Prostitution

DadaKopf · 11-05-2006 01:10PM

Global freedom of movement of labour could be written into law at a single meeting of the UN.

No it couldn't. First a convention is signed. Then each and every signatory has to ratify it through parliament, individually. This is an extremely difficult political process and can take decades, if it happens at all. Ironically, asylum seeker and immigrant organisations and researchers don't actually advocate total liberalisation of human migration flows.

UN member states have ratified the right to leave a country, but the right to freely enter one isn't a right unless it's promulgated by the state. To date, freedom of movement of peoples is way more regulated than the free movement of capital.

But as Wicknight says, trafficking, forced prostutition, sex slavery, child abuse is a problem which must be tackled now.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-05-2006 09:01PM

Simu any chance you just have issues with being wrong? It's really not that big a deal but it seems people on boards just find it difficult dealing with being seen to have overlooked something. You can only really catch them out when they start with ludicrous irrelevent mammy stories.

simu wrote:

So, why not stamp down on it properly instead of the usual "it'll always be with us, oldest profession" guff?

They've been trying for decades and failing consistantly. I don't trust them to make things better anytime soon. Why not try an alternative?

Because it'll be normalised to a degree (as in lots of guys will get the idea it's ok to do it but not ok enough to tell mammy about it or have mammy work as one all the same) and there will always be a supply of poor people from here or abroad to provide the workforce (unless we see some world-wide economic miracle but don't hold your breath).

This is first class. First of all you haven't given credible reasoning as to why men shouldn't get the idea it's ok. Then you bring mammy into it. I HONESTLY don't recall talking to my mum about any sort of sex I've ever had. I don't think I'm the only one who hasn't mentioned boning anyone to one's mother. -

If you smoke dope & you knew your mum had a problem with it would you stop doing it? Or hypothetically if she had issues with alchohol would you stop drinking alchohol, or having sex?(assumung you do those sort of things of course.)

Oh and then the poor people send the money home or keep it themselves & they're no longer poor people. It's like charity that doesn't piss you off.

So, the poor and undereducated will have the option of becoming prostitues as well as more traditional jobs such as cleaning and all - way hay for them (sarcastic).

No one says they have to do it. We're trying to legalise prostitution not save the fuc*king world

Hope you dont see this as a personal attack, just one on your views expressedin this thread.

Sleepy · 11-05-2006 09:18PM

Wicknight wrote:

Because its not solving the problem, its assuming the problem will go away if the economy improves.

It certainly might, but improving the economies of all Eastern European countries would take decades. It does nothing for the problem as it stands at the moment.

You're missing the point Wicknight. My advocation of freedom of labour movement is not about the fact that over time this would be good for developing economies (and arguably, in the longer run, good for everyone). It's about the fact that if the girls who are being trafficked are only in this position because they can't legally move to another country and find work without visas which aren't exactly given in great abundance. If anyone in any country could move to any other, the traffickers would lose their ability to prey on the vulnerable women of these countries.

I accept that this isn't exactly something that can be done over-night (my earlier comment was one that the decision could be made in a single meeting, not that it could be automatically implemented at the end of that meeting). Like I said, it's the only thing that I can see that will stop the problem of human slavery as it's the only one that tackles the inherrant inequalities that allow one person to exploit another.

I've yet to see an alternate solution suggested by anyone in this thread but I'd be very interested if anyone has one. So far all we've seen are means of throwing the problem onto others' doorsteps or forcing it further underground where the victims will no doubt suffer more.

simu · 11-05-2006 11:04PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

They've been trying for decades and failing consistantly. I don't trust them to make things better anytime soon. Why not try an alternative?

They haven't really - the problem is ignored for the most part in Ireland because it affects mostly poor and uninfluential people and when there are crack-downs, the prostitutes bear the brunt of it rather than the clients and pimps! Why not try the Swedish alternative - seems better to me. Legalising prostitution won't suddenly solve all the problems associated with it.

