LUAS Network + Future Expansion

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123445541#Comment_123445541

The section of it that is imperative I think is the alternative city east west city centre section in order to take pressure off the Red Line from James to the Point.

Yeah, I'd love to see a second East/West central tram line. I'd back the Lucan Luas (despite my reservations about trying to serve a huge low density suburb with a tram) if it included a South inner city section say from the planned Hueston West DART station to Irishtown (via James/Dame/Pearse st say) but the last time an "illustrative" route for a Lucan Luas was published, had it skirt the centre of the city and terminate in Charlemont basically providing no extra capacity into the central core of the city. This would actually mean slower journey times than existing bus services if you want to get to somewhere central. It seems the criteria was to find the lowest cost/km for new Luas track with little consideration for the utility added to the overall system - if the same approach had been used in the past, we have the Red Luas terminating in Heuston.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123445696#Comment_123445696

I’m sorry but that is simply not true! I’m specifically talking about modern French style Alstom LRT trams built in the last 30 years, like Luas. The vast majority of these modern trams use road space and run on roads. I can literally list out dozens of projects built in the last 30 years around Europe that do so! It is literally the whole point of such systems.

Just to be clear, they won’t be sharing with cars, they will be using bus lanes.

But let me ask you this, go look at the Luas 2050 vision, how would you build any of those routes on dedicated right of way? And if you can’t, are you really suggesting that we just leave them as bus routes?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446211#Comment_123446211

Personally I like the idea of routing it down the quays. Given the success of the bus gates on the quays, I feel it is ripe to add a Luas line there.

Perhaps instead redirect the Red line trams down the quays and Lucan ones via Abbey Street. Build the new quay Luas stops with 55m platforms, so that the Red line could be upgraded to run 55m trams, thus increasing capacity on that line. I believe the rest of the Red line has plenty of space for 55m trams, it is the city center section along Abbey Street where it is constrained to 40m platforms, running via the quays would fix that.

riddlinrussell

If you want to look at the "indended" use of LRTs Croydon wouldn't be the measuring stick.

The French pioneered the modern tram system and its use in smaller French cities should be the blueprint for future lines.

FYI I'd broadly agree that trams shouldn't share with private cars beyond maybe some access ways, definitely not thoroughfares. But I don't think that full segregation is needed for an effective service and indeed isn't really the LRTs wheelhouse, elsewhere the Red and Green lines would probably be considered Tram-Train hybrid services.

Build trams in bus/tram lanes that taxis aren't allowed to use, that are genuinely enforced, and that have stepped in bus stops to allow overtaking of buses and you'd find it would do its intended job well.

KrisW1001

Rather than the whole "Lucan" Luas, maybe just build the bit of it that lies in the city centre? There seems to be universal agreement that this would significantly reduce traffic in the centre, and it would take pressure of the Red Line too. I'd suggest approaching via Inchicore, passing Heuston (Red Line) , South Quays, Dame St, (Green Line) , Pearse St ( DART) , Ringsend, then either across the river into the Docklands or Connolly (both Red), or south to cross DART a second time and head for the canal.

A resurrection of the old "Metro West" as LRT (which is basically what it was) on a well-segregated line running Blanchardstown-Lucan-Tallaght and acting as a branch/connector for DART W and SW might be a better way to handle these sparse suburbs than a direct in/out line. (Helsinki's new orbital Jokeri tramline is the inspiration here)

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446348#Comment_123446348

I think we're confusing terminology. For clarification, I think an alignment where the Trams run along/on road ways similar to what was done from Sandyford-Brides Glen and in parts of Tallaght I think is entirely appropriate and good.

In Paris, they have their trams taking the central median or running to the side of roadways. However what I mean by a dedicated right of way is that they have full priority in these lanes. If it has to be shared with buses, so be it, but absolutely we should not be designing tramways which have to share lanes with cars.

Most modern tramways are designed exactly like this, in Croydon, in Paris, they largely have full priority.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446585#Comment_123446585

Oh, I agree completely that the trams should have right of way and not share with cars [1] I don't think any of us are seriously suggesting that cars can use these lines!

[1] Obviously some cars will have to cross the tracks to access house parking, side streets, etc. That even happens on the red line.

For the future Luas lines in Dublin, they will likely be built on bus lanes, both the current QBC's and future BusConnects lanes. It is really the only space available for these routes.

