Multiculturism?

pickarooney

This is possibly the worst 'debating' I've ever come across. Every last one of you is talking at cross-purposes (except perhaps Dagon), contradicting himself and doing everything to avoid the subject. Why do you bother?

therecklessone

pickarooney wrote:

This is possibly the worst 'debating' I've ever come across. Every last one of you is talking at cross-purposes (except perhaps Dagon), contradicting himself and doing everything to avoid the subject. Why do you bother?

Either improve the standard of the debate or stay out. Your contribution above adds nothing to the thread.

KnowItAll

therecklessone wrote:

Oh, so now you accept his research? I thought he was biased against the Irish, and that our successful economy "proved" him wrong?

I disagreed with him about the Irish IQ findings nothing else!

therecklessone wrote:

How can he be so right about multiculturalism and so wrong about the Irish national IQ.

I don't recall him talking about multiculturism, do you?

therecklessone wrote:

By the way, I'm still waiting for your idea of the Irish national culture. You know, the one you claim is under threat from the foreign hordes?

You have been living in Ireland (or do you???) all this time and your asking me to explain what Irish culture is!

KnowItAll

pickarooney wrote:

This is possibly the worst 'debating' I've ever come across. Every last one of you is talking at cross-purposes (except perhaps Dagon), contradicting himself and doing everything to avoid the subject. Why do you bother?

I'm interested to know where I have contradicted myself...

therecklessone

KnowItAll wrote:

You have been living in Ireland (or do you???) all this time and your asking me to explain what Irish culture is!

Never mind where I live, answer the question. What is Irish culture?

therecklessone

therecklessone wrote:

How can he be so right about multiculturalism and so wrong about the Irish national IQ.

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't recall him talking about multiculturism, do you?

****s sake, [edited] read the thread!

KnowItAll wrote:

Btw, it proves only, that multiculturism does not raise the national IQ average like some people here believe!

Thems your own words!

Wibbs

Regardless of the viewpoints, multiculturalism seems to have a bad history and an uncertain future. If you look at most multicultural societies there are serious problems. The UK is one of the better examples and even there the riots in the 70s/80s(Brixton, Toxteth etc) and the current unrest between the various Muslim communities and their neighbours seemed to make the rantings of someone like Enoch Powell prophetic. The US is even worse. There is still an undercurrent of race hostility that needs little to inflame it into full blown race riots(Rodney King case etc). Holland is on a knife edge and France and Germany aren't too far behind.

There seems to be a innate tribalism in humanity that may accept a small population of "outsiders" but when a certain number is reached this boils over to resentment, hate and finally aggression. It's not even down to race. Just look at Ulster FFS. Two populations that are pretty much identical, yet still have an uneasy peace with each other years after (most) of the reasons they hated each other in the first place are gone. Different colours just make the identification of the other easier. Stupidity tends to be lazy after all.

Setting aside my personal viewpoint(Pretty liberal BTW) I would suggest that, given the experience of other countries and the difficulties faced by them in integrating large populations of non nationals, we should learn from this and restrict immigration and avoid such problems in the first place. Not PC I know. Just my two cents worth. I wouldn't like to wake up in this country to find that we've royally screwed up just to make some silly PC point.

That said an injection of new blood into the "Irish" gene pool is way overdue.

As for the national IQ issue. I read other research(not the good Dr. previously quoted) that seemed to back up the idea that Ireland had a lower IQ than some other EU countries. Again caution is required with any of these studies as very rarely are the methodologies or indeed even the numbers of people polled even revealed.

That said some cultures/races do appear to be more industrious. Interesting topic on the the BBC news last night where they compared the relative growth of Ghana and Malaysia since independence from Britain. The two countries started off from similar starting points yet Malaysia has streaked ahead. One example was the palm oil crop. Palm oil comes from a tree that is native to sub Saharan Africa, yet Ghana has made little of it's natural asset and exports very little oil. Malaysia on the other hand is the world's biggest exporter of the the self same oil. All this from trees that were exported from Ghana in the first place!! This is repeated throughout sub Sahara Africa. Botswana seems to be one of the few examples where they're doing OK. Nigeria has huge natural resources yet is still in bits, with a large amount of it's population trying to leave and who can blame them. By rights they should be one of the richest countries in the world, never mind In Africa.

KnowItAll

therecklessone wrote:

Never mind where I live, answer the question. What is Irish culture?

