DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

Mellor

sinnerboy wrote: »

Estimated requirement for no of BER assessors in Ireland -- 2000
no already qualified 800
no registered 300
no competent ???

I wonder

sinnerboy

ardara1 wrote: »

Did u learn anything last nite Sinner?

Presentation on air tightness was good - lots of photos stressing attention to details .

I hope our construction colleagues can step up to the mark . Big site culture changes are required .

For architects / engineers /surveyors / self builders - get to know a good air tester - now .

250882

Just at a seminar last night by LAyDEX about air tightness testing and using the correct membranes and tapes in the correct locations, it was good but it just highlighted something for me.

Part L 2007 recomends an air change rate per hour of 4. Where then does the current part F stand with regard to ventilation which part takes preference. It kind of leaves it open to heat recovery units only doesnt it.

I remember proposing probably one of the first heat recovery ventilation systems in Roscommon years ago, it was a sealed timber frame house imported from sweden and the local authority & DOE went ballistic when they couldnt find vents in the external walls. They reckoned that if the electricity was off for a couple of days then the occupants of the house would suffocate.

Mellor

250882 wrote: »

Part L 2007 recomends an air change rate per hour of 4. Where then does the current part F stand with regard to ventilation which part takes preference. It kind of leaves it open to heat recovery units only doesnt it.

I would imagine that Part L takes preference, as it is the newer. Its guidence remember. We were told that part F was to change soon.

As for where part F stands. It only lists ope sizes for background ventilation. With the exception of mechanical ventilation, WCs are asked to have 3 airchanges per hour.
For other rooms it is given as litres/sec. Kitchens being 60 litres/sec. For reference, a 30m2 kitchen with a 2.4m ceiling working at 60litres per second results in 3 airchanges per hour. A 22.5 m2 kitchen operates at 4 airchanges.

topcatcbr

Got my fetac cert yesterday. Should i bother to register now or wait till next year.

bakerbhoy

Can someone clear a small bit of confusion for me.I am building by direct labour, overseen by arch/engineer.
Do i have to have a ber cert done before occupancy of my home or only if for some reason i was to sell in the future.

topcatcbr

bakerbhoy wrote: »

Can someone clear a small bit of confusion for me.I am building by direct labour, overseen by arch/engineer.
Do i have to have a ber cert done before occupancy of my home or only if for some reason i was to sell in the future.

Legally before first occupancy is whats required. However you should get it done as soon as possible prefferably before the build begins as you can make changes to specification easier at this stage resulting in a better energy rating.

ardara1

topcatcbr wrote: »

Legally before first occupancy is whats required. However you should get it done as soon as possible prefferably before the build begins as you can make changes to specification easier at this stage resulting in a better energy rating.

Depends when you got planning permission.

topcatcbr

ardara1 wrote: »

Depends when you got planning permission.

If you got permission before 1st jan 07 you will not require one. unless you sel/rent/lease/ the property after 1st jan 09. I think you should still get it done as early as possible it will save you money later.

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

If you got permission before 1st jan 07 you will not require one. unless you sel/rent/lease/ the property after 1st jan 09. I think you should still get it done as early as possible it will save you money later.

NO. NO. NO...... please be careful what information is supplied.

Bakerboy, you require a BER before you occupy the dwelling if, and only if, you APPLIED for planning permission after 1st January 2007.

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

NO. NO. NO...... please be careful what information is supplied.

Bakerboy, you require a BER before you occupy the dwelling if, and only if, you APPLIED for planning permission after 1st January 2007.

Sorry I was being a little too general. however i was right in what i said. If someone gets planning before 1st of jan 07 i think it is safe to assume they did not apply for planning permission after the 1st of jan 07. for the same project anyway. I have no interest in getting into a pissing contest but was concerned with the severety of the rebuke on such a minor matter.
please do not take this reply as a personal attack as it is not meant as such. I was just trying to answer a genuine query without trying to get too specific and quoting paragraphs of text from regulations and EU Directives. This has been done before.

sydthebeat

sorry, it wasn't mean as neither a rebuke nor a personal attack. It was just a correction.