They will have to share with buses, but there will be less buses anyway as many (but not all) will be replaced by Luas. Cars are already banned from bus lanes anyway, though obviously enforcement needs to be greatly improved, automated cameras, etc.

BusConnects is meant to build bike lanes which should take bikes out of the bus lanes/future Luas lines, though I question if some of the bus connects plans have good enough cycle lanes to really achieve that, so that might need to be revisited with new Luas lines.

These lines will end up better then buses, but a step down from the Green and Red line, which are more pre-metro or tram-train on the southern sections. But what I'm suggesting is completely normal for modern LRT in Europe.

BTW This is what parts of Croydon Tramway look like:

I see it riding on normal, narrow Dublin looking streets with cars on the same road! Though yes I do know other parts running on a former railway line, etc.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446448#Comment_123446448

I'd ask, where would your line start on the West?

Do you expect C buses coming from Lucan to terminate at this Luas stop and transfer onto Luas there? Or do you think the people of Lucan would be outraged by that and demand that their C buses continue into the City center, specially given how much the quays have improved them?

If people refuse to transfer and continue to demand and use buses into the city center, do you think this line would have enough passengers to justify a CBA?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support more lines and capacity in the city center. But I think they need to be part of projects that extend into the suburbs.

I really don't get the logic of short lines like this. I don't see it gaining public support and would struggle to justify themselves.

BTW I agree with your routing on the South quays, sounds great. And I'm not really arguing the above strongly, I'm open to the idea, but struggling to see it.

And yes, I fully support a resurrection on Metro West. BTW Copenhagen just opened it's first LRT line (after closing their old fashioned tram network in the 70's) and it is an orbital line just like MW was designed to be.

Consonata

I don't love Luas Lucan as a project as it seems like it would impact fairly significantly the frequencies which Tallaght and Saggart currently have at the moment. To get decent frequencies to Lucan to make it worth while you probably would have to halve the existing frequencies coming from Tallaght, unless you have Lucan Luases terminate somewhere along the canal stretch.

I kind of prefer Metro West as a project for that reason, as we can maintain high frequency radial routes, with an orbital line stitching them all together.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446754#Comment_123446754

To be fair I think there's a lot of the C spine that it wouldn't actually replace. Pretty much all of the stops inside the M50 (the Palmerstown stops being the only busy ones there really), as well as the C3 and C4 routes through Lucan village and on to Leixlip and Maynooth won't really be substituted at all. It's the areas served by the C1 and C2 routes through suburban Lucan to the South of the N4 that will really see the benefit. I reckon the Luas will not actually be any faster at getting in to town from those areas so maybe lots of people will stick with the bus anyway.

I think actually when it comes down to it the G spine through Ballyfermot, Cherry Orchard and on to Liffey Valley would actually see the biggest displacement. The G spine is pretty slow as well so the Luas would probably be a fair faster. Because of this I think it definitely makes sense to build as far as Liffey Valley at least but at that stage I guess why not just do the whole shebang.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123444575#Comment_123444575

There's also a massive shortage of engineers with rail experience and there's massive resource heavy projects such as the DART+ suite plus all the other IÉ projects on the go.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446754#Comment_123446754

Heh... you spotted the flaw in my handy-wavey "design". Honestly, I've no idea.. Wherever the start was would also need space for a depot nearby, something that would be prohibitive in the city centre.

As I'm making things up as I write, I'd also love to see a Luas line through Phoenix Park, to serve Dublin Zoo (one of the largest visitor attractions in the state) on its way to Lucan (or just the Western DART line), perhaps? Come out the southeasten end of the park to the river, cross Heuston Bridge alongside Red line, stop at the train station and Red Line, then swing east around the back of the Guinness site to resume a route along the South quays.

All of this is without any reference to an actual map.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447060#Comment_123447060

Any line in the Park would have to run along the perimeter to get any support.

One possibility is a spur from Parkgate Street to the Zoo, continuing along that side of the Park, exiting at Ashtown Gate, using the Castleknock Bypass but turning North at the Auburn Avenue junction to serve the planned Dunsink development, before crossing the M50 to Abbotstown, Ballycoolin and Tyrellstown.

In the city centre, this line could use the existing Red line, while Luas Lucan continues down the South Quays, and the existing Red Line uses Dame St.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446828#Comment_123446828

Oh, I agree completely, I don't think you can just plug a Lucan Luas into the Red line, it is already far too overcapacity!

