LUAS Network + Future Expansion

spacetweek · 18-05-2025 10:39AM

The case for Lucan Luas was always weak.

It is too close to Dart South West.
Many preferred routes have shared running with the red line which is already over capacity.
No clear path for it was left through Lucan suburbs despite these only being built in the 1990s. This was really unforgivable!
The train stations, including a new one at Kylemore, are being turned into Darts, and Busconnects is running new local routes to get you down to your nearest station. The preferred route that does not have shared running with the red line and instead goes through Inchicore village could be served instead with a new Dart station at Sarsfield Road.

What they could consider doing is just building the section from Adamstown to Kylemore Dart, and the City Centre part as a standalone piece.

OisinCooke · 18-05-2025 05:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123460984#Comment_123460984

I think it would be very remiss to build two seperate non-connected lines I don’t think they’ll do anything like that, that’d be quite senseless. At that stage you may as well at the very least connect the line from Kylemore to the Luas Red line at the very least, and from there you can easily get to the south city section.

Even if Lucan isn’t feasible, I think a line out to Kylemore DART, and even just from there to Liffey Valley via Ballyfermot, Chapelizod, and Palmerstown would be quite useful, with the new very large bus interchange station at Liffey Valley acting as a great onward travel point towards Lucan and the west.

The south city line (which is definitely needed) can’t be left as just that, a stub branch, it needs direct onward travel on at least one side, ideally both, even if only 8km out to Liffey Valley.

I could be wrong here but isn’t it technically possible to have regular (say, every 5 or so minutes only) trams from Lucan run on the canal section of the Red Line alongside existing trams from Tallaght?? It is largely grade separated and Red Line trams only have a rough capacity I believe of every 3-5 minutes anyway I believe… could Lucan trams be slotted in…?

I like the idea that other posters have mentioned above of running the Lucan Line down the current Red Line and the Red Line down the new south city line, to be built with longer 55m trams and platforms. It would be a less high capacity route for the Abbey Street line and the lower frequency of trams that Lucan would likely have in comparison to the Red Line, means that Connolly - Heuston shuttles could be added regularly in the gaps to keep city centre frequency high.

I do think however that a line down either of the quays, as proposed by a few posters earlier on, is not a great plan in my opinion, at least not at the moment. The catchment is too close to the Red Line’s, and doesn’t really add a lot of utility. Besides, the quays are our main bus spines through the city and there is nowhere possibly else you could send these busses. Having both direction lanes share just one of the quays while the Luas uses the other isn’t a feasible idea at all yet either with the bus throughput and frequency we have.

I do see this being something that might be done down the line, when far more of the radial bus routes are converted to Luas Lines. It is likely then, that most of the bus throughput can be left to one of the quays and the other can be for Luas and pedestrians - a kind of walking park along the Liffey even.

I just think that such a route along the quays is not feasible for Luas Lucan or indeed the next few projects for the next little while. A south city line would be much better and give much more connectivity while still increasing east-west capacity. The two ideal options I think would be one from James’s - Thomas St - Dame St- College Gn - Tara/Pearse Station - Ringsend, or one from Fatima - Cork St - Kevin St - Cuffe St - Stephen’s Gn - Ringsend or Irishtown. I think either - and possibly both, further down the line - would be great for the city as a whole.

spillit67 · 19-05-2025 10:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123445573#Comment_123445573

We could find it a blessing though that the Green Line runs basically the same City Centre route as Metrolink between Charlemount and O'Connell Street once that's open.

Surely that opens up more possibilities for shorter extensions in and around the city centre that can use this stretch and provide more City Core and more immediate places of interest (like say UCD) connectivity.

I know that the lack of upgrade of the Green Line south of Charlemount is an issue here though - given that really people coming further south than Charlemount won't have much incentive to switch from Luas to Metrolink unless they are going to the Mater / further north along Metrolink.

PlatformNine · 19-05-2025 09:36PM

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/parliamentary-questions/2025-q1-parliamentary-questions-responses-by-nta-bulletin-4/

The NTA PQ responses have just been published, and there is of course some mentions of Luas projects. Overall there isn't much new information. This includes confirming already known informaiton about Luas Lucan, Luas Cork, etc.

