Multiculturism?

Frank Grimes · 04-07-2005 12:39pm

Wibbs wrote:

The laws in Islam concerning hijab(burqhas) as an example are pretty much set in stone.

There's nothing about burqhas in Islamic law, they're a cultural thing in certain countries. The statement in the Quran is regarding modesty for women is generally interpreted as headscarf, clothes that aren't tight etc. Why do you associate what someone wears with "modernisation" anyway, do you not think that maybe a lot of Muslim women want to dress that way?

We as a state have to nip this kind of theological fascism in the bud before it gets a foothold.

What makes either of you think it was Muslims that did that, besides references to something that happened in France?

The pictures on the cola site with smiling girls covered from head to foot holding cans is a little dubious to say the least

What's dubious about that exactly?

Wibbs · 04-07-2005 2:31pm

Frank Grimes wrote:

There's nothing about burqhas in Islamic law, they're a cultural thing in certain countries. The statement in the Quran is regarding modesty for women is generally interpreted as headscarf, clothes that aren't tight etc.

Really? Actually there are more than one statements about what we would refer to as burqhas in Islamic law, both in the Quran and the haddith. It's certainly present in sharia law. Here's just one passage that refutes your theory. May I suggest some further reading on this, rather than trot out the same PC line that PHB was trotting out.

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

Here's a fuller explanation;
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=21134

http://www.jamiat.org.za/women/concept_of_hijab.htm
http://www.islam101.com/women/hijabfaq.html (apparently men can't wear gold either)

Here's a more moderate view. Strange thing is there's little quoting of scripture here to back up the moderate case. I wonder why? Is it the fact that there is little backing up his laudable statements in the Quran and other Islamic texts?
http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed06.htm

Why do you associate what someone wears with "modernisation" anyway, do you not think that maybe a lot of Muslim women want to dress that way?

When the garment in question has implications politically, socially and theologically. Garments that imply notions and mores, we in a liberal democracy would find questionable at best. I'm sure many slaves wanted to remain slaves in the southern US before the civil war. It was safer and the hardships of working for a wage may have seemed daunting to someone brought up as a slave(do not get me started on Islam's slaving record). Better the devil you know and all that. I can also see why many Muslim women would want to dress like that. Fair enough. I'm more concerned about the women who don't want to, but have no choice. Liberalism is supposed to be all about choice, so it's funny that many "liberals" take issue with criticism about other cultures where such choices are limited. FFS, Even mixing of genders in school is out;
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=8827&dgn=4

What makes either of you think it was Muslims that did that, besides references to something that happened in France?

Islamic hate groups are springing up all over Europe. As the guy in the article pointed out. their language is that of the far right. They have more in common than is immediately obvious. Look at the Madrid bombings, look at French situation, look at Holland, the Van Gogh murder, the fatwas calling for death on Government ministers. Our neighbour, Britain has it's own issues. I simply don't want it starting here. We must build safeguards against any form of fascism, Muslim, far right or whoever.

What's dubious about that exactly?

It's dubious when smiling children are used to propagate further division in society. It's dubious coming from a site that rattles on about boycotting "Zionist" products.

Frank Grimes · 04-07-2005 3:47pm

Wibbs wrote:

Really? Actually there are more than one statements about what we would refer to as burqhas in Islamic law, both in the Quran and the haddith. It's certainly present in sharia law. Here's just one passage that refutes your theory. May I suggest some further reading on this, rather than trot out the same PC line that PHB was trotting out.

I have done "further reading", just because it doesn't confirm your own stereotypical view of Muslims doesn't mean it's not valid. Did you ever ask a (practising) Muslim woman what she thinks of this btw?
It's interesting that you're taking a very narrow view of something and rebuking anyone that questions it with accusations of liberalism/being PC or lack of understanding. It's not much better than the "fundamentalists" you are condemning, is it?
Regarding this part in your quote: "(i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way).", that would look to be the translators interpretation, so they're using an interpretation in the translation which suits their position, to back their own position. Hardly an impartial point of view is it?
This and verse 24:31 are the only mentions (afaik) of what women's dress, and neither mention covering the face. (I seem to remember reading something saying 33.59 was directed more at Muhammad's family but I could be mistaken)
It's not just "my theory" btw, the majority of Muslim women appear to believe that wearing a full burqa isn't a religious obligation. A great amount of Muslim scholars will also say the same thing. I've seen you use that site before as "evidence" for certain things. Remember, that's only an interpretation from a particular scholar(s) from a particular school of thought regarding this. It is not a definite ruling on Islamic law just because this guy says so.

