DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

fitz1985 · 17-10-2007 3:34am #1

The following thread contains information and posts merged from a number of different sources and posts. The merged posts are automtically sorted in chronological order, therefore some posts may seam out of place. Apologies for any confusion as it can't be avoided

BER ISSUES

hey everyone just curious if there is many people out there that are qualified in doing ber cert's yet. i have been given the post qualification for my cert as it cant offically be put through the government till oct(this month) but i am am to do the certs with the downloaded program from the site but i still have to get aqualified architect to sign off on what i do s long as he/she seem happy enough with the work i have done. and as for being in running with building reg's what i have is qualified so it should go through. just curious if anyone out there is in the same situation as me or have actually got the full cert and are using the program efficently and effectly with the councils.

any feed back would be more then greatful.

thankfully,

dave.

Mellor · 25-01-2008 1:20pm

It is predicted that more an more houses that applied for planning after 1st Jan 2007 will be approaching completion soon.
As you may be aware, these houses will require a BER assessment and Cert.
Hopefully this thread will provide all the required info regarding;

Which buildings require BER Certs
When are BER Certs required
What is required,
Who can carry out the assessment

Basic info
The first point of call is "Sustainable Energy Ireland" (SEI). Their website has a list of approved assessors, courses and FAQs aimed at the householder.
SEI's page on BER

Various BER FAQs

The topic has been discussed in various threads, in order to prevent doubling up of info and/or two parallel discussions taking place worthwile posts on the subject of BER and DEAP will be moved here shortly..

Mellor · 25-01-2008 1:27pm

Which houses require BER certs?

New dwellings: A BER Cert is required in houses for which planning permission was applied for on or after 1st January 2007.
Transitional BER exemptions will apply to new dwellings for which planning permission is applied on or before 31st December 2006, where the new dwellings involved are substantially completed on or before 30th June 2008.

Existing Buildings (dwellings and other buildings) when offered for sale or letting will require a BER Cert from the 1st January 2009.

muffler · 25-01-2008 1:32pm

Nice one. Well done Mellor.

Mellor · 25-01-2008 1:38pm

Exempt buildings

For information purposes. In general, this won't apply to the majority of dwellings.

The following buildings are exempt from BER cert requirement;

National monuments*;
Protected structures*;
Places of worship or buildings used for the religious activities of any religion;
Certain temporary buildings;
Non-residential industrial or agricultural buildings with a low installed heating capacity (less than 10 W/m2);
Stand alone buildings with a small useful floor area (less than 50m2).

*National monuments are defined by the national monument act 1930-2004, and Protected structures are listed in each Local authority's development plan

sinnerboy · 25-01-2008 6:12pm

Point to note -

A house , even if permission was applied for before 31 Dec 2006 but if not substantially completed by 30 June 2008 ( i.e this summer ) will require a BER cert before it is occupied . This may apply to more than a few .

holdfast · 28-01-2008 10:50pm

Did anyone hear when the course for the existing houses will be ready ??

Also anyone else come across the case where the SEI have employed a independent assesors to check the ratings in the local area ?? i heard it from a fellow engineer.

sydthebeat · 29-01-2008 1:02pm

According to the construct ireland magazine this month, every assessment being submitted is being audited currently. This situation cant continue the more submission are made, but its great to know the SEI are serious about policing it!!!

Brando_ie · 30-01-2008 2:14pm

Mellor wrote: »

Which houses require BER certs?

New dwellings: A BER Cert is required in houses for which planning permission was applied for on or after 1st January 2007.
Transitional BER exemptions will apply to new dwellings for which planning permission is applied on or before 31st December 2006, where the new dwellings involved are substantially completed on or before 30th June 2008.

Existing Buildings (dwellings and other buildings) when offered for sale or letting will require a BER Cert from the 1st January 2009.

