge.
    The post you quoted was me saying your argument was of the upmost ignorance - which I'll stand by. You have yet to give a shred of evidence that it is a dying language.
    I don't think it would die out, but I think it would make it more evident how actually relevant or not, it was for people. I suspect it would dwindle quite a bit if it lost all government support, if it was no longer required as part of the syllabus or required in certain professions if there were no grants for irish speaking areas etc. Or it may actually grow the language.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 5,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭ culabula


    If Irish still deserves to be an official language, surely recognition should be given to Polish. There must be more Polish speakers in the country by now.

    I

    I would have said that Polish has considerable recognition.....I see signs written in it everywhere, information distributed in it, a mini-TV station, radio, Polish music and goods on sale and an Evening Herald supplement.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 5,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭ culabula



    I do feel proud to be able to speak the language but the fact is it's utterly useless, like Latin. Everybody on this island speaks English.


    Latin was one of the most useful subjects ever and it is a disgrace that it was removed from curriculae; I would argue that language skills in Ireland (and in Britain) would be considerably improved had Latin been retained.

    A wonderful and beautiful language in no small way which lives on in millions of contemporary speakers' mouths.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 Domo230


    Either you didn't get his sarcasm or you have no idea what you're talking about - which is it?
    I find it hard to believe that anyone could be so uncultured as to think that having only one language for everyone in the world would be a good thing - it's as if you want to be a robot.

    Are you serious.

    One language would be great. Whats wrong with wanting to be able to easily communicate with every race and culture in the world.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 5,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭ culabula


    Domo230 wrote: »
    Are you serious.

    One language would be great. Whats wrong with wanting to be able to easily communicate with every race and culture in the world.

    Everything -it will squash all cultures, manners, ways of life.

    Look at the 'uptalk' of young Irish people. look at the words 'small, medium, everyday, commonplace, ordinary, normal, common-or-garden', all being replaced by the ubiquitous 'regular', simply because McDonalds was embarrassed by the word small. It impoverishes vocabulary.

    Look how the new Google Mobile Search App won't work by voice unless you speak American to it.

    No thanks.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 31,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dolanbaker


    culabula wrote: »
    I would have said that Polish has considerable recognition.....I see signs written in it everywhere, information distributed in it, a mini-TV station, radio, Polish music and goods on sale and an Evening Herald supplement.

    I think it's fair to say that interest is only transient, as the Polish speakers are a migrant group. The reason for the Polish language media is simply because there is money in it!

    Give it a couple of years, after which they have either integrated into the general population (speak English as a first language etc) or have gone home (more likely due to the emerging depression), then this Polish media will disappear, Tescos have already dropped the "Polska" section.


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 5,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭ culabula


    dolanbaker wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say that interest is only transient, as the Polish speakers are a migrant group. The reason for the Polish language media is simply because there is money in it!

    Give it a couple of years, after which they have either integrated into the general population (speak English as a first language etc) or have gone home (more likely due to the emerging depression), then this Polish media will disappear, Tescos have already dropped the "Polska" section.

    That's correct, but the recognition is nonetheless there, there is hardly any room for complaint.

    Contrast this with the Irish Government's recent new lnaguage policies which have only come in after 80-odd years -too little too late.

    Having said that, I, as an Irish speaker love to be greeted in irish in Heuston, love to hear it on onboard announcements, love to experience some of the more positive developments of recent years. And I respond.

    Still plenty of Polska sections in Tesco and elsewhere round this manor, squire :-)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 Domo230


    culabula wrote: »
    Everything -it will squash all cultures, manners, ways of life.

    Because culturally were the exact same as England just because we speak the same language.
    culabula wrote: »

    Look at the 'uptalk' of young Irish people. look at the words 'small, medium, everyday, commonplace, ordinary, normal, common-or-garden', all being replaced by the ubiquitous 'regular', simply because McDonalds was embarrassed by the word small. It impoverishes vocabulary.

    What has that to do with other nations speaking the same language?
    culabula wrote: »

    Look how the new Google Mobile Search App won't work by voice unless you speak American to it.

    But I thought were the exact same as them because of our shared language :confused:


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 5,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭ culabula


    Domo230 wrote: »
    Because culturally were the exact same as England just because we speak the same language.


    What has that to do with other nations speaking the same language?


    But I thought were the exact same as them because of our shared language :confused:


    ?? What's to be confused about? That is what is happening......