I'm not going to go into it because I'd be writing all night and I'm not going to spend that time for you.

Why don't you say what you thing Irish culture is?

I'm guessing you'll be back again asking me the same question and you'll get the same answer!

therecklessone

KnowItAllWithNoAnswersToGive wrote:

I'm guessing you'll be back again asking me the same question and you'll get the same answer!

Then your incapable of arguing your point, and are doing nothing more than blowing hot air. Why waste the resources of boards to do it?

My concept of what comprises the Irish culture is irrelevant, since you are the one claiming our culture is under threat. If you can't even be bothered outlining what that culture consists of, and how it is being undermined by "dirty foreigners", then why should any of us bother to listen to you rant and rave about the evils of multiculturalism.

KnowItAllWithNoAnswersToGive wrote:

You have been living in Ireland (or do you???) all this time and your asking me to explain what Irish culture is!

I'll bite.

In my 27 years living in this country I've seen:

• Massive tax evasion
• Political corruption
• Hypocrisy from Church leaders
• Clerical child abuse
• Revealations of institutional child abuse, both sexual and physical, in the not too distant past
• A police force discredited by dishonest and downright criminal members
• A growing alcohol problem, where public drunkeness is not only tolerated, but is encouraged
• An alarming increase in random acts of senseless violence on our streets
• The emergence of increasingly ruthless criminal gangs controlling the illicit drugs trade in this country
• A frightening increase in the use of illegal narcotics, particularly cocaine in recent years
• Our rip-off culture
• An increase in conspicuous consumer consumption

You're right yeah, if we let all those darkies and ragheads in we'll be rightly screwing up our green and pleasant land... :rolleyes:

Wibbs

therecklessone wrote:

You're right yeah, if we let all those darkies and ragheads in we'll be rightly screwing up our green and pleasant land... :rolleyes:

well put.

Still, while I agree with you wholeheartedly(both on this and the v loose concept of Irish "culture"), Racism/tribalism etc is an ugly truth, so would it not be prudent to have an immigration policy that at least reduces the risk of adding the spectre of racial tension to our past and existing woes.

It's a hard question I know, but how do we go about constructing a society that embraces a beneficial multiculturalism while not ghettoising those very cultures that decide to call Ireland home. I do hope that we can grow enough to leave all that crap behind, but the experience of other multicultural societies leaves me a bit pessimistic.

KnowItAll

therecklessone wrote:

In my 27 years living in this country I've seen:

• Massive tax evasion
• Political corruption
• Hypocrisy from Church leaders
• Clerical child abuse
• Revealations of institutional child abuse, both sexual and physical, in the not too distant past
• A police force discredited by dishonest and downright criminal members
• A growing alcohol problem, where public drunkeness is not only tolerated, but is encouraged
• An alarming increase in random acts of senseless violence on our streets
• The emergence of increasingly ruthless criminal gangs controlling the illicit drugs trade in this country
• A frightening increase in the use of illegal narcotics, particularly cocaine in recent years
• Our rip-off culture
• An increase in conspicuous consumer consumption

You're right yeah, if we let all those darkies and ragheads in we'll be rightly screwing up our green and pleasant land... :rolleyes:

And thats the difference between you and me. You look at the negative side of things while I tend to look at the positive. I know there is a major drink problem etc but there is a positive side to Irish culture also.

If you are so negative about the country why don't you leave?

Karl Hungus

Wibbs wrote:

I do hope that we can grow enough to leave all that crap behind, but the experience of other multicultural societies leaves me a bit pessimistic.

One of the problems of multiculturalism is political correctness, and specifically here in Ireland, while those at Residents Against Racism are screaming racist at the top of their lungs and calling Ireland and it's people racist, nobody stops to consider that immigrants/asylum seekers might not be all that tolerant either. It's entirely one-sided.

therecklessone

KnowFeckAll wrote:

And thats the difference between you and me. You look at the negative side of things while I tend to look at the positive. I know there is a major drink problem etc but there is a positive side to Irish culture also.

Ahahahahahahahaha...

You? Positive? How? I've asked you numerous times to outline you're idea of what our culture means and you've continually refused. So how positive can you be? Come on laughing boy, show me how wrong I am.

KnowFeckAll wrote:

If you are so negative about the country why don't you leave?