Garments that imply notions and mores, we in a liberal democracy would find questionable at best.

Liberalism is supposed to be all about choice

So living in a "liberal" democracy implies that you do not have freedom to chose what you wear, interesting.

Islamic hate groups are springing up all over Europe.

You are implying that Muslims were responsible for the anti Semitic vandalism here, what proof do you have?

It's dubious coming from a site that rattles on about boycotting "Zionist" products.

You seemed more interested in their clothes in the last post.

KnowItAll · 05-07-2005 12:17am

If muslims want to live in Ireland they should obey irish laws. In my opinion islam is nothing more than a repressive cult that brainwashes people.

KnowItAll · 05-07-2005 12:26am

therecklessone wrote:

Ever been to a rugby match?

Basketball?

Tennis?

Numerous Irish soccer internationals?

Athletics?

Formula 1?

Golf?

HaHa. Are you serious? Your comparing this crap to a munster hurling final! Ha... I turned on wimbledon the other day for a minute and all I could hear was grunting.. As for soccer, boring. I've never been to a soccer match and will hardly ever go to a sport that has about 2 scores over 90 minutes.

I don't think fans mingle in soccer matches btw.

At least rugby has decent fans and is good to watch but it still isn't hurling.

Btw, are those sports unique to a single country?

gandalf · 05-07-2005 12:39am

KnowItAll wrote:

HaHa. Are you serious? Your comparing this crap to a munster hurling final! Ha... I turned on wimbledon the other day for a minute and all I could hear was grunting.. As for soccer, boring. I've never been to a soccer match and will hardly ever go to a sport that has about 2 scores over 90 minutes.

I don't think fans mingle in soccer matches btw.

At least rugby has decent fans and is good to watch but it still isn't hurling.

Btw, are those sports unique to a single country?

Ah yes but you weren't talking about the Sport in your original post now were you, you were talking about the fans how they mingled etc so now you are talking about the sport well please make your mind up will you.

What this guy and the others have done is show your rather lame and crude effort at showing what irish culture is to be common across a wide variety of countries and cultures.

Please try again................

KnowItAll · 05-07-2005 1:17am

gandalf wrote:

Ah yes but you weren't talking about the Sport in your original post now were you, you were talking about the fans how they mingled etc so now you are talking about the sport well please make your mind up will you.

What this guy and the others have done is show your rather lame and crude effort at showing what irish culture is to be common across a wide variety of countries and cultures.

Please try again................

Actually Gandalf I'm talking about irish culture... Crowd mingling and Hurling itself are all part of irish culture, no?

I didn't mention Hurling itself because I thought I didn't have to as it was so obvious!

Lame and crude eh... Instead of throwing insults, could you explain how my example of irish culture is lame and crude?

Looking forward to hearing your answer!

Frank Grimes · 05-07-2005 6:34am

KnowItAll wrote:

If muslims want to live in Ireland they should obey irish laws. In my opinion islam is nothing more than a repressive cult that brainwashes people.

What makes you think they don't obey Irish laws?

Wibbs · 05-07-2005 10:36am

Frank Grimes wrote:

I have done "further reading", just because it doesn't confirm your own stereotypical view of Muslims doesn't mean it's not valid. Did you ever ask a (practising) Muslim woman what she thinks of this btw?

Actually I have and the vast majority take the less conservative approach, but they have the same concerns that the more "correct" older form of Islam is increasingly taking hold. In any event trying to get a more conservative Muslim woman's opinion is difficult as it's haraam(forbidden) to even talk to a non family member. In any event I'm not stereotyping Muslims, it's certain core values in Islam itself that I take issue with. I have mentioned in other posts that there are many aspects of Islam that we would do well to emulate. The problem is that these laudable aspects are counter balanced by regressive, violent and politically dangerous aspects that would not fit well with our current notion of multiculturism.