However there was an updated on Luas Bray on pages 58 and 254 (PDF page 59 and 255):

Luas Bray will not progress until a capacity enhancement study has been completed to ensure the Green Line has capacity for the added stations.
The Green Line capacity enhancement study will begin this year and expected to conclude next year.
it is therefore expected that an options assessment will begin sometime next year.

bk · 23-05-2025 05:04PM

I'm not sure if this is really the correct thread for it, but looks like Transdev is going to face competition from Alstom + ATM to operate and maintain the Luas from 2026. The Luas O&M contract is up next year and a consortium of Alstom + ATM have announced that they will compete for it:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2025/0520/1513825-luas-maintenance-contract/

Looks like the contract will include the extension to Finglas once opened.

Consonata · 24-05-2025 02:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123466070#Comment_123466070

Will Metro conversion be part of Green Line Enhancement study, or are we limited to "running so many trams that dunville ave will only be open for 90 seconds in every hour"

spacetweek · 24-05-2025 09:18AM

We can only hope. Same strategy should be employed on the Sandymount-Mount Merrion level crossing post-DART+.

PlatformNine · 24-05-2025 10:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123479741#Comment_123479741

I imagine it would be one of the options assessed, mind you the point of these studies is analyse multiple scenarios and develop a timeline for implementation. My guess is it at minimum it is going to look at "do nothing," "GL 30tph," and "metro upgrade" scenarios. I am hoping it will also consider looking at the UCD alignment scenarios as well. However I am wondering if this study is intended to be a counterpart to the metro-SW feasibility study, with added benifit of helping progress GL 30tph (which will be needed before the end of the decade and is a prerequisite for the metro upgrade) and Luas Bray.

KrisW1001 · 24-05-2025 01:36PM

I favour the idea of a new, UCD alignment, as that would greatly simplify upgrade of the existing GL to Metro in future.

spillit67 · 26-05-2025 10:17AM

Any scope to get the line down to Vincents / close to Sydney Parade DART station?

OisinCooke · 26-05-2025 01:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123486201#Comment_123486201

If that was to happen, I’d see it much more as part of an east-west line through the south city which hits Ringsend/Irishtown and turns south into Sandymount, maybe even with a stop near the AVIVA stadium and/or the Bord Gáis theatre.

The rerouting of the Green Line needs to be on a high capacity corridor, ie. the N11 Stillorgan Dual Carriageway. Stephens Green - Leeson Street - Morehampton Road - Donnybrook - UCD - Brewery Road - Central Park - Bridges Glen is a route that I see being the most viable.

Alternately the new line could spur off from after Harcourt Street, go down Adelaide Road and then join Morehampton Road from there but I feel that there might be opposition to that plan as a result of the amount of mature trees that would have to be removed off of Adelaide Road to make way for the OHLE. Unless, like Cork, Dublin was able to adopt no catenary sections of LUAS line for certain parts. Even still though Adelaide Road is a small residential street so may not be worth slowing the LUAS with small-street running and sharing with cars (both parked and moving) just to keep Harcourt Street on the main line.

A small bit of crayoning here, something like the line here in yellow could be the tail end of the Lucan/South City line, probably not extending nearly as far as I’ve drawn, but just to show the rough extent relative to @spillit67’s suggestion. I’ve drawn on the Red Line’s proposed extension to Poolbeg and the Glass Bottle site, and Metrolink too in blue for context.

I’ve also drawn the Green Line’s probable new alignment here in, well surprise surprise, green, with the Leeson Street routing from Stephen's Green in purple and the Adelaide Road routing from Harcourt Street shown in pink.

PlatformNine · 26-05-2025 02:37PM

While the UCD alignment wouldn't go that far east, I would be interested in seeing a Luas Dún Laoghaire which would assuming it goes along the B-spine and/or old tramway alignment.

There is no way it would take priority over any of the pre- and post-2042 Luas projects, but it is a long term project I think would be helpful to supplement the DART and partially replace the southern B-spine. It's how I am expecting Luas Lucan and Luas Blanch operate for the most part. They will serve as a better and higher capacity local connection than the buses would, while also feeding people into the DART network who are travelling further or going to CC.

I would also like to see Luas Howth to bring back the Howth tramways for similar reasons, however that is more of a pipe dream than anything else given how the H-spine is treated.

gjim · 26-05-2025 06:48PM

While the UCD alignment wouldn't go that far east, I would be interested in seeing a Luas Dún Laoghaire which would assuming it goes along the B-spine and/or old tramway alignment.
There is no way it would take priority over any of the pre- and post-2042 Luas projects, but it is a long term project I think would be helpful to supplement the DART and partially replace the southern B-spine.