All this BER stuff is still in its infancy and all i was trying to do was to keep things as clear and simple as possible..... without having to quote SI's.

although what youve said is technically correct by default, it doesnt cover those who applied before 1st jan 2007 and were granted permission after.. those persons are do not need a BER legally.

bakerbhoys query is a common question among self builders and its in everyones interest to get the information and knowledge correct at this this point.

Irishsnake

Hi All
Im a QS working for a construction company and thinking of doing the course and was wondering if i can give a ber cert for houses the company i work for are building?

Also is it difficult to get the 70% pass rate wouldnt like to get company to pay for it and time off and end up failing

cheers lads in advance for any replys

sinnerboy

Irishsnake wrote: »

Hi All
Im a QS working for a construction company and thinking of doing the course and was wondering if i can give a ber cert for houses the company i work for are building?

Also is it difficult to get the 70% pass rate wouldnt like to get company to pay for it and time off and end up failing

cheers lads in advance for any replys

no , you have to independent to issue certs . but you could crunch numbers / calcs and predict ratings at early design stage .....

course is tough going . but so is QS work .. .. be prepared to put the head down you will be fine . i think QS is amongst the ideal set of candidates for the course actually . with your handle on costings together with the BER training it would place you in a uniquely good position to make intelligent informed assements of insulation/services permutations for your company . GO FOR IT

Irishsnake

Thanks for that sinnerboy, so i take it then that estate agents cant have their own employees training and issue certs for houses their are selling for their clients either

sinnerboy

Irishsnake wrote: »

Thanks for that sinnerboy, so i take it then that estate agents cant have their own employees training and issue certs for houses their are selling for their clients either

can't see how they can irishsnake. i imagine they will have to set up arrangements with agents "in the next town" and do each other properties

BERk8

Hi there, I'm an administrator for a BER assessor in Munster, while calling estate agents in our area I came across one estate agent who told me that he was an assessor. I don't think that it can be an independent assessment if the assessor has a vested interest in achieving a good rating.

smashey

He'll still have to stand over the rating.

sinnerboy

snap

ardara1

I've been told by an ait pressure tester that an insulation company is offering FREE BER certs AND air pressure testing with their material - can THAT be independent? - Can any one verify it?

sinnerboy

Don't think so . An m+e installer did the BER course with me . He was thinking of "throwing cert in" with his installations ........

A debate arose between me and the 3 other archies on the course as to whether we would be independent enough to cert our own ( or our employers ) designs for our clients . Our course tutor joined discussion . Consensus was that , yes we could .

SEI will be lucky to have enough assessors come new year anyway . Postie will probably do them on his rounds ( sorry that is TOO cynical - even for me )

sydthebeat

Quick question.....

Im doing a BER on an 180sq m single storey dwelling.

The installation of a HRV system appears to actually increase the energy value by about 15kwh/m2/yr........ is this usual?? the assumption is that HRV systems dramatically increase the energy efficiency of a dwelling....
could there be some input im not including or have inputted incorrectly??

Mellor

Are there varibles in volved with the HRV, or air tightness

sydthebeat

No...

Ive inputted that no pressurisation test was carried out and im using default fan values....

I suspect its a result of the design and size of the dwelling.

sinnerboy

no of chimneys , flues etc ?

Or rule of thumb - air tightness factor of 5 a/c min for HRV - enter this as test result and see

sydthebeat

1 chimney, 1 open flue....
i have even tried it with no chimney and no open flues and only reduces the energy vlaue by 5 ... so still 10 kwhr/m2/yr over natural ventilation.

a figure of 5 air changes per hour is more than doubling the energy value.

DEAP recommends an input of 0.5 when no air test carried out... add this to infiltration due to openings, the defualt air change is 0.75 ac/hr

ardara1

sydthebeat wrote: »

Quick question.....

Im doing a BER on an 180sq m single storey dwelling.