At least you have done some further reading. Most have not and their opinions are based on hearsay from both sides of the argument For those wishing to read further.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/reference.html

It's interesting that you're taking a very narrow view of something and rebuking anyone that questions it with accusations of liberalism/being PC or lack of understanding. It's not much better than the "fundamentalists" you are condemning, is it?

Not quite, at least that wasn't my intention. I'm simply suggesting that the prevailing view of Islam as a religion of peace among people who consider themselves liberal I feel is unwarranted in many ways. The vast majority of believers would be on the non radical side but the danger is a growing civil war between the quiet and the radical. The problem with that is that Islam has more dangerous/violent elements than almost any other religion built in from the start.

Regarding this part in your quote: "(i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way).", that would look to be the translators interpretation, so they're using an interpretation in the translation which suits their position, to back their own position. Hardly an impartial point of view is it? And from what I've read, that verse is directed to Muhammad, verse 24:31 is the more general instruction.

The translations and intention are pretty consistent on this verse. Your point that it is directed at Muhammad hardly holds water given that it's Allah who is making the point. 24:31 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.031)is indeed the more easy going verse. (Many consider it to have been written in the earlier part of his life, before he took Mecca. Interestingly this early part of his life has the more relaxed attitude(even concerning alcohol). After Mecca he becomes significantly more militant and indeed intolerant.) Other links on veiling for further reading. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/whatishijab.html. http://www.islamworld.net/hijabvirtue.html http://www.jannah.org/sisters/hijab.html http://www.islamworld.net/hijabconds.html

It's not just "my theory" btw, the majority of Muslim women appear to believe that wearing a full burqa isn't a religious obligation. A great amount of Muslim scholars will also say the same thing.

True many will, but just as many don't agree. As you pointed out 24:31 is the more general instruction its just that there are more oppressive instructions that back it up. As a correction I'll use the term hijab, as it's a better one. The burqa being the most extreme form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_Hijab

I've seen you use that site before as "evidence" for certain things. Remember, that's only an interpretation from a particular scholar(s) from a particular school of thought regarding this. It is not a definite ruling on Islamic law just because this guy says so.

Okay, fair enough, but this is part of the problem with Islam. No central body making decisions that might drag some of the more dubious parts back to the middle ages where they belong.

So living in a "liberal" democracy implies that you do not have freedom to chose what you wear, interesting.

Well actually many would contend that you don't have the right in a liberal society to just wear what you like. At least not if offends or oppresses one particular group in society. Wear a T shirt berating gays blacks or women and see the reaction. A woman dressed head to foot in black walking behind her man represents to many an ideology that is inconsistent with western values.

You seemed more interested in their clothes in the last post.

Well the sight of young girls wrapped up so as not to offend or otherwise incense male desires is a bit rich in this day and age(That said, while some of the intention behind it could be seen as dubious, the concept of Mecca cola thumbing it's nose at a huge global brand appeals to me, on soooo many levels. Maybe KnowItAll could do the same for the Irish "culture" he/she's so proud of. Culchie cola has a nice ring to it. Sorry couldn't resist

)

There are Muslims that are trying to put the moderate parts of Islam to the fore.

http://www.understanding-islam.com

http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm

This site in particular sums up the modernisation of Islam well with some good articles.
http://www.ntpi.org/html/modernity.html
http://www.ntpi.org/html/islamophobia.html
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

Wibbs · 05-07-2005 10:49am

KnowItAll wrote:

If muslims want to live in Ireland they should obey irish laws. In my opinion islam is nothing more than a repressive cult that brainwashes people.

Ehhh, they're probably more likely to obey Irish law than the locals. Not many Islamic burglars I'd imagine. Certainly not among the religious.

As for Islam being a repressive cult; well all religions could be seen as cults that brainwash people. The only difference between Islam and others would be that it's a more political theology that has been very slow to change. It's difficulty lies with integration and the acceptance of other cultures/religions. That's the challenge when it comes to multiculturism.

Frank Grimes · 05-07-2005 12:12pm

Wibbs wrote:

Actually I have and the vast majority take the less conservative approach, but they have the same concerns that the more "correct" older form of Islam is increasingly taking hold.

