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Boards Referendum - English as the first language of Republic of Ireland

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Paulgar wrote: »
    out mother-tongue.

    Your mom trying to shift ya? :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭ Paulgar


    Freudian slip. I'll get back to you if I ever discover what it means.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭ topper75


    Ní poncánach mé.
    Ní sasanach mé.
    Is Gael mé.

    Sí mo chéad theangasa ar aon nós, agus is cuma liom faoi sibhse.

    Más maith libh bheith i bhur bponcánaigh nó sasanaigh, téigh go SAM nó go Sasana agus ná taraigí ar ais.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 970 Kirnsy


    tá an ghaeilge rí-thabhachtach i mo thuairimse!

    agreed the teaching in English speaking schools is less than adequate and the leaving cert course especially is extremely difficult with not enough emphasis on the SPOKEN Gaeilge, however gaelscoileanna and secondary schools through Gaeilge have produced wonderful academic results with the examples in the papers recently.

    However for people to just give up on the language and pronounce it a dead language are wrong. Tá Gaeilge sa bhfaisiún arís! With the likes of Carlsberg - i think - (cáca milis?) - and Des Bishop cashing in on Gaeilge its clear that the language is beginning to revive itself.

    for people to say its not important for our sense of culture and identity, reveals they are hugely mistaken, Gaeilge is a massive part of being unique, having our own native language whether you can speak one or one hundred words of it makes us all the more Irish :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭ Paulgar


    I didn't realise that culture was a stagnant thing. I thought that cultures evolved and were added to all the time. Is Irish culture only about a certain point in time? When exactly was that? Is Ireland meant to return to that 'special' time? What is wrong with now?


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    You are correct in everything you say wibbs. How can one argue with someone who spends so much time online? You really know what is going on.
    Maybe actually try to engage those you disagree with using cogent non scatterbrained arguments? You know, like others here. Just a thought. If that's hard to pick through for you maybe there's a creche forum around here.
    You look great on your webcam!

    southpark.jpg
    A tad banal an example, but cheers, better than your usual standard that you go for?
    themadchef wrote:
    Is it really that the Irish language means nothing to you or is it your inability to speak it that makes you feel in some way inferior. If you found in the morning, that magically, you were a fluent Irish speaker. Tell me you wouldint use it in a load of different situations!
    That's a good question. Honestly, not speaking it is not really an inferiority issue. For me anyway and for a simple reason. If I did magically become fluent I can only think of one, maybe two people I would know that could answer me in the language. If I was surrounded by Irish speakers then yes I would feel excluded from everyday discourse, but the simple fact is I'm not. Again let's take the Basque example; if I was living in northern Spain or Southern France and I could speak Spanish say fluently, but my Basque was as good as my Irish, then I would feel and be culturally inferior and excluded. Again because it would be a useful language to know as it is used on a daily basis by a significantly large part of the population. The simple fact is, regardless of the stats thrown around the place by supporters or detractors, Irish is not a living language by comparison to Basque or other minority languages. That's the unvarnished truth. It has vocal support and governmental support, but living languages don't require it. They survive and thrive largely on their own because the people want and need to speak it.

    Actually many if not all of those minority languages were just as restricted in the past as Irish was here, yet today they're vibrant and alive and used. The former soviet satellite states are a really obvious example of how a nation that wants to, brings languages back from the brink in a very short time. 10/15 year timespan. How long has Irish been pushed in this country? Indeed Irish it could be argued was very similar to Russian in those former states. Forced in school, required for government positions, civil service and the law and look what happened to Russian when people had free choice. Dosvidania baby. Is the majority language of this country English? That would be a yes. Is it supported in any way? No. Yes it is pervasive in the culture, no doubt, but so is Spanish and French(and English) in the Basque country.
    You lash out saying it's meaningless to our country as a whole, and the future generations because THE MAJORITY don't understand it? That's their choice, we choose to understand it.
    Well it's usually the Irish speakers doing the lashing out TBH. A weird mix of inferiority and superiority with not a little of that historical dichotomy regarding English thrown in. There have been many languages on this little island. Should we feel less "Irish" because they're gone or we don't speak them? Do you feel inferior as an Irish person because your medieval Irish is not up to par? Nope. Irish needs to grow and adapt to survive. It will only do that if more people use it daily. At the moment they quite simply don't. They may like to think they do, due in part to that aforementioned dichotomy, hence the census returns, but they don't.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 Nehaxak


    Methinks there be many a duplicate account being used to vote yes in this poll...


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,803 ✭✭✭ cornbb


    I don't necesessarily disagree with those of you who say that the government's policies regarding the Irish language should be somehow reformed, but I'm just sad that you don't recognise that Irish is naturally a fundamental part of life for many Irish people, leaving aside any talk of grants, compulsory teaching etc.