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,017 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Tar.Aldarion


    Don't make a fuss about Irish, it will die itself.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Or live. It depends on the will of those who choose to speak it.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Or live. It depends on the will of those who choose to speak it.

    You are correct in everything you say wibbs. How can one argue with someone who spends so much time online? You really know what is going on. You look great on your webcam!

    southpark.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,017 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Tar.Aldarion


    I think each generation will care less about speaking it. Even those I know that can speak it, do not speak it. More people want to, and do, speak Elvish than Irish. Living in Galway you can see people grow up in the Gaeltacht speaking Irish their whole life, move out of home and never speak it again. Maybe they will if they visit home for a few days, but their kids won't. PC of people who can speak Irish from my gf's schoool: 100%. Number who ever will again, practically none. Unless somebody lives in the Gaeltacht, where there is like 20, 000 people in all of Ireland. They will teach their kids Irish and so on. This could go on for some time, but i think it will die out in the long run.

    Actually avril I'm hot, want to have sex?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    I think each generation will care less about speaking it. Even those I know that can speak it, do not speak it. More people want to, and do, speak Elvish than Irish. Living in Galway you can see people grow up in the Gaeltacht speaking Irish their whole life, move out of home and never speak it again. Maybe they will if they visit home for a few days, but their kids won't. PC of people who can speak Irish from my gf's schoool: 100%. Number who ever will again, practically none. Unless somebody lives in the Gaeltacht, where there is like 20, 000 people in all of Ireland. They will teach their kids Irish and so on. This could go on for some time, but i think it will die out in the long run.

    gaelscoil.jpg
    Actually avril I'm hot, want to have sex?

    Probably not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭ themadchef


    Firstly I think the posters coming on here, making a statement in Irish and not translating it need to cop on.


    I can only speak for my own love of the language here and my experience with it. I grew up listening to Irish, i went to school taught through English, got a weak honor in the LC, went to college and forgot all about Irish.

    My Irish was as basic as any one's. You do forget how to speak it fluently when you stop speaking it for a while. But it's part of who i am. I'm back in college now part time doing a degree in Irish....because it's that important to me. I feel embarassed when i cant find the right Irish words and get lost in conversation. I'm Irish ffs, we all speak English sure, but we're Irish.

    Someone mentioned grants for business. Yes, there are. If you live in the Gaeltacht, and can provide new jobs... I'm quite sure grants can be had. For an existing business, if half your signage is "as Gaeilge" you get a 50% grant. I work in the service industry. When we speak Irish to each other (the staff) people often comment how nice it is to hear it, especially foreigners. It is nice to hear the old songs and poetry in Irish. Not every session in the gaeltacht will include wonderwall and the likes :p.



    I want to ask all the non Irish speakers a question.

    Is it really that the Irish language means nothing to you or is it your inability to speak it that makes you feel in some way inferior. If you found in the morning, that magically, you were a fluent Irish speaker. Tell me you wouldint use it in a load of different situations! You lash out saying it's meaningless to our country as a whole, and the future generations because THE MAJORITY don't understand it? That's their choice, we choose to understand it.

    Are those of us who use it in every day life more Irish? No, obviously. We're just a bit mad :D, eccentric perhaps. If this went to referendum tomorrow i doubt very much anything would change because even though most people can't or don't speak it, they wouldn't want to see it "officially" die, even if in reality (for the majority) it's been dead for decades.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭ Paulgar


    I am originally from Dublin, but have lived in Thailand for the last six years and before that I lived in Saudi. Maybe many people might think that this should exclude me from the debate, but I am still proud to be from Ireland and will always consider myself to be Irish no matter how long I stay away.

    I always find the Irish language debate to be a bit bemusing. It is like Irish people are ashamed of their own language which when I lived there was mostly English. I always found it unusual in Ireland that there is an undercurrent sense of shame with our mother tongue -English.

    I know that this is an emotional subject, but I am sure there would be a lot less fuss about the whole thing if people thought it through properly. English is a Germanic language which migrated to English and then to Ireland. Ireland has had a great impact on the language and we should be proud of this, because this language belongs to Irish people as much as it does anybody else.

    The original inhabitants of Ireland did not speak Irish so why don't the Irish rehabilitate that language. It shouldn't be too hard and probably only involves learning a few grunts. English has more of a claim to being Ireland's language because this is what most people speak.

    I actually think that there would be far more interest in Irish language if it wasn't shoved down people's throats.

    So I do hope that Irish people one day stop basing their culture on just not being English. There is something wrong with not being proud of the language most of grew up with as out mother-tongue.


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