True, and the main problem (IMO) is a lot of the ideas of this "correct" form seem to filled with Arab and (to some extent) South Asian cultural hangovers from the past dressed up a "pure" form of Islam.
One example being in Afghanistan where the majority of (practising included) Muslims were horrified by the Taliban's version of Islam (which consisted of a lot of Pashtun tribal customs) being forced on them. The majority of Afghan Sunnis are Hanifis whose ideas would not be as extreme as the Taliban's.
One interview with an Afghan I read was basically saying that they (in Herat) saw the situation as a bunch of uneducated farmers from the country telling them how to live etc.

In any event trying to get a more conservative Muslim woman's opinion is difficult as it's haraam(forbidden) to even talk to a non family member.

That's true, I was thinking that after I posted. It would be very difficult to get first hand opinions that are from both sides.

At least you have done some further reading.

Yes. I am basing my opinions on conclusions I've reached myself through my own reading of the sources. (in case you're wondering)

Most have not and their opinions are based on hearsay from both sides of the argument For those wishing to read further.

Yeah, there are too many people spouting off comments on both sides which are based on third hand information. That usc.edu site is pretty good, I'd normally use that for online reference too.

I'm simply suggesting that the prevailing view of Islam as a religion of peace among people who consider themselves liberal I feel is unwarranted in many ways.

Although I would differ in opinion with you on other points you made regarding the "fighting" verses etc. in the Quran, this point is true - I think certain people seem to be under the impression that Islam is a pacifist religion, which is something it never claims to be.
I'll take a look at those other links later when I've more time, thanks.

Well actually many would contend that you don't have the right in a liberal society to just wear what you like. At least not if offends or oppresses one particular group in society.

In this case i.e. what Muslims wear, who defines what is oppressive/offensive? I, and many others, do not see what they wear as either. Does that make that particular opinion any more or less valid? And as a great deal of Muslims are Western Europeans by birth if not ethnicity (for want of a better word), does their view not count for something when defining what is or is not acceptable in "Western" cultural terms?
Just because something is outside the norm does not necessarily make it wrong. But it's all a matter of opinion I guess.

That said, while some of the intention behind it could be seen as dubious, the concept of Mecca cola thumbing it's nose at a huge global brand appeals to me, on soooo many levels.

I agree, although I don't believe there are any sinister motives behind it, but that's again just an opinion.

Culchie cola has a nice ring to it

Yes it does. Perhaps a Potato flavoured variety could do something for our culture too

therecklessone · 05-07-2005 1:25pm

KnowItAll wrote:

HaHa. Are you serious? Your comparing this crap to a munster hurling final! Ha... I turned on wimbledon the other day for a minute and all I could hear was grunting.. As for soccer, boring. I've never been to a soccer match and will hardly ever go to a sport that has about 2 scores over 90 minutes.

I didn't ask for your opinion of those sports, I gave them as examples of other sports where fans mix freely, regardless of their allegiance. Are you denying that's the case?

I can see we'll have to speak slowly and clearly for your benefit, maybe if I find a way to type in crayon you'll find it easier to understand?

My first post responded to this quote:

KnowItAll wrote:

Over 40,000 people in a stadium, highly charged atmosphere, in a final! Come on!

Were the fans segregrated, no.

So where else does it take place?

So when listed a number of other sports, it was to show that there are many cases where fans mix freely at sporting occassions, creating a fantastic atmosphere as well.

My second post reponded to this post:

and where would you find the craic or the atmosphere of a munster hurling final?

And I've shown you examples of that as well.

So you're example of Irish culture was:

Sporting event X (No segregation + atmosphere) = Irish culture.

Which is crap TBH.

[

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't think fans mingle in soccer matches btw.

My experience last Monday at Tolka Park when Shelbourne played Derry City says otherwise. I sat yards from the large group of travelling fans and freely supported my own team Shelbourne.

My original example mentioned Irish internationals. Think in particular Ireland vs Italy at Giant's Stadium New York, 1994. Actually, think of the majority of games we've featured in.

Also think of recent meetings between Celtic and Liverpool in European competition.

KnowItAll wrote:

Btw, are those sports unique to a single country?

If you wanted to highlight hurling as a unique aspect of Irish culture, why didn't you do that in the first place?