Why not? An N11 Luas makes far more sense given the existing and ongoing densification along the route as well including major trip generators like UCD - than trying to serve a low density sprawling suburb like Lucan.

Van.Bosch · 26-05-2025 08:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123487154#Comment_123487154

what do you mean re: the H spine?

spillit67 · 27-05-2025 10:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123486800#Comment_123486800

I'm not sure about the usefulness of the Yellow extension. Engages Sandymount Stand but I don't see the demand being there for that and it's an around the houses route to Sydney Parade / Vincents. I much prefer going down Nutley and connecting with the N11 but I get that a spur like that would be counterproductive in some ways to capacity to a N11 route.

Whatever the means, I'd like to see the DART southside connected to the Luas so South East traffic could move west. Ideally we get a couple of orbital lines in time.

It is a pity really with the geography of Sydney Parade - Vincents - UCD - Eastern Bypass lands.

JPup · 27-05-2025 11:10AM

I think it's unlikely we will see any new lines between the Green lines and Dart in southeast Dublin any time soon. There is a much bigger gap to the west of the Green line as far as the Tallaght Luas stop that warrants attention first.

Politically I think it would be hard to justify more capital spending in the wealthiest part of the city that is already well-served by public transport options.

spillit67 · 27-05-2025 11:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123489704#Comment_123489704

This is an expansion thread.

Are you referring to significant capex of the 19th century that established the existing DART and Green Line alignments?

Reality is this - UCD is the biggest university in Ireland and won't be connected by rail. St Vincents is one of the most important hospitals in the country and will soon have maternity hospital covering much of the south east. The N11 is densifying quickly. Sandyford is Ireland's La Defense. Behind that you have new suburbs (Cherrywood) blowing out the capacity of the Green Line which is also impacting the whole south east of the country.

I am not against the SW (crickets on what is there that people want to get to mind you) getting another line before any N11 line (you realise there are wealthy areas there too btw) but it's clear why this would be a conversation.

Sam Russell · 27-05-2025 11:37AM

@OisinCooke

Your yellow crayon terminates at Sydney Parade. Have you ever been there? There is no place to terminate - and why there? St Vincent's Hospital is just the other side of the Dart line. There were plans to close Merrion Gates and put in a bridge through the church carpark connecting Merrion Road with Strand Road.

A more useful extension would be to take your short pink segment along Adelaide Road along by the Canal to GCD and further into Ringsend. While you are using the pink crayon, take it back along the South Circular Road to Dolphin's Barn and connect to the Red Line. This gives the possibility of a major network of routes feeding trip generators and PT connections.

The Grand Canal route (alongside) would be a great E-W route giving a relief to the city centre.

PlatformNine · 27-05-2025 12:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123488019#Comment_123488019

To clarify the UCD alignment is the N11 alignment and is part of Luas post-2042 and if I had to guess going to be needed sooner than later due to space constraints on the N11 corridor. The alignment I was referring to not taking priority is Luas DL which wouldn't run along the N11, but further east on the R118 and eventually N31, as the B-spine will and as did the old tramways to Dún Laoghaire.

My main reasoning for it not taking priority over most of the other tramlines is simply because how much some of the other lines' bus routes are bursting at the seems. Knocklyon and Clongriffin have a number of very high frequency buses, Particularly the 15s. The UCD alignment is the same and given the university it is probably going to grow evening quicker than some of the other alignments will.

Balgriffin and Blanch I am hoping will be tamed by ML(indirectly freeing up A-spine buses) and D+ for a while, however they will be needed eventually too. Clondalkin and Kimmage I am a bit unsure about, however at the very least I think it would take priority over Luas DL. Especially Clondalkin as it seems development is starting to pickup more in the area.

Lucan I don't disagree with, I think the plan hasn't aged as well but I think it should above all for three reasons. One is that development is starting to pickup in the area, particularly around Adamstown where the alignment is expected to go. It may not be as usefull for commuting considering it should connect to 2 DART stations, but it could massively reduce the number of car journies to Liffey Valley SC, and help better connect that area with the DART lines. Second it would help relieve two spines, the C and G which could free a lot of resources to be sent else where. Then third is that with how long they have been working on it, just get it built so we can move on to other projects.

PlatformNine · 27-05-2025 01:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123488331#Comment_123488331

It is just the lowest capacity spine. It has the lowest frequency of any of the spines, the demand was so low that the extra peak-time route (H9) was cancelled. It is the only spine that doesn't continue through CC. And my largest gripe with the spine is it is the only spine that doesn't operate 24hr.