This is first class. First of all you haven't given credible reasoning as to why men shouldn't get the idea it's ok. Then you bring mammy into it. I HONESTLY don't recall talking to my mum about any sort of sex I've ever had. I don't think I'm the only one who hasn't mentioned boning anyone to one's mother. -

If you smoke dope & you knew your mum had a problem with it would you stop doing it? Or hypothetically if she had issues with alchohol would you stop drinking alchohol, or having sex?(assumung you do those sort of things of course.)

Dude, do not take everything so literally! My point is that there is huge social hypocrisy and double-standards surrounding the area of prostitution and legalising it won't suddenly magic them away.

Oh and then the poor people send the money home or keep it themselves & they're no longer poor people. It's like charity that doesn't piss you off.

?

No one says they have to do it. We're trying to legalise prostitution not save the fuc*king world

No - we're making a decision that will affect the lives of many people living in this society and as with all such decisions, you have to consider the outcomes. Would it make the country a better place to live in? I'm not convinced at all that it would.

Simu any chance you just have issues with being wrong?

I don't think I'm wrong! :-p

Sleepy · 12-05-2006 12:31AM

simu wrote:

Why not try the Swedish alternative - seems better to me.

Because it's sexist and it would punish people who aren't doing any harm to another human being.

simu · 12-05-2006 12:38AM

Sleepy wrote:

Because it's sexist and it would punish people who aren't doing any harm to another human being.

Well, without the sexism. Although, it is still mostly women who get screwed over with prostitution...

Sleepy · 13-05-2006 11:33AM

So you'd be happy to lock up people who haven't done anything wrong, giving them the same sentences as people who've raped or assaulted women?

There's no justice in that law.

DOLEMAN · 13-05-2006 09:37PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

[Insert Users Name Here] any chance you just have issues with being wrong? It's really not that big a deal but it seems people on boards just find it difficult dealing with being seen to have overlooked something.

Comment of the year!

simu · 16-05-2006 03:14PM

Sleepy wrote:

So you'd be happy to lock up people who haven't done anything wrong, giving them the same sentences as people who've raped or assaulted women?

There's no justice in that law.

Well, if it was declared as a crime, why not? As for sentencing - it would be a different offense from rape and assault so probably different sentencing lengths.

Sleepy · 16-05-2006 03:34PM

Ì just can't agree with locking someone up for something that causes no harm to anyone. I'd have the same objection to many of our current laws e.g. arresting people with drug problems rather than treating them.

simu · 16-05-2006 04:58PM

Sleepy wrote:

Ì just can't agree with locking someone up for something that causes no harm to anyone. I'd have the same objection to many of our current laws e.g. arresting people with drug problems rather than treating them.

Well, it's not like I've drawn out a bill on it in my spare time! Fining would probably do!

Sleepy · 16-05-2006 05:18PM

So fining would be enough for something that constituted as violence towards another human being?

Somehow I don't think that would have the desired effect of stamping out prostitution. Isn't a fine for this type of activity effectively what currently exists in our state?

simu · 16-05-2006 09:44PM

Sleepy wrote:

So fining would be enough for something that constituted as violence towards another human being?

Somehow I don't think that would have the desired effect of stamping out prostitution. Isn't a fine for this type of activity effectively what currently exists in our state?

Afaik, clients are rarely if ever charged with anything.

DOLEMAN · 17-05-2006 01:19AM

I believe people should go to prison if they pay/are paid for sex because everyone should be forced to follow my own moral and religious beliefs.

...

Zombrex · 17-05-2006 09:19AM

Sleepy wrote:

Like I said, it's the only thing that I can see that will stop the problem of human slavery as it's the only one that tackles the inherrant inequalities that allow one person to exploit another.

I've yet to see an alternate solution suggested by anyone in this thread but I'd be very interested if anyone has one. So far all we've seen are means of throwing the problem onto others' doorsteps or forcing it further underground where the victims will no doubt suffer more.