The installation of a HRV system appears to actually increase the energy value by about 15kwh/m2/yr........ is this usual?? the assumption is that HRV systems dramatically increase the energy efficiency of a dwelling....
could there be some input im not including or have inputted incorrectly??

The energy used by the fan of the MVHR system uses more energy (Electric) than it recovers in your instance, it depends on volume, air tightness etc. - it doesn't always work that they are efficient - I had the same case on a BIG self build - just wouldn't work - remember you're only transfering already created heat into another area - depend n source and other area. MVHR does not generate heat.

sinnerboy

its function is not simply to recover heat but also to reduce heat losses through ventilation i.e. to "protect" the internal heated climate from the external cold climate .

interesting that DEAP seems throw up scenarios to demonstrate that it's not worth installing.....

my instinct tells my something is not right with DEAP here

sydthebeat

Thats exactly the situation....
The electrical loading turns out to be over 1kwh/yr.

My biggest dissapointment is the very small differences thrown up by air pressure test results.
No air tightness test input compared to 0.1 ac/h was practically negilable.

Its common sense to say that If a room has 1 ac/h, then no HRV has to heat that whole room once evey hour, whereas a HRV systems (at 66% efficiency) means the heating system has to heat the room every 3 hours.

If a boiler is outputting say, 20kw/hr to heat this room, doesnt it make that the 1kw/hr of electrical loading is hugely more energy efficient???
or am i missing somethign realy obvious?

ardara1

sydthebeat wrote: »

Thats exactly the situation....
The electrical loading turns out to be over 1kwh/yr.

My biggest dissapointment is the very small differences thrown up by air pressure test results.
No air tightness test input compared to 0.1 ac/h was practically negilable.

Its common sense to say that If a room has 1 ac/h, then no HRV has to heat that whole room once evey hour, whereas a HRV systems (at 66% efficiency) means the heating system has to heat the room every 3 hours.

If a boiler is outputting say, 20kw/hr to heat this room, doesnt it make that the 1kw/hr of electrical loading is hugely more energy efficient???
or am i missing somethign realy obvious?

Hi Syd - you mentioned the HRV system efficiency is 66%? - but the best performing MVHR product has an SFP of 0.94 and a heat exchanger efficiency of 77% - it should improve things.

Can you throw up yous list of outputs from the result table to let us see it?

sydthebeat

im altering inputs in order to improve efficiency.. so theres no particular manufacturers spec available, im using the default values.

i wont have the actual inputs till monday.

Mellor

I think the way you are looking at the heating and effiency is flawed.

Say two rooms, one with HRV and the other with natural wall vents.

Say each room is built to the same standard, and the natural vents result in the samr air changes per hour as the HRV (probably unlikely).

For the HRV to be worthwile, it has to recover more heat than it costs to run. This recovery is mechanical, so it doesn't affect the effiency of the HRV (which is the imput elec vrs the work done to pump the air)
As long as the HRV is recovering more heat per hour than it costs to run then it is a positive, are there vales in the DEAP for passive stack with heat recovery.

sinnerboy

disagree Mellor . I believe HRV also prevents heat loss by creating indirect contact between internal and external . It 's not only about recovering heat

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

I think the way you are looking at the heating and effiency is flawed.

Say two rooms, one with HRV and the other with natural wall vents.

Say each room is built to the same standard, and the natural vents result in the samr air changes per hour as the HRV (probably unlikely).

For the HRV to be worthwile, it has to recover more heat than it costs to run. This recovery is mechanical, so it doesn't affect the effiency of the HRV (which is the imput elec vrs the work done to pump the air)
As long as the HRV is recovering more heat per hour than it costs to run then it is a positive, are there vales in the DEAP for passive stack with heat recovery.