On that point. For example, lets say a house which was constructed in 2005 and based on a permission granted say 2003 is offered up for sale in the middle of 2009 or later, will it require a BER cert?? and if so, how would you retrofit such a house (i.e at least two U-Value regulation upgrades later?). Or does reading the last point mean, any houses built or applied for from 2008 will require a cert after 2009?? Perhaps you can expand on it?

davidoco · 30-01-2008 2:21pm

Brando_ie wrote: »

On that point. For example, lets say a house which was constructed in 2005 and based on a permission granted say 2003 is offered up for sale in the middle of 2009 or later, will it require a BER cert?? and if so, how would you retrofit such a house (i.e at least two U-Value regulation upgrades later?). Or does reading the last point mean, any houses built or applied for from 2008 will require a cert after 2009?? Perhaps you can expand on it?

My understanding is that you can't fail a BER test, just get a bad reading. Your house would (should) have been constructed to the building regs at the time. Getting a G on the test would make a purchaser look twice.

Brando_ie · 30-01-2008 2:40pm

davidoco wrote: »

My understanding is that you can't fail a BER test, just get a bad reading. Your house would (should) have been constructed to the building regs at the time. Getting a G on the test would make a purchaser look twice.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

Mellor · 30-01-2008 4:48pm

All house regardless of when they were built will need a cert once on the markey after from 2009 onwards, but they don't have to meet any min standards.

holdfast · 01-02-2008 10:30am

I have been searching the net lately seeing what people are charging for an BER assessment. I have notice there are "McDonalds" type companies selling fast food or should fast rating service. They get as many assessors to buy into the idea or train Joe soap and they become a nation wide company. It seems the guys are calling themselves guru’s when they have a forum they can log on to the site and ask questions of the one guy probably who understands anything about energy. I looked at one page here was a guy who was accountant and part time farmer opening an office. Mad really I love the BER scheme it, it is doing what the government wants to leave you bitter and twisted.

sydthebeat · 01-02-2008 12:19pm

As a Technician i am trying to market myself separate to these 'Mc Donalds' type BER assessors...(love the analogy BTW)...

I have been quoted as little as 275 yo yos (including the €50 sei fee for a prov and final) for a 2500 dormer...... i will not be competing with this. I hope to be able to use my construction knowledge (or lack of

..) to aid the client get better performance... above and beyond the generic advisory report available on the SEI website......

alas i feel i wont get much work if my quotes are 2-3 times the Mikey D version.

topcatcbr · 02-02-2008 8:13pm

Hi syd i have been watching this and the many other discussions on this topic with interest i am also an architectural technition & recently completed the ber assessors course. i think that €275 would be appropriate for a 3 bed semi and about €400 for 2500ft dormer is appropriate. i wonder is there many people at the moment making any money at it yet. i cannot see any way of enforcing this.

sydthebeat · 02-02-2008 8:32pm

275..... minus 50 for SEi = 200
200 might be acceptable for a housing scheme with generic specifications, if you are doing batches of 5-10 a time.

400 for a one off dormer house is too small, in my opinion, to do the job properly.

ruskin · 02-02-2008 8:47pm

hello,

ive read conflicting reports about what is actually needed to become a fully registered ber assessor on the internet. Basically my question is, what MUST one have to do this? SEI mention that professional indemnity unsurance is not specifically required, while other areas state that PI and public liability insurance is needed, as well as a garda clearance (of course along with completing the course and registering with SEI). Is any insurance needed? Im a 23 year old engineer and am greatly interested in the BER system, just wondering what would it cost me to become a BER assessor
thanks

Mellor · 02-02-2008 8:53pm

Im not actually sure if PI is legally needed.
But you would be foolish to even consider work without it

topcatcbr · 02-02-2008 9:31pm

Hi Fitz im in the same situation as you should get cert this month

sinnerboy · 02-02-2008 9:44pm

completed the course recently , expect to be registered in March . according to my tutor , 750 people have passed the course , 250 have registered .

be clear the cert you produce is yours and yours alone - no one should be checking it as you describe - you will have to "stand over it " yourself at all times

sinnerboy · 02-02-2008 9:50pm

course i did cost €2k .

you pay a registration fee each year - €1k for first year €500 each year after that

each lable issued costs ( you ) €25.00

I have not looked into it yet except to note that "flyers" attached to the rear of my course notes indicate an annual permium of €500 . I expect that the more certs you issue the more the premium will cost you .

