DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

Is that still due to the software not been ready for existing houses?

i would go a step futher and say its because the procedure isnt finalised yet. We have DEAP for new houses, which needs to be upgraded to incorporate 1st July 2008 changes.....

We have no idea whats up and coming for existing houses.

There is a BER workshop for SEI registered assessors as part of the energy show, so i should have more info for you after april 16th.

smooth operater

sydthebeat wrote: »

We have DEAP for new houses, which needs to be upgraded to incorporate 1st July 2008 changes.....

Thats up on the SEI website already...

sydthebeat

thats the xls worksheet and not the 'stand alone' crystal (?) software.

smooth operater

True, but it tells you whether or not it complies with the July regulations.
Its a case of doing the deap on the xls sheet, then transferring it over.

-unlaoised-

Hello,
If a house has an internal garage how would you enter this into DEAP in the building elements section.
Also the first floor overhangs the ground floor by 1m, am i correct in saying that this will be another floor to be calculated. The build up of this floor is not given though.
I am doing an assignment and do not have a similar example. also it's a year since I did the BER course and I cannot remember exactly how to do it.

Thanks.

holdfast

I was at a lecture that said a passive house would get a B rating in the new energy rating system. Anyone any thoughts on it. the difference of delivered engery v primary energy does not help, dims are taken from different points.

smooth operater

holdfast wrote: »

I was at a lecture that said a passive house would get a B rating in the new energy rating system. Anyone any thoughts on it. the difference of delivered engery v primary energy does not help, dims are taken from different points.

Where/Who was this lecture?

holdfast

Before attending the passive house conference in Germany. It was given by an architect working for a company design passive houses and attended by SEI. It was interesting I did not get a chance to really ask question on it. I am going to run my own calcualtions on this one and see.

ardara1

holdfast wrote: »

I was at a lecture that said a passive house would get a B rating in the new energy rating system. Anyone any thoughts on it. the difference of delivered engery v primary energy does not help, dims are taken from different points.

Nonsense Holdfast - new regs from July want 40% better (Carbon & Energy use) - the will typically be B1 (some B2's) - Green Party want Zero carbon (Passive) by 2012 - well into A's

Passive house goals/definition
the total energy demand for space heating and cooling is limited to 15 kWh/m² treated floor area;
the total primary energy use for all appliances, domestic hot water and space heating and cooling is limited to 120 kWh/m²

holdfast

]

DEAP measures primary energy where the space heating in the passive house is measured in delivered. Big difference. I know this is not a straight as that but they are differences in the way the rate houses also in terms of measurement. Passive house takes outside dims where inside dims are used in DEAP and you could go on. Don’t treat me like I am an a**. I am telling what the architect from the only register passive house told us in front of the DEAP guru`s before heading to the passive house conference. Do the calcs and see what you come up with. I have not ran the calcs but I hope to

sydthebeat

I attended the SEI seminar today at the energy show. Nothing much to state other than they still have a lot to do.

The software has yet to be completed for the revised part L

The survey methodology for existing houses is almost ready. They hope to have accrediated training courses up and going by august / sept.... This will be (AFAIK) a top up course about the survey methodology. This course will then have an end exam, but SEI themselves will have an 'on tour' exam akin to the driver theory test which u have to pass to register.
From what i can remember there will be a top up registration fee of €100.

Basically they still have loads to do.

The Q & A session was good for airing issues. The focus they are putting on BER is really at the sale / rent market which the see at the main instigator. They will be running advert campaign and will be meeting the law society conveyancing committee (why they havent done it by now is beyond me)....

probably more from me tomorrow when i review the hand outs.....

ardara1

holdfast wrote: »

]

DEAP measures primary energy where the space heating in the passive house is measured in delivered. Big difference. I know this is not a straight as that but they are differences in the way the rate houses also in terms of measurement. Passive house takes outside dims where inside dims are used in DEAP and you could go on. Don’t treat me like I am an a**. I am telling what the architect from the only register passive house told us in front of the DEAP guru`s before heading to the passive house conference. Do the calcs and see what you come up with. I have not ran the calcs but I hope to

SORRY!! Holdfast - I did not mean to demean YOUR comment - was it not the architect that said it?

The only passive house in Ireland is in the process of going thru' a pretty rigorous monitoring regime for a while- lets wait 'till the results comer out to see how passive the building is.

As for the internal external dimensions thing- is this not more relevant to how the thermal bridging PSI values are measured? and if so - the fact hat DEAP or the authorities regulating measurement of same do not understand the principals involved make comparison with and BER rating nonsense? - again sorry fir using the word nonsense - but it's not addressed to you - you raise a VERY interesting point.

Chimpster

sydthebeat wrote: »

I attended the SEI seminar today at the energy show.

Yeah, I was in attendance. Loads to do is right...

One or two of the questions from the floor would you wondering at the knowledge of some of the trained assessors????