    I'm surprised at how frequently I hear people speaking Irish out and about in Galway city, in the last few weeks I've heard Irish spoken at the changing rooms in the gym, between a mother and toddler in a shoe shop, and on the street outside a pub. The other day I was in a shop in the Gaelteacht and heard an old man speaking Irish who could not speak English! I know this is rare. But it would be nice if some of you could acknowledge that Irish is not in fact dead and it is not only being spoken by people who are having it forced upon them.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Kirnsy wrote: »
    agreed the teaching in English speaking schools is less than adequate and the leaving cert course especially is extremely difficult with not enough emphasis on the SPOKEN Gaeilge, however gaelscoileanna and secondary schools through Gaeilge have produced wonderful academic results with the examples in the papers recently.
    Of course they have. Smaller class sizes and more involved teachers. Not Irish. Compare like with like.
    However for people to just give up on the language and pronounce it a dead language are wrong. Tá Gaeilge sa bhfaisiún arís! With the likes of Carlsberg - i think - (cáca milis?) - and Des Bishop cashing in on Gaeilge its clear that the language is beginning to revive itself.
    Well des bishop would put me off:D The caca milis example is hardly a good one if you think more on it, is it? A better example for the against side really.
    for people to say its not important for our sense of culture and identity, reveals they are hugely mistaken, Gaeilge is a massive part of being unique, having our own native language whether you can speak one or one hundred words of it makes us all the more Irish :cool:
    Eh nope it doesn't. It would if this debate wasn't happening. The fact that it is speaks volumes. Having one word of irish hardly makes me or anyone else unique and just bolsters this elitist nonsense that will kill the language for many.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Wibbs wrote: »
    If I did magically become fluent I can only think of one, maybe two people I would know that could answer me in the language.

    LOL! What a surprise! ;)

    online-living.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,503 ✭✭✭✭ Also Starring LeVar Burton


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    Methinks there be many a duplicate account being used to vote yes in this poll...

    I agree
    themadchef wrote: »
    Firstly I think the posters coming on here, making a statement in Irish and not translating it need to cop on.

    Is dóigh liomsa gur cóir d'éinne a bhfuil fadhb acu leis an easpa aistriúcháin é a rá le m'aghaidh. ;)
    To be fair, we're making our points in English, to include everyone. If someone really wanted to know what the rest of the statements meant - they could pick up a dictionary or easier yet, quote the text in question and ask for a translation - I'd be more than happy to translate. That's what I do if someone speaks to me in German and I don't understand. I have very little German, but if I was speaking to a German I'd try my best to speak in German and when I'm having trouble - merely express that.
    It's good to hear that you've gone back to college to study Gaeilge, madchef. What college are you in?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 970 Kirnsy


    Adamcp898 wrote: »

    Children who go to gaelscoileanna that speak Irish all day won't have as good a command of the English language as those who speak English all day.

    Wibbs i meant my point bout the results at this ignorant quote above.

    i feel that Gaeilge makes US as a nation unique..the fact that no other country in the world speaks our language. Nothing elitist there... i don't agree with people having to learn the language but i disagree strongly with people saying that the language is both dead and useless.

    there are plenty of people using it, maybe no where near as many who speak english but its an insult to their efforts to call it a dead language.(not saying you did Wibbs, haven't figured out the multi quote function yet!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,503 ✭✭✭✭ Also Starring LeVar Burton


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Of course they have. Smaller class sizes and more involved teachers. Not Irish. Compare like with like.

    Wrong. Same class sizes in most cases, if not more.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well des bishop would put me off:D The caca milis example is hardly a good one if you think more on it, is it? A better example for the against side really

    Wrong. Shows us that other cultures want to hear us speaking Gaeilge.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Eh nope it doesn't. It would if this debate wasn't happening. The fact that it is speaks volumes. Having one word of irish hardly makes me or anyone else unique and just bolsters this elitist nonsense that will kill the language for many.

    Wrong. I have about 2 phrases in Polish, 4 phrases in Spanish, several words in Latin, can speak a bit of French and German and am fluent in Irish and English. According to all sources that makes me unique and doesn't seem to be killing any of the above languages. FYI, Latin is not a dead language, otherwise it wouldn't appear in legal documents, university degrees, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 getz


    javaboy wrote: »
    Why does the language need preferential treatment so? Why can it not stand on its own two feet if its not dying?
    in my eyes a dead language means a language that is not changing ;irish cornish;welsh ect- unlike english that is taking on new words every year;but i do think every culture should promote is own-it would be a shame to lose the old language,


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,503 ✭✭✭✭ Also Starring LeVar Burton


    getz wrote: »
    in my eyes a dead language means a language that is not changing ;irish cornish;welsh ect- unlike english that is taking on new words every year;but i do think every culture should promote is own-it would be a shame to lose the old language,

    Who says Irish isn't changing - I know words that suggest otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with my usage of any of the words you have emboldened.

    ROFL! :rolleyes:
    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    No it certainly does not always improve one's command of a primary language. In certain related languages it can help yes for example with French, Italien and Spanish.

    It's spelt Italian you tit!
    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    Children who go to gaelscoils that speak Irish all day won't have as good a command of the English language as those who speak English all day.

    Great point, they will not be able to understand the tv, their parents, etc. They are fecked! What gael school did you go to?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭ themadchef


    madchef. What college are you in?

    NUIG. Student card discounts at 34yrs of age ftw ;)


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dr.bollocko


    ROFL! :rolleyes:


    It's spelt Italian you tit!