You tackle human slavery and trafficing by getting tough on the people who fund the industry, ie the end client.

I think a system like they have in Sweden would work, though the justification that prostitution is volience against women is flawed, as you point out. It shouldn't be just with regard to women, children and men should also be included. And the justification shouldn't be that it is violence against someone, more that it is facilitating the explotation of people. The john probably has no idea if the prostitute is a willing participant or if they are a sex slave.

You remove the market you remove problem.

And before someone says "Well you are locking people up who are only having sex" that is missing the point.

Lots of laws are designed to prevent crimes that in general that might not actually be happening in every instant.

Even if you are a prefectly respectable law abiding citizen of the state, never been in trouble with the law and never will be in trouble with the law, you still cannot own a hand gun. The logic is that it is better that the small number of people who would cause danger with a hand gun are not allowed own one, at the expense of the vast majority that would not cause danger. You treat all cases of illegal gun owner ship as a crime, even if the person posed no direct threat to anyone, and probably never would pose a direct threat to someone.

Same with something like speeding. The law doesn't say "You can speed so long as you are careful and don't crash". The laws against speeding are designed to prevent the minority of times a driver will lose control and crash, at the expense of the vast majority of times a driver will break the speed limit and be perfectly fine.

Same logic here. Even if the majority of prostitution is perfectly above board, you cannot know that for each individul case so it is better to treat all cases as a crime, and crack down on all funding of prostitution. A wide net catches the most fish.

Shellie13 · 18-05-2006 05:20PM

DOLEMAN wrote:

How? That doesn't make sense. If sex is not degrading, how is selling it degrading?

It shocks me to see someone can fail to see a clear distinction here....
sex is great...BUT it shouldn't be "sold"...

You say ALL women who are involved in prostitution want to be, are only after the money, i strongly disagree.
If nothing else...would they risk the STD's?!
perhaps its true that some "highclass escorts" follow this principal THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY!!!
Many girls (and guys) fall on such desprate situations as drugg dependancy, extrem poverty, trafficing etc and simply see no other option!
Another thing i see reoccuring here is illegal immagrents with no other source of cash, or without the knowledge of how to claim their intitlements.

it was mentioned earlier about girls accepting that men do it...
Personally im very liberal about most things but if i EVER discoverd a guy i was involved with had used a protitute in the past it would end on the spot!

Shellie13 · 18-05-2006 05:32PM

Then you bring mammy into it. I HONESTLY don't recall talking to my mum about any sort of sex I've ever had. I don't think I'm the only one who hasn't mentioned boning anyone to one's mother. -

If you smoke dope & you knew your mum had a problem with it would you stop doing it?

The point here isn't nessicarily mammy herself...its that many people separate people into different classes and hence signify them as lesser beings...

For instantacnce...how many private schoolgirls who study medicine in the college of surgeons and live in blackrock will end up selling their bodies?!
How many immigint girls living in disadvantaged ares without a full education will?!
You see the point?!

its ok as long as its not someone whos you see a a person...

Would any of you guys who condone it be happy with an ex-prostitute for a girlfriend?!
Or be happy at the thought of some old guy paying yur little sister to spread her legs?!

Theses girls are real people too who once were (and cud be still) part of families, and with people who cared about them!!!

DOLEMAN · 19-05-2006 09:40PM

Shellie13 wrote:

It shocks me to see someone can fail to see a clear distinction here....
sex is great...BUT it shouldn't be "sold"...

Why not?

Why should people, who have absolutely nothing to do with you, be forced to follow your own moral views?

What has other people agreeing to sell/pay for sex have to do with you?

The Taliban find all kinds of things morally wrong. Should we follow their moral view point also?

Shellie13 wrote:

You say ALL women who are involved in prostitution want to be, are only after the money, i strongly disagree.