And how exactly is it under threat from immigrants? I've umpired Gaelic games for my brother (who is an inter-county referee), and my father was secretary of our local GAA club for 42 years before he passed away 5 years ago. I've plenty of experience of both main codes, and there is nothing to suggest that either will suffer as a result of non-nationals coming to this country.

My experience has been that immigrants have embraced our national game (certainly at juvenile, minor, and junior levels). Do you welcome that, or would you still send them packing?

gandalf · 05-07-2005 1:57pm

KnowItAll wrote:

Actually Gandalf I'm talking about irish culture... Crowd mingling and Hurling itself are all part of irish culture, no?

I didn't mention Hurling itself because I thought I didn't have to as it was so obvious!

Ah you assumed didn't you. Well from reading your original little example I took it to represent the behaviour of the crowd and not the game itself. It appears that most other people who responded assumed thats what you meant as well.

Lame and crude eh... Instead of throwing insults, could you explain how my example of irish culture is lame and crude?

Looking forward to hearing your answer!

Yes because your example was weak and it appears didn't even represent what you were trying to express. As for Hurling yes that would be an example but prey tell how do foreigners coming into the country put that at risk. If anything it exposes the game to a larger audience and allows us to export Irish Culture abroad therefore making it stronger.

My god I even believe there are GAA clubs in Argentina those damn foreigners are taking over.

Next Please !!!

(btw here is the proof for you http://www.hurling-club.com.ar/)

Dagon · 27-07-2005 5:56pm

If it's good examples of Irish culture you're after, then perhaps the Irish music scene would be a good one? I'm a musician who regularly plays sessions, and during the summer I hit the trad festival trail all over different parts of Ireland. You see people of all ages coming to gether in small towns (mostly in the west) to share and learn new tunes and songs. You have plenty of craic, and it's great to see people from all over the world come to learn and play our music. It really is a great buzz, and anyone who has gone to a town full of sessions, e.g. Milltown Malbay, will understand. It's really magic to walk into a pub and see young musicians and old playing together and having the craic. And then of course you have the irish friendliness and banter on the streets and all over the town... I think this phenomenon is somewhat unique to our country, and I think we have some of the best traditional music in the world, and one of the most vibrant and *alive* scenes, considering there are festivals and summer schools (even into November) in many small rural towns.

Also the way the music has evolved from the tradition and been updated by different young generations of musicians is amazing, and it's something that has helped families and communities together - this common bond of a love for the music of our country.

By the way, this is not intended in any way to be a nationalistic post - I'm friendly with people from many different races (a lot of whom play irish music), just that you guys seemed to be at a loss to find examples of irish culture other that a sport.

KnowItAll · 28-07-2005 12:19am

Good example.

Dagon wrote:

just that you guys seemed to be at a loss to find examples of irish culture other that a sport.

I could think of more than sport but why bother when the example of Hurling didn't seem to be good enough for some people.

Rev Hellfire · 31-07-2005 10:37am

A lot of noise is been made about the idea that the big difference between Islam and Christianity is the idea that somehow Islam provides more than just a belief system but rather also a set of rules for society is a little bit misleading. Christianity also has many rules in common with Islam on that score, for example Christianity also requires women to cover their head (Corinthians 11:3-10 anyone).
The radicalised view of Islam as a whole that is portrayed on these boards is alien to vast majority of Muslims, that is not to deny scourge of radicalisations which has rooted itself in sections of the Muslim population. But perhaps there are lessons which irish society should take from both Islam and Christianity about respect for yourself and others.

But on the topic of multiculturalism and the idea that somehow Irish society will be corrupted by the onslaught of these ‘foreigners’ to these shores is laughable. That might be true if the island had been hermetically sealed from the rest of the world for the past 1000 years but that is not the case. Irish culture has been revitalised and enhanced continually by non-Irish entering and those irish that have left returning. For any society to grow and be relevant it must be open to new ideas and strong enough to resist those ideas which are destructive, this was as true 1000 years ago as it is today, a failure to do so can only lead to stagnation, decay and irrelevancy.