This also isn't because it is a bad spine, it was just because it was the first spine so it was a test run to see if or how much they would anger commuters and residents. The demand probably has more to do with it being along the DART line than anything else, meaning it would primarily be used to funnel people into the DART or for shorter local trips.

Also none of this is bad, its actually really good because it means that the corridor isn't reliant on buses. But in this case it also does mean it is unlikely for the Howth trams to be brought back anytime soon.

gjim · 27-05-2025 01:39PM

To clarify the UCD alignment is the N11 alignment and is part of Luas post-2042 and if I had to guess going to be needed sooner than later due to space constraints on the N11 corridor. The alignment I was referring to not taking priority is Luas DL which wouldn't run along the N11, but further east on the R118 and eventually N31, as the B-spine will and as did the old tramways to Dún Laoghaire.

Fair enough.

Lucan I don't disagree with, I think the plan hasn't aged as well but I think it should above all for three reasons. One is that development is starting to pickup in the area, particularly around Adamstown where the alignment is expected to go.

It has aged like sour milk.

Adamstown is being built around a DART station which will have a completely segregated alignment with DART+ - Connolly, GCD, etc. will be under 40minutes. The proposed Luas will offer far poorer journey times for most trips to the core of the city. It won't even be competitive with the bus for central locations like O'Connell St. What's the point of all this investment in DART+, if we're going to proceed with a plan dreamt up decades ago in a context where commuter rail was poor or non-existent in these areas.

There are no big volume trip generators on the outer section of the proposed Lucan route. Thus you will have packed trams inbound in the morning while most outbound trams at the time will be almost empty and then vice versa in the evenings - effectively delivering half the utility of a line that offers a better distribution of useful journeys.

At the other end, by omitting the central section (the current proposal AFAIK is to swing around the centre, depositing commuters at Charlemont), it becomes a pure commuter service and offers nothing to relieve the pressure in the centre and will be only of use to Lucan residents.

bk · 27-05-2025 02:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490362#Comment_123490362

At the other end, by omitting the central section (the current proposal AFAIK is to swing around the centre, depositing commuters at Charlemont), it becomes a pure commuter service and offers nothing to relieve the pressure in the centre and will be only of use to Lucan residents.

Just on this bit, I believe the route is being looked at again and might end up looking quiet different from previous studies.

Unfortunately I think we will just have to wait and see what comes out of this study and the updated NDP.

OisinCooke · 27-05-2025 05:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123489850#Comment_123489850

Sam I completely agree, the only reason I extended the line so far was just to address the point brought up by @spillit67 earlier on about the Luas potentially extending as far as there. It is not feasible now but may be much down the proverbial line once most of the LUAS 2042+ plan has been implemented.

I agree also that the N11 Luas line could take the purple alignment down Stephen’s Green South and Leeson St, this is a much better suggestion, with the yellow line using the pink alignment to hit Mespil Road after Adelaide Road and continue out only as far as Ringsend, to link with the Red Line’s Poolbeg extension, maybe onwards to Glass Bottle but I firmly believe that Luas is not the right fit for the Strand Road in Sandymount.

I think it will be a long time until Vincent’s gets a direct LUAS (aside from the N11 and DART), but I do agree with @spillit67 again about the ideal nature of an orbital line between the likes of Sydney Parade - Vincents - UCD - Eastern Bypass. I feel that Vincents will not get a place on a spinal route for the next long while though, simply by the nature of the area and the closeness to other transport spines.

Catchment wise, in the next good few years there is only room for only one more LUAS spinal route between the current GL and the DART (just in terms of prioritising equal LUAS roll-out to all of Dublin), but maybe in future, once much more lines have been built, is there scope for a line down that neck of the woods, but for now more places need attention I feel.

@samrussell with regard to your ideas about sending my pink section heading towards Dolphin’s Barn, I generally agree, my thoughts for that would be that the yellow line (likely using the pink segment to get from Stephen’s Green to Ringsend) would head back along Cuffe Street, Kevin Street, St Luke’s Ave, Cork Street, before linking into the Red Line at Fatima. I feel this would provide more useful utility than going along the canal, where density is lower. This could either hit the Red Line and follow it, or branch south towards Kimmage.

PlatformNine · 27-05-2025 06:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490362#Comment_123490362

I think there are a lot more trip generators than you think.