I wanted some clarification on the 'Independence' of the BER assessor. From what I gather they are publishing the assessors business interests beside their name on the register. I asked for the mic a few times but I was stuck in a corner.

So it looks like its up to the client to deem how independent an assessor actually is?

smooth operater

holdfast wrote: »

Before attending the passive house conference in Germany. It was given by an architect working for a company design passive houses and attended by SEI. It was interesting I did not get a chance to really ask question on it. I am going to run my own calcualtions on this one and see.

This was an architect from a company MosArt

ardara1 wrote: »

Nonsense Holdfast - new regs from July want 40% better (Carbon & Energy use) - the will typically be B1 (some B2's) - Green Party want Zero carbon (Passive) by 2012 - well into A's

Passive house goals/definition
the total energy demand for space heating and cooling is limited to 15 kWh/m² treated floor area;
the total primary energy use for all appliances, domestic hot water and space heating and cooling is limited to 120 kWh/m²

As posted, there are so many variables with the Deap analysis and Passive analysis, main difference being the delivered vs primary, however its the secondary heating that screws the passive design afaik, I'd have to look into it

ardara1 wrote: »

SORRY!! Holdfast - I did not mean to demean YOUR comment - was it not the architect that said it?

The only passive house in Ireland is in the process of going thru' a pretty rigorous monitoring regime for a while- lets wait 'till the results comer out to see how passive the building is.

Which house is this your referring to? Afaik, the people at MosArt were the first people to design a passive house in Ireland? (Correct me if i'm wrong)

topcatcbr

I was there yesterday also the 10am workshop. Someone made the point that as assessors we have invested heavily and put our faith in sei to promote this and have been let down. he got a round of applause.
Some quick facts from the sei handouts
455 BERS currently on public register
514 Registered BER Assessors

1639 Qualified BER Assessors
How many waiting on results?

Original target = 2000

the amount of assessments done thus far is less than the amount of assessors
Consider that of the assessments done many were in housing estates done by one assessor.

ircoha

topcatcbr wrote: »

I was there yesterday also the 10am workshop. Someone made the point that as assessors we have invested heavily and put our faith in sei to promote this and have been let down. he got a round of applause.
Some quick facts from the sei handouts
455 BERS currently on public register
514 Registered BER Assessors

1639 Qualified BER Assessors
How many waiting on results?

Origonal target = 2000

the amount of assessments done thus far is less than the amount of assessors
Consider that of the assments done many were in housing estates done by one assessor.

Whats the difference/relationship between

BERS currently on public register
Registered BER Assessors
Qualified BER Assessors

Thanks.
ps
re from ardara1

Passive house goals/definition
the total energy demand for space heating and cooling is limited to 15 kWh/m² treated floor area;
the total primary energy use for all appliances, domestic hot water and space heating and cooling is limited to 120 kWh/m²

Is that an eu definition or an sei one: thanks

topcatcbr

ircoha wrote: »

Whats the difference/relationship between

BERS currently on public register
Registered BER Assessors
Qualified BER Assessors

Thanks.
ps
re from ardara1


Is that an eu definition or an sei one: thanks

BERs = Building Energy Ratings (Certs) on public register= filled and registered with SEI ( Completed and approved assessments)
Registered BER Assessors = People who have passed the BER Exam and are registered with SEI
Qualified BER Assessors= People who have passed the BER Exam but are not necessessarily registered with SEI
SEI = Sustainable Energy Ireland

ircoha

Many thanks:
from sei.ie
<<A registration fee of €1,000 (plus VAT) is required to register with SEI as a BER Assessor. General registration will be on an annual basis and a fee of €500 (plus VAT) will be charged for annual renewal of registration. >> just wondering how long is the training valid for before u need to register: was at the ES today and a nice girl with plenty silicone implants offered me a BER training course at 1475, 300 less than normal price: a show special!

explains a lot:eek:
some bread being spent on this already
2100 training courses at 2k a pop = 4.2 mill
514 registrations 0.5 mill
455 assessments at 300 0.1 mill
so [4.2 + 0,5 + 0.1]/455 = 11k a cert:eek:

[I know the math is a bit selective but no harm to crunch the numbers]

holdfast

its grand ardara1 and sorry for shooting my mouth off.

yes it was an architech from mosart and they were the first.

I also think the DEAP has a mandatory heating times and period which may not link up with php

Green_Man

topcatcbr wrote: »

I was there yesterday also the 10am workshop. Someone made the point that as assessors we have invested heavily and put our faith in sei to promote this and have been let down. he got a round of applause.
Some quick facts from the sei handouts
455 BERS currently on public register
514 Registered BER Assessors

1639 Qualified BER Assessors
How many waiting on results?

Original target = 2000

the amount of assessments done thus far is less than the amount of assessors
Consider that of the assessments done many were in housing estates done by one assessor.

I do agree, SEI seem to have let them down, they are not doing enough to promote and enforce the laws for BER certs on the existing new house builds. I was also at the show and did see a stand with guys promoting a ber directory site. I guess something like daft. might be good for public awarness?