Wibbs · 03-08-2005 11:53am

Rev Hellfire wrote:

A lot of noise is been made about the idea that the big difference between Islam and Christianity is the idea that somehow Islam provides more than just a belief system but rather also a set of rules for society is a little bit misleading. Christianity also has many rules in common with Islam on that score, for example Christianity also requires women to cover their head (Corinthians 11:3-10 anyone).
The radicalised view of Islam as a whole that is portrayed on these boards is alien to vast majority of Muslims, that is not to deny scourge of radicalisations which has rooted itself in sections of the Muslim population. But perhaps there are lessons which irish society should take from both Islam and Christianity about respect for yourself and others.

I agree wholeheartedly that the vast majority of Muslims have no time for the things perpetrated in the name of their faith. In fact, one of the most peaceful human beings I ever knew was a Muslim. However, I disagree that Islam can be compared to other faiths in this regard. Certainly Christianity has some rules in common, but Islam has codes of law and practice that reach into every aspect of peoples lives. Sharia law would be one such example. Codes of conduct from personal hygiene, rules governing inheritance and all the way to how to chose a caliph or leader are laid down in the Quran and Hadeeth. Laid down and immutable over time as the Quran cannot be changed. To even suggest it would be against Islam.

Most, if not all of the world's major religions may have become politicized over time, but Islam had those mechanisms from the start. Islam has always been a militaristic expansionist faith from it's very inception. As I suggested earlier in this thread, when did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna, etc suggest a man fight a holy war against unbelievers and kill or enslave them if they don't convert, or kill their own kind if they turn away from the faith? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna personally wage a holy war that led to the deaths of thousands to ensure their faith and the idea of an Islamic nation prospered?

Fight the unbelievers till there is no religion but Islam
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.193

Fight the unbelievers at every turn
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.065
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123

Some direct quotes on attitudes to unbelievers
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005

If these sentiments in this form aren't incompatible with multiculturism, I honestly don't know what are. There is talk elsewhere of an Islamic forum. Maybe there we can get a better idea how the average Muslim thinks about these issues and how it affects them in a secular state.

Agree with you entirely with regard to your second paragraph.

mycroft · 03-08-2005 3:40pm

KnowItAll wrote:

Good example.

I could think of more than sport but why bother when the example of Hurling didn't seem to be good enough for some people.

No it's example, you've just yet to define;

A) how this is an uniquely Irish phenomena?

How it is under threat from foreign immigrants?

As I've pointed out to you before, one of the finest hurlers in the current cork squad was born in borneo.

So firstly how is the final a uniquely Irish event. It's an Irish sport yes, but we can demostrate that people across the globe can also attent massive sporting events, without trouble, and with fans drinking and mingling.

How is Irish culture under threat, what specific danger does immirgration pose to the Munster hurling final?

Jesus Trash Can · 12-08-2005 9:59am

tim3115 wrote:

Multiple cultures create the Irish culture? Do you include the way of the Romanians in that? Along with the Italians? Sure throw in some Spaniards with that..

I don't see how that creates the Irish culture, our ancestors created it. True Irish men and women.

If culture is just something that dead people used to do, then what is the point of it? If it isn't bringing meaning and love into our lives, then it serves no other purpose except that of the culture theme park that the free market is so comfortable with.
Culture is something you do, What is the point for instance in spending millions of euro in Brussels translating Irish and then completey neglecting to speak it back home? There is no law against culture or the practice of it. Nobody stops being Irish. There is only the bland void of the free market and the transformation from citizen to consumer.

Gazza22 · 12-08-2005 9:51pm

I don't think traditional irish culture could be tainted.

I would be more worried tbh with the americanisation of certain things in Ireland and Europe.

KnowItAll · 14-08-2005 12:52am

mycroft wrote:

No it's example, you've just yet to define;

A) how this is an uniquely Irish phenomena?

How it is under threat from foreign immigrants?

As I've pointed out to you before, one of the finest hurlers in the current cork squad was born in borneo.

So firstly how is the final a uniquely Irish event. It's an Irish sport yes, but we can demostrate that people across the globe can also attent massive sporting events, without trouble, and with fans drinking and mingling.

How is Irish culture under threat, what specific danger does immirgration pose to the Munster hurling final?

You can ask all sorts of questions about defining things etc if you want.

The whole point to the thread was me saying that multiculturism = death of the Irish culture. People say that multiculturism "adds" to irish culture but what they really mean is it changes Irish culture.