I am sure there are some problem cases, but in the vast majority of cases (in Ireland anyway), the women are choosing to be a prostitute.

I'm not sure legalising it would save the small percentage of women being used as slaves, but *normally* when you legalise things the criminal aspect disappears.

Shellie13 wrote:

If nothing else...would they risk the STD's?!

They use condoms. Dublin is absolutely crawling with chlamydia. It's not the prostitutes who are spreading it...

Shellie13 wrote:

Many girls (and guys) fall on such desprate situations as drugg dependancy, extrem poverty, trafficing etc and simply see no other option!

Sure. This doesn't make prostitution wrong though. It simply means prostitution is a way to make lots of money very quickly.

Shellie13 wrote:

Another thing i see reoccuring here is illegal immagrents with no other source of cash, or without the knowledge of how to claim their intitlements.

Yes, perhaps. But they are choosing to be a prostitute.

Shellie13 wrote:

Personally im very liberal about most things but if i EVER discoverd a guy i was involved with had used a protitute in the past it would end on the spot!

So it's OK to go out on a Saturday night, **** some random girl, possibly without a condom. But paying for sex is wrong. I don't understand your logic.

"Moral" reasons is not a valid excuse for a law.

simu · 19-05-2006 10:48PM

DOLEMAN wrote:

Why not?

Why should people, who have absolutely nothing to do with you, be forced to follow your own moral views?

What has other people agreeing to sell/pay for sex have to do with you?

The Taliban find all kinds of things morally wrong. Should we follow their moral view point also?

Well, I don't see the point of getting into morals because it's all too subjective but you'll notice that pretty much every society has rules that its members are expected to follow. It's cool to prevent people from doing everything they possibly could if the electorate decides it's for the overall good of society imho (and with the caveat that this does not infringe on people's basic human rights). So, if we find that prostitution leads to vulnerable people getting stuck in miserable poverty traps, and that this isn't a good thing to be happening, why not crack down on it? I mean, from the way you talk, you'd think there were no laws in Ireland at all!

I am sure there are some problem cases, but in the vast majority of cases (in Ireland anyway), the women are choosing to be a prostitute.

Well, that doesn't tie in with what I've heard of the experiences of prostitutes in Ireland as reported in the media and so on. Most seem to be forced into it by abusive partners or drug addiction and so on. If there are so many happy prostitutes out there, why do we never hear it? Is it some grand conspiracy? I'm not denying that it's possible that there are some who are ok with working as prostitutes but I'm very doubtful that most prostitutes are.

So it's OK to go out on a Saturday night, **** some random girl, possibly without a condom. But paying for sex is wrong. I don't understand your logic.

Uh, maybe it's all the same to you and the only difference is that you have a few extra quid in your wallet next day if you had sex with a non-prostitute but from a girl's pov, going out and scoring with some guy you fancy in a nightclub (whether this is driven by drink or not) is a fundamentally different experience to going out and having sex with guys to keep a roof over your head. Maybe they're all just random bodies to you but the people you have sex with have minds too, ya know!

nesf · 19-05-2006 11:12PM

simu wrote:

is a fundamentally different experience to going out and having sex with guys to keep a roof over your head.

The topic here is prostitution, not marriage.

Tar.Aldarion · 20-05-2006 12:03AM

How do you think she kept her room next to mine in castlelawn heights?

nesf · 20-05-2006 12:16AM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

How do you think she kept her room next to mine in castlelawn heights?

Ah but Spice of Life is a very attractive young lady so I couldn't have any qualms with what was going on.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-05-2006 01:47PM

Shellie13 wrote:

It shocks me to see someone can fail to see a clear distinction here....
sex is great...BUT it shouldn't be "sold"...

I know DOLEMAN asked but I'd like a WHY here too.

You say ALL women who are involved in prostitution want to be, are only after the money, i strongly disagree.

Why?

If nothing else...would they risk the STD's?!