Wow, there's a surprise. All you're missing is "being negative about Irieland is unpatriotic".

I've had my fill of you. I'd like you to answer the one question you've avoided to date. Please.

Wibbs

Karl Hungus wrote:

One of the problems of multiculturalism is political correctness, and specifically here in Ireland, while those at Residents Against Racism are screaming racist at the top of their lungs and calling Ireland and it's people racist, nobody stops to consider that immigrants/asylum seekers might not be all that tolerant either. It's entirely one-sided.

How very right you are. The idea that we've got a monopoly on intolerance while the very countries that most of the people coming here are from, are amongst the most intolerant places on earth. Religious, political and racial intolerance are the everyday reality in many of these countries. I for one don't want to import these problems.

As an example, in Saudi Arabia it is illegal to wear a religious item(non Islamic) such as a cross in public. Other examples of intolerance are many, but hey that's their "culture"
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35507.htm (I picked a US Gov site as an example as they have a somewhat "friendly" relationship with SA)

Their record in the treatment of non Islamic peoples in Saudi is pretty bad as well, but hey, under Islamic Sharia law that's considered fine. :rolleyes: Now why should I or anyone else in the "west" have to tolerate those same backward views on our own doorstep. Much in the same way I would respect the law in such countries, I feel people coming here should respect our cultural norms as well.

The sight of women dressed from head to foot in burqhas following their man at a respectful distance is frankly an outmoded barabaric practice that should not be encouraged, much less feted by some twisted sense of cutural equality. I am not however advocating the French model of banning headscarves entirely. That's a step too far, but you see many Malaysian(among others) Muslim women about town dressed normally and modestly in every way but still wearing headscarves. They are hanging on to their culture while still being fully formed members of a modern society. So it can be done(as an aside they look v stylish too).

This is not restricted to the Islamic cultures either. Others have less overt practices that we may and should find uncomfortable. Certain African fundamentalist Christian/animist sects spring to mind as well. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4098172.stm

As Karl Hungus has pointed out it is entirely one sided and it will continue to be until we say enough is enough. If we don't fight for a balanced modern liberal society this argument will be a moot one very soon as many things we value can and will be lost under the twin boots of political correctness and intolerance of our culture by the very people who seek to live in it. We have much to lose if we're not careful. If we don't stand up against such things we may find ourselves climbing into cultural coffins of our own making while admiring the quality of our workmanship. I hope it doesn't go that far.

Karl Hungus

Wibbs wrote:

The sight of women dressed from head to foot in burqhas following their man at a respectful distance is frankly an outmoded barabaric practice that should not be encouraged, much less feted by some twisted sense of cutural equality. I am not however advocating the French model of banning headscarves entirely. That's a step too far, but you see many Malaysian(among others) Muslim women about town dressed normally and modestly in every way but still wearing headscarves. They are hanging on to their culture while still being fully formed members of a modern society. So it can be done(as an aside they look v stylish too).

I disagree about France banning headscarfs being a step too far. In fact, I'd say it's a case of too little too late.

I'm sure your aware of the troubles with Muslims in France, and I remember reading an article where in some suburban comminities, ALL women had to wear burqhas reguarldless of whether they were Muslim or not, because the belief that if they weren't covered they were "For everybody" resulted in many young women being beaten, raped and murdered.

Now, we in Ireland have pretty much just climbed up from being a pretty backwards country, under the heel of the Catholic Church and subject to its beliefs, but now we're facing a whole new religion with a whole new set of barbaric beliefs and disgusting practices, only now, we can't call them on it for fear of being labelled Racist.

Now whether we as a country are going to put the beliefs of some in higher reguard than the human rights and dignity of others is the question. Can we overcome political correctness?

PHB

Don't you think it's hypocritcal from a nation which systematically oppressed women for centuries, including governmental support for this system, to lecture the muslim world on women's rights?
Religious extremism will change over time

Karl Hungus

PHB wrote:

Don't you think it's hypocritcal from a nation which systematically oppressed women for centuries, including governmental support for this system, to lecture the muslim world on women's rights?
Religious extremism will change over time

That opens up a whole new can of worms there PHB, but I don't believe for one second that figuratively speaking, the sins of the father should be visited on the son. I doubt that myself, or anyone else on this thread, or even most young people alive in Ireland today, have engaged in "Systematically oppressing women for centuries", so no, I do not think that it's hipocritical. I'd take exception if some wifebeater, or rapist were to criticize, but this isn't the case here.