As Mellor says don't even think about not having PI ..............

ruskin · 03-02-2008 11:52am

Im not suggesting not complying with what is asked of me in any way, but aside from the course cost which costs me:

Course €1800
SEI registration €1000, €500 a year thereafter

what sort of costs would PI insurance set me back? Excuse my ignorance of this, its just I have been working in a practice as an engineer for a year, where issues such as PI insurance never bothered me

sydthebeat · 03-02-2008 4:30pm

a friend of mine got quoted €500 for €250,000 PI insurance...

its a question of how much insurance you need to be covered by....

Mellor · 03-02-2008 5:53pm

I have no idea what kind of PI you would be talking of.
Should it be the max value (total) of a house,
or the max liability?

corboy · 04-02-2008 4:01pm

Hi all,
We have just had an NEA report done on our house design, it proposes a lot of thing but 1 of which is to install windows with a U value of no more than 1.2, this is including both the glass and the frame together. Has anybody come across some they could reccomend as I am struggling to find any?

Cheers

sydthebeat · 04-02-2008 4:28pm

nordan do a double glazed 1.2 window...
they also do a 0.7 u value triple glazed.

i have nothing to do with this company.
http://www.nordan.ie/html/contact_details.html

ps.. whats an NEA report?

corboy · 04-02-2008 4:40pm

National Energy Accessor

If you give them a copy of your plans, they list out what you should be using based on the design to improve your energy rating, from insulation types to solar panels or undefloor heating. Its pretty good, helps in the decision making process.

We arent too keen to go tripple glazing because from what we were told we wouldnt get that much benefit from it. We are rural so noise isnt an issue and supposedly the irish climate doesnt have the extremes to require triple galzing

I'll take a look at NorDan,

thanks sydthebeat

smashey · 04-02-2008 4:44pm

I'm merging this with the BER thread as NEA are BER assessors.

Mellor · 04-02-2008 4:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

275..... minus 50 for SEi = 200
200 might be acceptable for a housing scheme with generic specifications, if you are doing batches of 5-10 a time.

400 for a one off dormer house is too small, in my opinion, to do the job properly.

How long (hours work) would you expect to spend on a semi to carry out an assessment. Say for new build and existing.

sydthebeat · 04-02-2008 5:27pm

Mellor wrote: »

How long (hours work) would you expect to spend on a semi to carry out an assessment. Say for new build and existing.

if you are doing semis (same house types) in batches its easy.. basically when you do the first you have 90% of the work done for all the others..youve already worked out u values, areas of floor, wall and ceiling types, heating systems and controls etc..... all that changes is window orientation, sheltering etc.

However on one offs, you could be talking about 2 different floor types... maybe 2-3 wall types and usually 3-4 roof types (dormers, storey and a half etc)... therefore although the floor area might only be double, the work involved in a one off could be triple or quadruple...... to do it properly that is.....plus theres a lot more scope in an advisory report in a one off than a scheme... typically developers would want a quick fix solution as all they want to do is sell... clients of one offs will be living in them and paying the heating bills.... thats why i will be trying to market myself in this catagory.

cwboy · 04-02-2008 8:00pm

Now that new builds have to have a BER would you recommend going that little extra and getting the assesment from the plans before I build to aid decision making? How much extra roughly would you be looking at over just the cert?

sinnerboy · 04-02-2008 8:01pm

yes . shop around

ardara1 · 05-02-2008 10:40am

cwboy wrote: »

Now that new builds have to have a BER would you recommend going that little extra and getting the assesment from the plans before I build to aid decision making? How much extra roughly would you be looking at over just the cert?

A DEAP calculation (On which the BER is based) must be done at design stage to prove the design complies with Part L Building Regulations - these results will give an indicative KWhr/m2/annum result - resulting in an indicative BER rating. A DEAP calc should be done by your architect or engineer before giving you the plans - the software is freely downloadable from the SEI website, and building control (if you can find one) will ask for a copy to confirm compliance. If they've spec'd the house to the 2006 elemental values, and you haven't too much glazing you'll get a C1 - if you go to 2008 min standards you'll get a B1 - THEORETICALLY - ON PAPER

If you want to put pressure on your builders, if you want recommendations on energy efficiency, if you want a more accurate label - speak to an ENERGY CONSULTANT ie a BER assessor that knows what they're doing - they'll work along with your architect and builder to deliver a better performing building - but you'll have to pay for it - but it'll pay off in the long run.