G

JohnnyBingo

Seeing as anyone who provides a BER assessment will have to be registered with SEI (available for taxman to inspect), is anyone concerned about being able to do these as a nixer and still carry on with the day job? I'm sure developers will want VAT receipts for work carried out on new schemes - wil this mean that you will have to setup a company, make tax returns, etc? If this is the case, will this cause any problems if you want to keep your normal employment?
Anyone looked into this?

smooth operater

JohnnyBingo wrote: »

Seeing as anyone who provides a BER assessment will have to be registered with SEI (available for taxman to inspect), is anyone concerned about being able to do these as a nixer and still carry on with the day job? I'm sure developers will want VAT receipts for work carried out on new schemes - wil this mean that you will have to setup a company, make tax returns, etc? If this is the case, will this cause any problems if you want to keep your normal employment?
Anyone looked into this?

That is the case indeed......It will obviously revolve around your current job which could be difficult if you are making regular site visits....otherwise, you can keep up your other employment while self employed aswel

muffler

JohnnyBingo wrote: »

Seeing as anyone who provides a BER assessment will have to be registered with SEI (available for taxman to inspect), is anyone concerned about being able to do these as a nixer and still carry on with the day job? I'm sure developers will want VAT receipts for work carried out on new schemes - wil this mean that you will have to setup a company, make tax returns, etc? If this is the case, will this cause any problems if you want to keep your normal employment?
Anyone looked into this?

If you are working full time for a firm and doing these as nixers then VAT will not normally be an issue. You will however have to make tax returns on the earned income.

There was (not sure if its still the same) a provision some time ago that if you did work for someone with a VAT number then you were expected to charge the VAT, even though you were not registered yourself, and the make the appropriate returns at the end of the year.

Each and every registered assessor should engage an accountant or someone who cooks sorry does the books to look after that end of things.

smooth operater

But you cant issue the labels unless you have a vat number so SEI can charge you, therefore you will have to register a business

JohnnyBingo

smooth operater wrote: »

But you cant issue the labels unless you have a vat number so SEI can charge you, therefore you will have to register a business

I thought you just had to set up a direct debit with SEI - wasnt aware that you had to have a VAT number too.

muffler

This could be an interesting point. There is a threshold of €27,000 (Im open to correction on the figure) and if your turnover P/A is less than that then you do not register for VAT. So SEI cant make you register. In fact no body other than the revenue commissioners can make you register unless your turnover exceeds the threshold.

It would be interesting to have an input from an accountant on this - in fact I might know someone here who can advise.

topcatcbr

muffler wrote: »

This could be an interesting point. There is a threshold of €27,000 (Im open to correction on the figure) and if your turnover P/A is less than that then you do not register for VAT. So SEI cant make you register. In fact no body other than the revenue commissioners can make you register unless your turnover exceeds the threshold.

It would be interesting to have an input from an accountant on this - in fact I might know someone here who can advise.

Finance Act 2006 - VAT registration thresholds

The VAT registration thresholds for small businesses were increased from €25,500 to €27,500 in the case of services and from €51,000 to €55,000 in the case of goods – effective from 1 May 2006.

I hope this helps

Chimpster

I dont honestly think this work can be done as a nixer unless your work is closely related to the building industry. An amount of time will be spent on the phone to suppliers, clients etc... ok you will build up a library of material in time but doing a BER is not a walk in the park. In fact the quotes being bandied about of people doing BERs for €250 is laughable. Sit down meet a client and do a BER 'properly' from start to finish and see how long it takes.

This work will suit Engineers, Architects, QS's or else a viable business offering related services like air tightness, sound proofing etc.

Thats my take on it.

JohnnyBingo

topcatcbr wrote: »

Finance Act 2006 - VAT registration thresholds

The VAT registration thresholds for small businesses were increased from €25,500 to €27,500 in the case of services and from €51,000 to €55,000 in the case of goods – effective from 1 May 2006.

I hope this helps

Topcat,
Can I ask you (assuming that you have issued some BER certs) if you know who advised the client of his legal obligation to get one? Did they know themselves or was it their estate agent / solicitor who advised them?

topcatcbr

Chimpster wrote: »

I dont honestly think this work can be done as a nixer unless your work is closely related to the building industry. An amount of time will be spent on the phone to suppliers, clients etc... ok you will build up a library of material in time but doing a BER is not a walk in the park. In fact the quotes being bandied about of people doing BERs for €250 is laughable. Sit down meet a client and do a BER 'properly' from start to finish and see how long it takes.

This work will suit Engineers, Architects, QS's or else a viable business offering related services like air tightness, sound proofing etc.

Thats my take on it.

I agree when this was first introduced it was aimed at building professional who are already used to this type of work. However the course providers got greedy and would train just about anyone now.
The course i was on last year had an electronic engineer on it. When i asked him how much he knew about building work he said nothing. He wanted to change from what he was doing and get into construction. I dont think he was a suitable candidate.