For commuting I don't expect it to compete with the DARTs directly, but it will funnel people from Lucan into the Adamstown station so they can get the DART into town. Same with a Ballyfermont/Kylemore Road station, funnelling people from Ballyfermont and hopefully also Liffey Valley into the station. And of course it will help cut down on some of the spines. Other than night service it might almost completely replace the G2 and C1 or C2, not to mention taking a good chunk of the remainder of the C and G spine.

For local journies I think you are underestimating the amount of trip generators. Liffey Valley SC, Fonthill retail park, Balleyfermont primary care centre, Cherry Orchard hostpital, too many parks to list, it very much adds up and I can see why they are still looking at it.

And as for Adamstown, yes it wouldn't make much sense for someone commuting into CC to use the tram since the station would be very close. But for people who may be looking to go to other local locations yes it would make a large difference. If you want to go to the park or Liffey Valley SC it would be a much better trip than using the buses.

In a different timeline they would have been working on Luas Knocklyon or UCD. However its been being worked on for so long now, and especially with CBC Liffey Valley getting built first, I just want to see it get done! I am also hoping it will be a big push for the Ballyfermont DART station.

PlatformNine · 27-05-2025 06:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490465#Comment_123490465

oh I really hope so. My main gripes with the previous options where the shared red line sections, the shared green line terminus at SSG (for the Cork Street option), and that it ended in CC. Overall I think the route was good but especially with the amount of trams on the Red and Green lines I dont think that was a good plan. And would hope TII now know better than to terminate a line in CC.

I don't think finding an independent alignment will be that large of an issue, however I could see terminating somewhere else bringing some trouble. I like the Ringsend option, but crossing the DART line may prove to be difficult. If they pick the Cork Street option it will either have to cross at Westland Row or one of the bridges further east. Westland Row is just barely tall enough but is going to be very congested. And the highest bridge between Westland Row and Lansdowne Road (without curved sides) is UBR61 on Bath Ave/R111 and it still would need an ~~extra 1-1.1m of clearence~~.(I made a mistake, I read the OHLE safety clearence height not the bridge height. This is a bit more difficult to find, but I believe it would need be at least 6m tall or an extra 2.1m of clearence)

blanch152 · 27-05-2025 07:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491429#Comment_123491429

If it went down Thomas St and Dame Street and along Pearse St, would the 5.02m clearance be enough?

OisinCooke · 27-05-2025 09:07PM

In terms of the Bath Ave road bridge, is there a way to lower the catenary height of the LUAS temporarily…? I know that DART does this in places - the wires and pantograph which are usually very low and close to the roof of the train get a LUAS style double-height separation at a few of the level crossings between Lansdowne and Booterstown… could the opposite happen and the LUAS be slightly lowered, along with a slight road surface lowering, to make the difference?

Alternatively or in tandem with this, could the rail bridge be replaced for a more sleek low profile version with more clearance? I think Bath Ave is a nice alignment into Ringsend/Irishtown for a south city LUAS line, with added connections to the Aviva Stadium too. Is it feasible do you think?

bk · 27-05-2025 09:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491768#Comment_123491768

You could put batteries (Supercapactors also an option like Seville) in the Luas like is being planned for Cork Luas, so it could operate without OHLE through this section if necessary.

PlatformNine · 27-05-2025 09:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491493#Comment_123491493

Yes but the congestion issues would be even worse. Westland Row would just be crossing the Green line once, likely around SSG. However to cross their would mean going through CG which is already going to become infeasible with CG plaza, but also would just be even worse.

Honestly it might just become an inevitable upgrade. When/if the LCs get closed because of D+ there are going to be a lot less places for buses to cross, and the S2 and L13 will more than likely need to be rerouted. These bridges I believe are one of if not the only reason the O needs the single deck buses. It may also become needed with all the development happening in Ringsend to allow better PT access.

bk · 27-05-2025 09:37PM

BTW our Luas are apparently 3.27m high (at least the original 30/40m ones). I'm not sure how much height above is required for OHLE, but worst case scenario Pearse St should be fine with batteries. Bath Avenue might be tight.

Interesting doc with the specs of the original Dublin Luas trams:

https://www.trampicturebook.de/tram/download/alstom/CITADIS_Dublin_en.pdf

Note the number of passengers measured as "5 pass./m2", Alstom now use "4 pass./m2" is spec sheets for newer trams. Thus the confusing total passenger number differences between the original 40m trams and the upgraded 55m trams, the figures given in the press are using different measurements.

LUAS Network + Future Expansion

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