I firmly believe that Ireland has evolved in leaps and bounds, and it's a place I'm proud to call home, simply because of how far we've come. I also think that you're right, religious extremism will change, but I don't see how letting certain beliefs drag Ireland kicking and screaming back in time 60+ years, just because it's not 'Politically correct' to question those beliefs.

I think it's a question of whether or not we're going to be tolerant of people's intolerances. Are human rights going to be ignored over being PC?

Wibbs

PHB wrote:

Don't you think it's hypocritcal from a nation which systematically oppressed women for centuries, including governmental support for this system, to lecture the muslim world on women's rights?
Religious extremism will change over time

The religious extremism of Islam hasn't changed in over a 1000 yrs. Why do reckon it's likely to change anytime soon? One of the problems with this question is that people assume that this is extremism or local custom not the true Islam. Certainly Christianity has been hijacked over the years for different peoples and causes, but it would be a mistake IMHO to think of Islam in the same way. Much of what many would describe as extremism are basic tenets of the faith. While there are many laudable passages concerning peace and love(to other muslims mainly), Slavery, subjugation of women(a man is even told how to beat his wife FFS) and war against unbelievers are all written very clearly in the Quran. there's not a lot of leeway for interpretation.

Now many in the Muslim world are trying to concentrate on the good aspects of the religion, but that proves difficult in the face of an original text that holds many things dear that we would find uncomfortable.

PHB

Its not 60 years, its about 20 years. And the majority of our parents would have lived during that time.
I don't think the sins of the father should be handed down, but lets not forget the society we were, and lets not look down on other societies only 20 years behind us!
Moderisation will lead to less extreme religion, and its just that simple

---

The extremism of Christianity hadn't changed over 1000 years, and until about 1920's they didn't change, then they changed rapidly. If Chrisianity and Ireland could do it, why can't Muslim countries?

Certainly Christianity has been hijacked over the years for different peoples and causes, but it would be a mistake IMHO to think of Islam in the same way. Much of what many would describe as extremism are basic tenets of the faith

That's just flatly competely untrue.
Yes they are in the scriptures, but they are also directly written in the bible, yet they aren't central tenants of Christianity

Wibbs

PHB wrote:

Its not 60 years, its about 20 years. And the majority of our parents would have lived during that time.

I was around 20 yrs ago and I don't seem to remember women without the vote, shuttered up in their houses, only to be let out veiled from head to foot. Yes I am being facetious there and apologies if that's a stretch, but we must at least compare like with like. I would like someone to find any reference in the scriptures of Christianity(or any other faith) where the injustices in this country you speak of would be suggested or condoned.

lets not look down on other societies only 20 years behind us! Moderisation will lead to less extreme religion, and its just that simple

I also think "only 20yrs behind us" is being optimistic to say the least and if modernisation will lead to less extreme religion, how does one explain Saudi Arabia and other oil rich countries, most of which have a higher standard of living than ourselves, yet over time have become even more radicalised.

That's just flatly competely untrue.
Yes they are in the scriptures, but they are also directly written in the bible, yet they aren't central tenants of Christianity

Just where are they written in the bible or indeed any other religious texts? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna suggest a man should beat his wife, cover her completely in public or regard her as lesser than a man(a 1/4 or 1/2 lesser depending on situation)? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna suggest a man fight a holy war against unbelievers and kill or enslave them if they don't convert, or kill their own kind if they turn away from the faith? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna personally wage a holy war that led to the deaths of thousands to ensure their faith prospered?

One of the diferences in Islam is that it is both a religious book and a book on how to order a society, both practically and politically. Church and state are one in the same. It would be very difficult to seperate the two. Unlike here where we have come on in leaps and bounds in that regard. It was tradition(among many other things) that bound the two together here. The marriage of church and state was not enshrined in the teachings of Christianity to nearly the same extent as it is in Islam.

Of course one can point to many instances in the past where "christians" and others rode into dubious battles holding their religious banners high(with the exception of Buddism), but none of the originators of these faiths personally ordered such acts and would doubtless been horrified at such acts carried out in their name.

I would suggest a cursory read of the Quran and other relevant Islamic texts to see what I mean. Sure there is peace, charity and good advice in there, yet there are ugly passages that are xenophobic, sexist and extreme and as such have no place in a modern society.