From what is be said on this forum there a lot of BER assessors out there that will do no more than give you a piece of paper - it's the cheaper option.

sydthebeat · 05-02-2008 1:19pm

Has anyone confirmation yet as to who exactly is requesting the BER??

I have been in contact with solicitors and thy know nothing about it, they havent received any circulars from the Law Society.

I would assume it should be requested at the same time as a cert of compliance / completion.....

Mellor · 05-02-2008 1:42pm

I thouht it would be requested at point of sale. might be 2009 before its in full swing when housing stock is affected

sydthebeat · 05-02-2008 1:49pm

This isnt a question of when its required, its a question of who requires it.. legally....

in the majority of situations currently, there is no sale..... ie for one off rural houses.
its required at the point of occupancy, but by whom.

ardara1 · 05-02-2008 2:50pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Has anyone confirmation yet as to who exactly is requesting the BER??

I have been in contact with solicitors and thy know nothing about it, they havent received any circulars from the Law Society.

I would assume it should be requested at the same time as a cert of compliance / completion.....

PART 3- BUILDING ENERGY RATING
7. (1) A person who commissions the construction of a building of a class referred to in
subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of which commences on or after
such date specified for that class in the said subparagraphs shall, before such building
is occupied for the first time, secure a BER certificate (in the form prescribed by the
First Schedule or Second Schedule to these Regulations, as appropriate) and advisory
report in relation to the building and shall produce a printed copy of such BER certificate
and advisory report to the building control authority in whose functional area the
building is situated, on demand being made by that authority for its production.
(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
(a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4)
construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class
in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
(b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1
January 2009,
and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall
produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the
building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the
building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the
building is situated.
(3) Where a new building is constructed, the following applies for the purposes of
subparagraph (2) (a):
(i) where the building is being offered for sale or letting (whether in writing or
otherwise) on the basis of the plans and specifications for its proposed
construction, a printed copy of the provisional BER certificate in the form
prescribed in the Second Schedule to these Regulations based on these
plans and specifications in relation to the proposed building, and related
advisory report, shall be produced to any of the persons referred to in
paragraph (2);
(ii) on the completion of construction of the building referred to in subparagraph
(i) a printed copy of the BER certificate in the form prescribed in the First
Schedule to these Regulations and of the related advisory report in relation to
the completed building, which take account of any changes implemented
during its construction relative to the plans, specifications or other data on
which the provisional BER was based, shall be produced to any purchaser or
tenant, before completion of such sale or letting and, on demand, to the
building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated.
(4) Subject to paragraph (5), a BER certificate is required for the following classes of
buildings with effect from the dates specified hereunder for each class –
(a) new dwellings commencing on or after 1 January 2007;
(b) new buildings, other than dwellings, commencing on or after
1 July 2008;
(c) buildings of any class in existence at 1 January 2009 offered
for sale or letting on or after 1 January 2009.

sydthebeat · 05-02-2008 3:03pm

by my reading of that then Ardara is that it is simply the responsibility of the client to have a BER issued before they occupy the 'new dwelling'.....

what a stupid situation. Why is it left to the (generally) inexperienced client to know the ins and outs of building law??? How are they supposed to know this, or who is supposed to let them know??

Who can police that anyway???

Are the SEI going to fine a self builder who moves into his new house without a BER?? How would they know?? Are they dependent on the shambolic 'building control' section of LAs?? How would a building control section know if theres no commencement notice sent in, which occurs in many situations.

Was this legislation written up with only housing developments in mind?? and the 30,000 or so rural dwellings build every year can do what they like.....

oh, why i should expect anything less... this countrys whole building control is a joke.....

sydthebeat · 05-02-2008 6:05pm

My reading on this after some further investigation is that its the remit, now, of the local authority building control section to demand BER certification and advisory reports from owners or developers of dwellings before point of occupancy or sale / letting. The whole administration of this is left to a section of local government that is often under-staffed, over worked and under resourced. This throws up some very pertinent questions. I base these question from experience of local authorities and building administration in the midlands:

1. How does the Building Control know a dwelling has commenced? Currently, although required by law, there is no penalty if a commencement notice is not sent in. Therefore there is no onus on a client submitting one.
2. How does the building control know the dwelling is complete? They currently are only achieving 1 visit to 10-15% of new dwellings.. thats a serious shorfall in what they are required to do. So
3. Do the creators of this legislation seriously think that a judge would penalise a client who pleads ignorance of the BER requirements?? I doubt it. I dont know what levels the catalytic converter in my car is supposed to be at, would i be penalised if its incorrect?
4. Why isnt the BER requested as a legal addendum to certificates of compliance. That would be the logical placement for what is inherently a legal document. Therefore it can be administered by solicitors and the Law Society.