Plain stupidity, see DOLEMAN's post.

perhaps its true that some "highclass escorts" follow this principal THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY!!!
Many girls (and guys) fall on such desprate situations as drugg dependancy, extrem poverty, trafficing etc and simply see no other option!
Another thing i see reoccuring here is illegal immagrents with no other source of cash, or without the knowledge of how to claim their intitlements.

Don't you think legalisation would help stamping these stereotypes out? Stringfellows might offer a health service to employees

it was mentioned earlier about girls accepting that men do it...
Personally im very liberal about most things but if i EVER discoverd a guy i was involved with had used a protitute in the past it would end on the spot!

Assuming you weren't together at the time why?

What if he'd slept with 200 girls for free during college?

Could you name some things you actually are liberal about? You're either lying about being liberal or you have a sex hang up.

Sleepy · 22-05-2006 08:44AM

simu wrote:

Well, I don't see the point of getting into morals because it's all too subjective but you'll notice that pretty much every society has rules that its members are expected to follow. It's cool to prevent people from doing everything they possibly could if the electorate decides it's for the overall good of society imho (and with the caveat that this does not infringe on people's basic human rights).

Is it not the prostitute's right to determine what she does with her body?

So, if we find that prostitution leads to vulnerable people getting stuck in miserable poverty traps, and that this isn't a good thing to be happening, why not crack down on it? I mean, from the way you talk, you'd think there were no laws in Ireland at all!

Where do we find that prostitution leads to "miserable poverty traps"? One would imagine that prostitution would be a means of escaping poverty rather than something that would keep one poor. Like I said, a little research on-line will show you that many of these girls own property portfolios etc. Most only work in the industry for a few years.

Well, that doesn't tie in with what I've heard of the experiences of prostitutes in Ireland as reported in the media and so on.

Come on, Simu, you know better than to believe the media on this topic. The only papers that have given any coverage to the subject of prostitution in Ireland have been the tabloid rags. Hardly a reliable source.

Most seem to be forced into it by abusive partners or drug addiction and so on. If there are so many happy prostitutes out there, why do we never hear it? Is it some grand conspiracy? I'm not denying that it's possible that there are some who are ok with working as prostitutes but I'm very doubtful that most prostitutes are.

I'd imagine we don't hear much about the happy prostitutes because of the social stigma held about their profession. Because of the likes of Shellie13, Metrovelvet and some of the other posters in this thread who refuse to understand that their moral standpoint isn't the only valid one. The girl's working happily away in the business will also be the quiet ones, they're not likely to go shouting from the rooftops about how much they love their jobs, the money they make etc. because to all intents and purposes their jobs are illegal and given society's reaction to it, discretion is also an important factor.

Uh, maybe it's all the same to you and the only difference is that you have a few extra quid in your wallet next day if you had sex with a non-prostitute but from a girl's pov, going out and scoring with some guy you fancy in a nightclub (whether this is driven by drink or not) is a fundamentally different experience to going out and having sex with guys to keep a roof over your head. Maybe they're all just random bodies to you but the people you have sex with have minds too, ya know!

Prostitutes have minds too. In fact, I've often heard of lonely men hiring them purely for conversation and company. Not much of a story there for the Sunday World though, is there?

simu · 22-05-2006 03:57PM

Sleepy wrote:

Come on, Simu, you know better than to believe the media on this topic. The only papers that have given any coverage to the subject of prostitution in Ireland have been the tabloid rags. Hardly a reliable source.

Eh, I don't read tabloids. This stuff has been covered by the more reliable media too.

Where do we find that prostitution leads to "miserable poverty traps"? One would imagine that prostitution would be a means of escaping poverty rather than something that would keep one poor. Like I said, a little research on-line will show you that many of these girls own property portfolios etc. Most only work in the industry for a few years.

Links? I don't see a bank giving me a mortgage if I declare I'm a prostitute tbh.