Karl Hungus

PHB wrote:

Its not 60 years, its about 20 years. And the majority of our parents would have lived during that time.
I don't think the sins of the father should be handed down, but lets not forget the society we were, and lets not look down on other societies only 20 years behind us!
Moderisation will lead to less extreme religion, and its just that simple

---

The extremism of Christianity hadn't changed over 1000 years, and until about 1920's they didn't change, then they changed rapidly. If Chrisianity and Ireland could do it, why can't Muslim countries?

I'd gladly jump headfirst into the debate of how far we've come compared to societies that are largely Muslim, and as someone who was alive more than 20 years ago, would nearly call you for the flat-out bovine manure that comment is, but that's all getting away from the point at hand.

We're not talking about Muslim countries, we are talking about our country and whether or not extremists should be tolerated in the intrests of political correctness. Even your comments, PHB, reek of that kind of attitude. Sure, even if they were only 20 years behind us, we shouldn't ignore the basic human rights of women, while we wait for modernization.

I found the article I was refering to previously, so click here to read it.

Most importantly, this section here:

The anti-Semitism has created a threat to the physical safety for French Jews. Almost every week, some Jews get mugged, simply for being Jews. Almost nobody pays attention to it. When an anti-Semitic act is so disgusting it is impossible to hide it, journalists will speak of "confrontation between communities." When confronted with the reality that these "confrontations" are always Muslims attacking Jews, the editorial response: "Just because there has yet to be a single documented case of a Jew attacking a Muslim yet doesn't mean it will never happen. . . ."

And Jews are not the only victims of France's new identification with radical Islam. In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe.

Dare I suggest that recent desecration and vandalization of Jewish property in Dublin is of any corelation?
I think I do dare!

Anti-Semetic Graffiti Painted On Jewish Buildings In Dublin

Also:

In the Irish Independent, 12.11.2004, news of vandalism of Irish Jewish sites after the death of Yassir Arafat appeared. On the front wall of the Irish Jewish Museum on Dublin's South Circular Road, a black swastika was daubed. At the National War Memorial at Islandbridge, yellow paint was sprayed on the cross, altar, and memorials. Slogans urging 'Free Iraq', ''Traitors' and ''Burn in Hell' were written.

And while I'm sure we all agree that it's a fairly disgusting display, there seems to be a large consensus believing that's its really all the fault of those damned racists that are oh-so prevalent here in Ireland. :rolleyes:
When all else fails, blame stormfront.


Now, we all seem to be opposed to KnowItAll's harking back to the days of our Catholic country, and in my eyes, we're quite right. The flipside to this is that we're not excusing him because he's a bit behind the rest of us, just like all the radical followers of Islam that PHB seems to excuse with his comments.

My point here being that a bigot is a bigot is a bigot and should never be excused regluardless of faith, race or social background.

Yes, Muslim societies can (I saw can, because there's no definite course the future will take) advance, change, and of course, modernization can lead to less extremity in religion, but that doesn't make the segregation, humiliation, and downright sickening treatment of women that is happening in the here and now ok. If we hold human rights in any estimation whatsoever, we shouldn't excuse it, ignore it, or pretend it will just go away.


Multiculturalism will not work if we don't accept that people of other cultures can be racists and bigots too. If we keep saying "Racism is evil" only to ourselfs, it's all going to explode in our faces like a petrol bomb (Birmingham Race Riots anyone?).


Edit:

Sorry, I left that on a bit of a downer there. I'd like to say that I do believe Multiculturalism can work, and the very fact that I have had a Korean girlfriend would back this up, so I'm more than optimistic that we can all get along, but I don't think we should rely on hoping that everyone who comes into our society are going to be 100% good honest people.

KnowItAll

therecklessone wrote:

You? Positive? How? I've asked you numerous times to outline you're idea of what our culture means and you've continually refused.

OK... I'll give you an example of Irish culture.

Last sunday I went to the munster final between Cork and Tipperary. Hung around Cork before the match and went for a couple of drinks after the match. The Tipp and Cork fans were mingling throughout the day and there wasn't a bit of bother.

After the match both sets of fans mingled in the pubs and still even with drink taken there was no bother. The Tipp fans were gracious in defeat and not a bit sour.

It's just an example of Irish culture. What other culture would you see this happening?