I will email these questions to the SEI for clarification and post any response.

sinnerboy · 05-02-2008 7:46pm

certs of compliance ( or lack of ) do not have to form part of a conveyancing ( sale ) . law society requires purchsers solicitors to SEEK certs . vendors side can "declare" they wont be provided , and sale proceeds usually .

RIAI made this point to DOE - that certs ought be required for sales to complete .

Now ..... lets see how solicitors / law society implement the BER cert regime .

Gumbo · 05-02-2008 9:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

a friend of mine got quoted €500 for €250,000 PI insurance...

its a question of how much insurance you need to be covered by....

hi guys, im still a bit confused as to hy we would need PI insurance.
i have been a cad technician for 6 years now, do alot of nixers for planning applications etc etc and have an ordinary degree in structural engineering from DIT bolton street.

my co (consulting engineers) are send me and 2 other guys on the BER assessor course this monthe and please god we will pass.

when it comes to registering with the SEI, we are gonna register as ourselves but if we do any assesments through the co. then of course we would be covered through the company name and insurance, but if i done one for joe soap down the road, what kinda insurance would i have to safeguard myself agains??

as in, if we specify a beam, and it fails then our insurance is for the loss and destruction that comes with the failure, but what can go wrong with an assessment?

thanks in advance guys,
keith.

Mellor · 05-02-2008 10:46pm

You are right in that you would be covered through the company, but that only covers companies work.
But the companies PI still needs to cover assessments,
using the beam example, the PI covers against structural failure and loss of property etc.
For an assessment, the PI would need to cover against the possible devaluation of a property of a property due to mis-assessment, being too high or too low will affect someone which will eventually get back to you.

ardara1 · 06-02-2008 8:10am

kceire wrote: »

hi guys, im still a bit confused as to hy we would need PI insurance.
.

Prosecution
24. (1) Proceedings for an offence under of these Regulations may be brought and
prosecuted by the building control authority or the issuing authority as
appropriate.
(2) Where an offence under these Regulations is committed by a body corporate,
or by an unincorporated body of persons, or by a person purporting to act on
behalf of a body corporate or on behalf of an unincorporated body of persons,
and it is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of or to
be attributable to any neglect on the part of any person who when the offence
was committed, was, or purported to act as, a director, manager, secretary or
other officer or member of such body, such other person as well as the body, or
the person purporting to act on behalf of the body, commits an offence and is
liable to be proceeded against and punished as if he or she were guilty of the first
mentioned offence.

sydthebeat · 06-02-2008 10:18am

sinnerboy wrote: »

certs of compliance ( or lack of ) do not have to form part of a conveyancing ( sale ) . law society requires purchsers solicitors to SEEK certs . vendors side can "declare" they wont be provided , and sale proceeds usually .

RIAI made this point to DOE - that certs ought be required for sales to complete .

Now ..... lets see how solicitors / law society implement the BER cert regime .

The problem here SB is that the administering of the BER has nothing to do with solicitors / law society... according to the legislation anyway.

The first part of your post is a debate for another day

Gumbo · 06-02-2008 10:58am

Mellor wrote: »

You are right in that you would be covered through the company, but that only covers companies work.
But the companies PI still needs to cover assessments,
using the beam example, the PI covers against structural failure and loss of property etc.
For an assessment, the PI would need to cover against the possible devaluation of a property of a property due to mis-assessment, being too high or too low will affect someone which will eventually get back to you.

i get it now mellor, thanks

sydthebeat · 06-02-2008 1:52pm

After a conversation with my local Building control officer here, it seems they are not viewing it any different to every other aspect of building control. A client must produce it if demanded, but theres only a 1 in 6 chance of it being demanded of them.... ??????