To take your example, and again assume a 1 ac/hr.
hour 1: room 1 takes 100% to heat, room 2 take 100% to heat
hour 2: room 1 takes 100% to heat, room two takes 33% to heat plus running energy of 1 hr.
hour 3: room 1 take 100% to heat, room 2 take 33% to heat plus running energy of 1 hr

and so on, and so on..... (pro rata to the whole dwelling)
therefore if running energy of HRV is less than 66% running energy of heating system, its efficient... i would argue that a HRV system is less than 5% running energy of a heating system (possible a lot better as well.. )

but DEAP doesnt reflect these efficiencies for some reason.

plus you have to remember that in these examples we've assumed a similar air infiltration rate, whereas in reality there should be a huge difference if you are installing a HRV system. The air change rate is the same, remember.

smashey

Hey Syd,

It's Saturday.

Take the day off and relax.

sydthebeat

smashey wrote: »

Hey Syd,

It's Saturday.

Take the day off and relax.

the wales Italy game is boring the pants off me....

you wont hear from me from 5.00 onwards

Mellor

I have a few quid on to keep it interesting, if ireland win both halves i'm laughing.

As for the HRV above, thats good way to describe it,
I was trying to point out that electrical effiency of the unit doesn't actually matter as its indirect.

muffler

Mellor wrote: »

I have a few quid on to keep it interesting, if ireland win both halves i'm laughing.

You read the small print on the contract when you became a mod didnt you. Just in case you missed it said that all winnings must be shared equally between the forum mods

gsxr1

I have been thinking of studying for this exam.

I like my job but don't intend to be swinging a hammer till im sixty.

Would becoming a BER assessor be a worth while career change financial.

Or would it really be a nixer

I have a feeling there will be a lot more tradesmen trying for this now as the work situation has tightened up lately.

The home bond seminar is what caught my interest in it, While my work mates where falling asleep listening I was wide awake and very interested in the subject.

sydthebeat

gsxr1 wrote: »

I have been thinking of studying for this exam.

I like my job but don't intend to be swinging a hammer till im sixty.

Would becoming a BER assessor be a worth while career change financial.

Or would it really be a nixer

I have a feeling there will be a lot more tradesmen trying for this now as the work situation has tightened up lately.

The home bond seminar is what caught my interest in it, While my work mates where falling asleep listening I was wide awake and very interested in the subject.

it wouldnt be a nixer as you would/should have to have PI insurance behind you.

BER assessments will mostly be done by the inspecting / certifying engineer / architect on new houses from July onwards.
The market you could possibly aim at would be the 'existing housing stock' market at point of sale or rent.

the costs you are talking about covering are €2000 plus for the course, €1000 registering fee, €25 for each BER applied....

Mellor

sinnerboy wrote: »

disagree Mellor . I believe HRV also prevents heat loss by creating indirect contact between internal and external . It 's not only about recovering heat

Missed that comment, I'd consider that prevention of heat loss as an extension of the heat recovery function. In fact, everything it does could be considered prevention (or reduction more correctly) of heat loss.

ircoha

sydthebeat wrote: »

it wouldnt be a nixer as you would/should have to have PI insurance behind you.

BER assessments will mostly be done by the inspecting / certifying engineer / architect on new houses from July onwards.
The market you could possibly aim at would be the 'existing housing stock' market at point of sale or rent.

the costs you are talking about covering are €2000 plus for the course, €1000 registering fee, €25 for each BER applied....

plus AFAIK an annual fee of 500 euro plus vat to SEI

sinnerboy

Mellor wrote: »

Missed that comment, I'd consider that prevention of heat loss as an extension of the heat recovery function. In fact, everything it does could be considered prevention (or reduction more correctly) of heat loss.

I Think we are agreeing Mellor ...

to clarify HRV has 2 effects - direct and indirect

1. Direct - HRV recovers heat from heated internal air and

2. indirect - because to used HRV properly , open fire , trickle vents and wall vents are omitted , they ( the open fire , trickle vents and wall vents ) will not be present to cool that internal air

BER _ QS

Hi. i'm a QS working for a residential developer and have recently received my FETAC cert to allow me to register with SEI as a registered BER assessor but to be honest don't think i'll bother just yet and hlold onto my €1,000 for another while as there doesn't seem to be much of an uptake on the BER assessments yet.