    Great point, they will not be able to understand the tv, their parents, etc. They are fecked! What gael school did you go to?

    That's a mighty thin line you're on there Avril. Any more personal abuse = meanie mod time.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    LOL! What a surprise! ;)

    online-living.jpg
    Ehhhhh? So you're agreeing with my point then? You're not really the sharpest at this stuff
    Wrong. Same class sizes in most cases, if not more.
    You can say that, but it's not the case, especially in urban areas. Indeed there have been complaints raised that parents are sending their kids to these schools for precisely that reason and less comfortable reasons such as far fewer of our new arrivals kids go to them.
    Wrong. Shows us that other cultures want to hear us speaking Gaeilge.
    Sorry you're wrong, or at least blinkered. It shows that while other cultures may expect us to know Irish, the whole premise and joke is that we simply don't, unless sharon ni bhaoloin actualy means something I'm unaware of(leave it:D).
    Wrong. I have about 2 phrases in Polish, 4 phrases in Spanish, several words in Latin, can speak a bit of French and German and am fluent in Irish and English. According to all sources that makes me unique and doesn't seem to be killing any of the above languages. FYI, Latin is not a dead language, otherwise it wouldn't appear in legal documents, university degrees, etc.
    Sorry again you're missing my point. I was responding to Kirnsy and his notion that whether I know one or a hundred words in Irish, makes me more Irish. Knowing "2 phrases in Polish, 4 phrases in Spanish, several words in Latin, can speak a bit of French and German" does not make you Polish, Spanish, Roman, French or German, does it?

    Actually that raises another point; if I did strive to become fluent in Irish and actually got to that point, how would I know I was speaking like a native? I couldn't and I wouldn't be. I could live in France for 30 years, be fluent in French, yet a French person will pretty quickly spot I'm not a local.

    Let's say we decided to revive French here(the Normans spoke it) and we learned French and taught it to our kids. French people would spot the difference. Would we be anymore French?

    So what we have is not really Irish anymore for the most part. It's a melding of dialects spoken and taught by non natives and is in effect a partially new language. Which kinda kills much of the "culture" angle.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 getz


    Who says Irish isn't changing - I know words that suggest otherwise.
    dont misunderstand me what i mean to say is that any country that has to pass laws to keep its language going says to me that the language is dead even in spain language laws are passed, in france tv and radio has to conform ,to goverment regulation on how much english is to be used in the boardcasts


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    themadchef wrote: »
    I want to ask all the non Irish speakers a question.

    Is it really that the Irish language means nothing to you or is it your inability to speak it that makes you feel in some way inferior. If you found in the morning, that magically, you were a fluent Irish speaker. Tell me you wouldint use it in a load of different situations! You lash out saying it's meaningless to our country as a whole, and the future generations because THE MAJORITY don't understand it? That's their choice, we choose to understand it.

    It's not an inferiority thing for me anyway. And it's not that the language means nothing to me or that I think it's meaningless to the country as a whole either. I'm not proposing the language be eradicated or scrubbed from the constitution. It's part of our history, heritage and culture. Just like growing spuds, building crannógs and playing hurling. That doesn't mean those things should be artificially preserved outside of museums. If people want to learn Irish, there's nothing stopping them and nor should there be. My main gripe is with the artificial supports Irish receives. It should be allowed to live or die on its own.

    If I woke up tomorrow morning and could speak fluent Irish, I'd be delighted actually. Not because of any cultural benefit but because if and when I have kids and they are forced to learn Irish like I was, I can help them out a little more so they can do better in the exam.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭ themadchef


    javaboy wrote: »

    If I woke up tomorrow morning and could speak fluent Irish, I'd be delighted actually. Not because of any cultural benefit but because if and when I have kids and they are forced to learn Irish like I was, I can help them out a little more so they can do better in the exam.

    There are at least 4 people in my class because they want to help their kids out with Irish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ AvrilLavigne


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Ehhhhh? So you're agreeing with my point then? You're not really the sharpest at this stuff

    It relates to your lack of real life (friends)!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,095 ✭✭✭✭ javaboy


    themadchef wrote: »
    There are at least 4 people in my class because they want to help their kids out with Irish.

    My parents tried to do the same thing with evening classes but we learned quicker than they did so it didn't work. :D Helping my future kids with Irish for school is the only non-hypocritical reason I can ever see for me learning Irish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,760 ✭✭✭✭ dlofnep


    Vótáil níl. Gaeilge abú!


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,071 ✭✭✭✭ Terry


    It relates to your lack of real life (friends)!
    Right. That's enough trolling from you.

    You were warned and you chose not to heed the warning.

    Banned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭ Tchaikovsky


    Yep, I think English definitely is the "national" language of Ireland... and in the grand spirit of modern Ireland, we should 'ban' our own language. And while we're at it, why not get rid of any other vestige of a national identity we may have?
    You know, our accents (a work in progress, I know), our music, pride and awareness in our history, our public houses etc etc
    Hurrah!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭ Tchaikovsky


    Nie, przepraszam?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,015 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Tar.Aldarion



    Probably not.

    I can work with probably.


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