.... similarly when the revised regs are commissioned they will required DEAP calculations to show compliance.

The onus is specifically left onto the client or the 'person who commissions the building'.....

this will really only hit in in earnest next year when auctioneers will be the main drivers of it as agents for clients at the point of sale or rent. For owner occupiers, it will be the architect who has to practically inform their clients that a BER is needed before a dwelling is occupied. not legally, but practically...

06-02-2008 5:35pm

Sydthebeat, I am an Architectural technician as well and am waiting on my FETAC cert for ber assessor. When I questioned the standards and pricing issues I was told that eventually the industry will self regulate.
I am 100% with your approach. charge between 500-600 euro per dwelling aimed at one off houses.
Do the assessment accurately and correctly, and spend time on a report making recommendations that not just improve that rating but the general energy efficiency of the house, most of the stuff I learned on the course went over everybodys head or just plain didnt make sense. Myself and another technician did the course along with a civil engineer, a plumber, electrician, a guard, several auctioneers and a dairy farmer. The lecturers obviously knew nothing about heating systems or building structure as everytime a question was asked on anything technical they just fluffed over it with the result that people were trying to put in 500mm insulation in the floors and walls or use gas boilers as secondry heating to electricity in apartments etc.
Personally I think that in order to do the assessments correctly and be a good assessor you will need some good construction experience, a bit of knowledge on electrics and plumbing and a lot of research into sustainable technologies and the average man-on-the-street that may have done the course doesnt have this.
The NEA(I read an article on them once where they used thermal imaging on an existing house) make recommendations in 3 catagories, Free, cheap and intensive.
Things like closing curtains at night, turning off lights etc come in under free. Increasing insulation, improving windows, installing a more efficient boiler etc. come in under cheap and intensive covered ground source heat pumps, solar panels and other inovative energy efficient measures. It doesnt sound like too much extra work but it would be a great help to a client.

sydthebeat · 06-02-2008 5:46pm

250882,
Im not too worried about the current prominence of 'non-construction' BER assessors.
Once the revised Part L regs kick in and compliance with Part L HAS to be show using DEAP calculations, i will be able to market myself as both a certifier and a BER assessor, and can charge accordingly. Picture this, a client is building a dwelling, he engages my company to certify compliance with building regs and PP. As part of this certification i have to show, by calculation, that the dwelling complies with Part L using DEAP.... at this point (probably pre commencement.. using supplied spec) i can give him a provisional BER cert and write up a good advisory report, using construction technology. On completion, this client is not going to go off to a separate BER assessor for the final BER, i will be able to produce on easily as i would have 90% of the work done already.

So i will be assimilating my BER fee into the overall certification process and charge accordingly.

therefore i can see the construction educated BER assessors as surviving the initial free for all...

I also hope to market myself towards certifiers who do not know how to nor want to certify Part L... so i see this as another inroad into it.

holdfast · 07-02-2008 11:02pm

QUOTE]The NEA(I read an article on them once where they used thermal imaging on an existing house) make recommendations in 3 catagories, Free, cheap and intensive.[[/QUOTE]

I think if you look into the NEA you will find they are more flash than bang and this standard of report is common for years

sinnerboy · 12-02-2008 11:37am

According to SEI input into Homebond Right on the Site seminar last night

Estimated requirement for no of BER assessors in Ireland -- 2000
no already qualified 800
no registered 300

Methodology for assessing older houses ( i.e . no architect / builder to certify construction ) is "being developed" . Should be complete in 2 / 3 months .

comment -
Then course providers have devise syllabus and assessors have to re train - bumpy road ahead , come New Year ? I think so

ardara1 · 12-02-2008 11:49am

sinnerboy wrote: »

According to SEI input into Homebond Right on the Site seminar last night

Estimated requirement for no of BER assessors in Ireland -- 2000
no already qualified 800
no registered 300

Methodology for assessing older houses ( i.e . no architect / builder to certify construction ) is "being developed" . Should be complete in 2 / 3 months .

comment -
Then course providers have devise syllabus and assessors have to re train - bumpy road ahead , come New Year ? I think so

Did u learn anything last nite Sinner?

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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