I'd imagine we don't hear much about the happy prostitutes because of the social stigma held about their profession. Because of the likes of Shellie13, Metrovelvet and some of the other posters in this thread who refuse to understand that their moral standpoint isn't the only valid one. The girl's working happily away in the business will also be the quiet ones, they're not likely to go shouting from the rooftops about how much they love their jobs, the money they make etc. because to all intents and purposes their jobs are illegal and given society's reaction to it, discretion is also an important factor.

That's really taking your word for it, though.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-05-2006 10:27PM

simu wrote:

Links? I don't see a bank giving me a mortgage if I declare I'm a prostitute tbh.

That's really taking your word for it, though.

. . . o contrairre

The beauty of it is you could have a college degree high paid 9-5 AND be a prostitute. Ironic you said mortgage be nice way of building up a deposit:rolleyes:

simu · 24-05-2006 10:33PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

. . . o contrairre

The beauty of it is you could have a college degree high paid 9-5 AND be a prostitute. Ironic you said mortgage be nice way of building up a deposit:rolleyes:

Why bother tbh?

Oh and I'm sure that's sooo typical of Irish prostitutes. :rolleyes: bakkacha!

elivsvonchiaing · 24-05-2006 11:49PM

My problem with prositution is that it isn't legal - therefore not regulated and because of this; vast earnings are going into the black economy and escaping the tax-net.

If the profession were legalised and regulated - the tax revenue would easily pay for the extra gardaí to police it (prostitutes make a lot more than me and most of the rest of the population).

This could only work if the gardaí had new powers under new laws - i.e. suspicion of unlicenced brothel activity/ability to raid at random/v quickly obtain court order to raid. No-one will go there if they want to keep their life nice 'n cozy - as the onus would have to be on the client to check prostitutes credentials before hire - or also face criminal prosecution.

The morality of this is all nonsense - it is the oldest profession and will always go on. Being a man I have to say the morality question should be narrowed down to "do you tell your soulmate the truth that you have been with a prostitute?" I think the answer is yes.

The reality is many men will succumb at some point of desperation and do it once - weekly/daily/whatever they can afford - but this will eventually end - when our species as we know it is terminated or ascends (don't hold your breath girls :rolleyes: )

I know many guys who have been with prostitutes; I don't know a single woman who has ever hired a rent-boy. The reality is this is the oldest profession and will never catch-up with farming as the oldest. It is not going to go out of fashion - it is male sexual human nature that drives this.

Dublin was "Strumpet City" and the legion of mary (I think) cleaned that up as these women were in worse circumstances than trafficked women these days.

I think the biggest objection to legalisation is probably from the older generation of Christians that don't want to believe their kids didn't inherit the same beliefs/values that they did.

If prostitution was legalised and regulated with appropriate changes to the law/powers of Gardaí this could work. This would have be well thought out allowing for large influx of tourists + illegal prostitutes etc. E.g. the world cup situation mentioned in previous posts.

Maybe if this were legalised and taxed we could all get VAT back down to 20% or something. Maybe not - I still think legalisation would pay for itself; I'm not going to bother to google for something to back this up as the solution that would be arrived at would be unique to this state I suspect.

Any talk of changes in law/gardaí powers evoke the spectre of the "state of emergency" powers they had for 40 years too long. A long-drawn out series of referendums/public education campaigns would probably be needed for law changes in the sex industry:

Ultimately this is the only solution to "human-traffic" prostitution. There is no other "good" solution to this problem.

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

Legalisation doest do anything, it just allows criminal gangs to parade their slaves out on the streets.

See above...

Bottle_of_Smoke · 25-05-2006 07:48PM

simu wrote:

Why bother tbh?

Oh and I'm sure that's sooo typical of Irish prostitutes. :rolleyes: bakkacha!

usually people buy a property

simu · 26-05-2006 12:16AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

usually people buy a property

Eh, no. I meant why would you bother becoming a prostitute if you already have a good job? Too riskey.

Prostitution

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