As i say i work for a residential development company and we have had BER assessments carried out on the site we are working on currently although is was not required as planning permission had been granted prior to the requirement dates, however we got it done as we thought it might come in useful as a marketing tool to be used in the selling of the houses but absolutely no-one has asked for a BER cert yet and the estate agent selling the houses on behalf of my employer looks at you as if you have 2 heads when mentioning a BER cert.

sinnerboy

you are in very good position to use your training well . even if you NEVER issue a cert yourself

point of learning is not to simply issue the cert

you can make very informed decisions now on specification choices for your company

anyway you CANT issue certs as an employee of a company where that company is selling the product - SI 666 2006 will prohibit this - assessors have to be independent

BER _ QS

Hi, yeah I'm aware that as an employee i cannot issue certs for houses constructed by my employer and i've already had a similar discussion with our architect who is also in the process of becoming a BER assessor and who thinks that he'll be able to issue certs for schemes he has designed but he doesn't seem to believe me that he cannot. i think he thought i was trying to mislead him so i'm afraid he's going to have to find out for himself elsewhere.

The resaon i undertook the course was partly for it being advantageous to have knowledge and understanding of the process should i continue to work for a housebuilder aswell as having an add-on service i could provide should i opt to go work for myself offering QS's services.

At this stage i'm starting to think i might never actually issue a cert but i'm still glad i did the course as i found it extremely informative and definitley worth have an understanding of it and i must admit with the measurement of volumes and areas etc i think it ideally suited for someone with a QS background.

sinnerboy

BER _ QS wrote: »

Hi, yeah I'm aware that as an employee i cannot issue certs for houses constructed by my employer and i've already had a similar discussion with our architect who is also in the process of becoming a BER assessor and who thinks that he'll be able to issue certs for schemes he has designed but he doesn't seem to believe me that he cannot. .

During the course I attended this discussion arose with me + 3 other archies . , together with the course tutor . consensus was that as the designer ( who admittedly receives a fee ) you are not in the same position as a vendor . And so an architect can issue a BER cert on his/her own design .

BER _ QS wrote: »

with the measurement of volumes and areas etc i think it ideally suited for someone with a QS background.

Agree with that , you would have an inherent strength there . But also with your handle on costs you are in a great position to manipulate specifications ( building fabric + m+e installations )

I would go so far as to say that of all the building professions , I think QS + BER go together really well .

( any estate agents on your course ? )

sydthebeat

BER _ QS wrote: »

Hi, yeah I'm aware that as an employee i cannot issue certs for houses constructed by my employer and i've already had a similar discussion with our architect who is also in the process of becoming a BER assessor and who thinks that he'll be able to issue certs for schemes he has designed but he doesn't seem to believe me that he cannot. i think he thought i was trying to mislead him so i'm afraid he's going to have to find out for himself elsewhere.

The resaon i undertook the course was partly for it being advantageous to have knowledge and understanding of the process should i continue to work for a housebuilder aswell as having an add-on service i could provide should i opt to go work for myself offering QS's services.

At this stage i'm starting to think i might never actually issue a cert but i'm still glad i did the course as i found it extremely informative and definitley worth have an understanding of it and i must admit with the measurement of volumes and areas etc i think it ideally suited for someone with a QS background.

an architect does not have any material financial interest in the outcome of teh assessment and therefore can carry out assessments on schemes/ dwellings they have designed, sepcified and supervised themselves.

you, on the other hand, have a direct material financial interest in the outcome if you are an employee of the firm that gains financially from a favourable outcome... therefore if you do want to do BERs on your companies dwellings you need to declare it to teh SEI... its unlikely that they would accept it though.

read this:
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1337&docID=1254
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1157&docID=-1

BER _ QS

oops. obviously i don't know everything afterall lol. thanks for setting me straight.

no sinnerboy, don't think there was any estate agents on course. a few QS's, a couple of M & E services guys, a couple of Architects and a good few non construction related guys who were in it to make their first million. also a few people from solar energy type companies.

sinnerboy

BER _ QS wrote: »

non construction related guys who were in it to make their first million.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D , wiping tears from my eyes ....