KnowItAll

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now, we all seem to be opposed to KnowItAll's harking back to the days of our Catholic country, and in my eyes, we're quite right. The flipside to this is that we're not excusing him because he's a bit behind the rest of us,

I think I'm ahead of most of you actually! Could you explain how you think I'm behind. I cannot wait to hear it!

Karl Hungus wrote:

My point here being that a bigot is a bigot is a bigot and should never be excused regluardless of faith, race or social background.

Are you saying I'm a bigot?

gandalf

KnowItAll wrote:

OK... I'll give you an example of Irish culture.

Last sunday I went to the munster final between Cork and Tipperary. Hung around Cork before the match and went for a couple of drinks after the match. The Tipp and Cork fans were mingling throughout the day and there wasn't a bit of bother.

After the match both sets of fans mingled in the pubs and still even with drink taken there was no bother. The Tipp fans were gracious in defeat and not a bit sour.

It's just an example of Irish culture. What other culture would you see this happening?

Ok let me get this right, this is your example of Irish Culture.

People going to a sporting occasion, mixing beforehand without any trouble and mixing afterwards without any trouble. Congrats you have just described the majority of sporting occasions around the globe.

Try harder please.

bus77

We'll have to try and get the Muslems on to the drink.

therecklessone

gandalf wrote:

Ok let me get this right, this is your example of Irish Culture.

People going to a sporting occasion, mixing beforehand without any trouble and mixing afterwards without any trouble. Congrats you have just described the majority of sporting occasions around the globe.

Try harder please.

Perfect summary of my own reaction on reading his post.

KnowItAll

gandalf wrote:

Ok let me get this right, this is your example of Irish Culture.

People going to a sporting occasion, mixing beforehand without any trouble and mixing afterwards without any trouble. Congrats you have just described the majority of sporting occasions around the globe.

Try harder please.

Over 40,000 people in a stadium, highly charged atmosphere, in a final! Come on!

Were the fans segregrated, no.

So where else does it take place? and where would you find the craic or the atmosphere of a munster hurling final?

therecklessone

KnowItAll wrote:

Over 40,000 people in a stadium, highly charged atmosphere, in a final! Come on!

Were the fans segregrated, no.

So where else does it take place?

Ever been to a rugby match?

Basketball?

Tennis?

Numerous Irish soccer internationals?

Athletics?

Formula 1?

Golf?

therecklessone

KnowItAll wrote:

and where would you find the craic or the atmosphere of a munster hurling final?

The Millenium Stadium for a Welsh rugby match.

Any American Football match (AND they're allowed beer in the stadium...)

Swedish bandy matches.

Wibbs

Karl Hungus wrote:

We're not talking about Muslim countries, we are talking about our country and whether or not extremists should be tolerated in the intrests of political correctness. Even your comments, PHB, reek of that kind of attitude. Sure, even if they were only 20 years behind us, we shouldn't ignore the basic human rights of women, while we wait for modernization.

Poiltical correctness may very well be our downfall. Speaking of modernization, we may be in for a long wait. The laws in Islam concerning hijab(burqhas) as an example are pretty much set in stone. That's the problem they can't be changed, even if many moderate Muslims would welcome such change.

I found the article I was refering to previously, so click here to read it. /Dare I suggest that recent desecration and vandalization of Jewish property in Dublin is of any corelation?
I think I do dare!

Dead right you should dare. The article had some good points to make and what is happening in France also has mirrors in Holland and certain parts of Britain. I don't want it happening here, that's for damn sure. We as a state have to nip this kind of theological fascism in the bud before it gets a foothold.

BTW, did you note the part about the promotion of Mecca-cola and Muslim-up? http://www.mecca-cola.com/en/index.php
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-03/12/article05.shtml Now I'm all for freedom of choice and resistance to global branding, but it's a bit sinister. ""They also launched a website to promote their drink, describing it as a “drink for all who boycott the Zionist products and U.S. trademarks.”" That'll be the Jews then. It would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous. The pictures on the cola site with smiling girls covered from head to foot holding cans is a little dubious to say the least. The fact that they have a page of fatwas supporting the venture is even more so.

If a Munster hurling final(while doubtless laudable) is the only example KnowItall can find of Irish culture, we're up sh*t creek in a chicken wire canoe in the face of those with more definite cultural aims.