KnowItAll · 14-08-2005 12:55am

Jesus Trash Can wrote:

Culture is something you do, What is the point for instance in spending millions of euro in Brussels translating Irish and then completey neglecting to speak it back home?

There are 100's of thousands of people who speak Irish. They being part of the EU have a right, like every other language, to be able to read EU documents in their native language.

mycroft · 14-08-2005 1:05am

KnowItAll wrote:

You can ask all sorts of questions about defining things etc if you want.

The whole point to the thread was me saying that multiculturism = death of the Irish culture. People say that multiculturism "adds" to irish culture but what they really mean is it changes Irish culture.

You've yet to explain how this one example of Irish culture (that you could find) was under threat from mulitculturialism.

How is it under threat? What threat does multiculturalism pose the munster hurling final?

There are 100's of thousands of people who speak Irish. They being part of the EU have a right, like every other language, to be able to read EU documents in their native language.

The concept is working languages. I'd define a working language as a language thats spoken by one more EU countries as their first tongue. Constitutionally we may have irish as our primary langauge, but pratically it's english. Seeing as we don't need irish to communicate with our neighbours it's irrelevant.

While it would be "nice" I see little point in going to the trouble and expense of translating tens of thousands and documents a year to satisfy the tiny handful who really want to read the nice treaty in irish.

rsynnott · 15-08-2005 2:09am

KnowItAll wrote:

You can ask all sorts of questions about defining things etc if you want.

The whole point to the thread was me saying that multiculturism = death of the Irish culture. People say that multiculturism "adds" to irish culture but what they really mean is it changes Irish culture.

*gasps in horror* It has never, ever changed before, obviously.

Jesus Trash Can · 16-08-2005 10:23am

KnowItAll wrote:

There are 100's of thousands of people who speak Irish. They being part of the EU have a right, like every other language, to be able to read EU documents in their native language.

Believe me, there is nothing I would love more, than for all of us to speak our language. However, more damage has been done to the Irish language by the state than any other body. They have actively created a buffer between the language and the people by institutionalising the language.
An insistance on having the butt clenching detail of the workings of the EU apparatchik is unhelpful, lazy, unimaginative and typical. How does Luxemberg despite it's geographical location and population size, manage to retain a vibrant and relevant native tongue? Purely and simply by speaking it. Although I'm sure it will be easier to just blame Nigerians than to lift a finger to change anything.

KnowItAll · 17-08-2005 12:21am

mycroft wrote:

You've yet to explain how this one example of Irish culture (that you could find) was under threat from mulitculturialism.

How is it under threat? What threat does multiculturalism pose the munster hurling final?

Multiculturism promotes other sports. The number of people playing hurling have dropped since sports like soccer became popular.

mycroft wrote:

The concept is working languages. I'd define a working language as a language thats spoken by one more EU countries as their first tongue.

Ok. Your entitled to your opinion but I disagree. Why should a working language have to be spoken in more than 1 country?

Wibbs · 17-08-2005 9:08am

KnowItAll wrote:

Ok. Your entitled to your opinion but I disagree. Why should a working language have to be spoken in more than 1 country?

I'd be happy if irish was spoken regularly in this country, by most of the population. Problem is, it isn't. Not exactly a working language. but that's a subject for another thread.

rsynnott · 17-08-2005 11:23am

KnowItAll wrote:

Multiculturism promotes other sports. The number of people playing hurling have dropped since sports like soccer became popular.

People are excerising FREE WILL AND CHOICE!!! Burn! Destroy!

KnowItAll · 24-08-2005 12:11am

rsynnott wrote:

People are excerising FREE WILL AND CHOICE!!! Burn! Destroy!

Are they? Every time I turn on the TV I see soccer, soccer players, managers, coaches, matches, soccer phone in shows etc. We're being forced fed soccer 24/7. Even during the summer all I was hearing was transfers. You'd actually think it was an exciting game!

PHB · 24-08-2005 12:31am

You ever notice how Soccer has never really picked up in America?
Its cause Americans don't like it that much, and rather their own game.
Unlike in Ireland, where most people don't like GAA, and rather Soccer.
The problem isn't with multiculturalism, its with the game.
Don't blame it for the inability of the game you like to attract people to it.

Multiculturism?

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