I'd prefer to see a new line built down the quays, that to take over the Red line (and upgrade it), while Lucan Luas goes down the existing Red line route on Abbey street (40m trams would likely be fine for Lucan). I like Kris's route on the South quays.

Alternatively one of the other two proposed routes further South.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446894#Comment_123446894

Yes, you are right, I was generalising saying the C route. A Lucan Luas would eliminate some C routes and the G, but not all.

It is a good example of what I think the future Luas lines will be like. They will eliminate many bus routes, but not all and the remaining ones will likely share space with the Luas.

BTW I took a look on Google Maps at the proposed locations for the Luas stops around Lucan and they look pretty decent to me. Basically the majority of the Lucan suburbs would be within a 10 minute walk of a Luas stop. I think that would be quiet popular.

It largely avoids the rail line, there is some overlap of course, but the rail line is more serving new transport oriented developments like Adamstown, rather then the more traditional areas.

However if someone ones to argue that the area is already getting enough investment with DART+ and that we should focus on other areas of the city for the next Luas lines, I'd think that is fair enoguh. But I'd argue that eventually a Lucan Luas line would still make eventual sense, even if not a priority.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447060#Comment_123447060

I'd love a Luas line through the park. But I'd think it would more sense as the line heading towards Catleknock and Blanchardstown.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447086#Comment_123447086

Any line in the Park would have to run along the perimeter to get any support.

Why do you say that? Opposition from the OPW?

I suppose you could rightfully argue routing it through the park reduces the homes it could serve.

Though I think it would be great to reduce cars in the park with a quiet, electric tram. But the OPW seem to have little interest in doing pro-environmental things. The N2 really should be going through the park.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447184#Comment_123447184

Yes, the OPW have a very negative approach to changes in the Park. However, running it along the North Road is the least intrusive way and would also serve the Zoo.

PlatformNine

New information about Luas Lucan, the preferred route is supposed to be announced in Q1 2026, and of course there will be public consultation.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2025-05-14/3/#s6

Personally I am hoping that the emerging route wont be one that terminates at SSG or uses the red line alignment, though it would depend on how much they are willing to stray from the feasibility study.

tom1ie

Here’s a crazy idea- just skip public consultation and go straight to RO with ABP and see how it bothers people then.

Make the appropriate changes at that stage and avoid JR

The quick fire way of getting from A to B in Irelands planning system.
(warning- this may not work).

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123449029#Comment_123449029

This is a fantastic idea. They should try it out. I'd put money on it being at least as quick....

oliver_murray

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123449029#Comment_123449029

Public consultation is a statutory process. Skipping it would be giving a 100% guarantee of a Judicial review..

Brightlights66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123439490#Comment_123439490

There may well be merit in creating such a station at Ballybough. There is certainly a long gap between Drumcondra and Connolly, and you wouldn't think it would require great ingenuity to build one.

I don't think it should be either/or.

The issue with Drumcondra is that there is a long-term plan to build a North-South City LUAS between the city and Balgriffin through there. This will cross two East-West rail lines - probably DARTs at that stage, which are in close proximity to each other.

At present, the current Drumcondra station handles much of the traffic, but the throughput is only going to increase on the rail lines in that area. The plan, as I understand it, is that there will be around 6 trains per hour to/from each of Hazelhatch, Maynooth and Dunboyne - at peak times, anyway. 18 in total, but only likely to increase.

With long-distance Sligo/Longford trains in the mix at that location (along with the Connolly situation) you should surely be looking at, in 2040, at least 6 trains per hour at peak times using the Midland Line through Drumcondra.

It is important to stress that there would be no duplication: nobody would be using stations at Drumcondra to change between the DART services in that area - they can, for example, do that at Glasnevin Junction, under the current plans - but many people on the proposed Balgriffin LUAS would surely use it to access the different services offered by the lines either end of their LUAS, and many DART passengers at either end would like to use the services of the City-Balgriffin LUAS.

riddlinrussell

Wouldn't anyone wanting to get on the Balgriffin luas from a Dart just stay on their DART from Glasnevin Junction/change at Glasnevin junction to get on a Drumcondra Dart? Or walk if there wasn't one soon enough for them? Google has it as an 11 minute walk to/from the probable luas station at Drumcondra to the Junction station entrances.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123452754#Comment_123452754

Again, I repeat, most DART+ services will be going via Drumcondra station and all destinations will be accessible from Drumcondra station at roughly a 10 minute frequency.

As for Sligo/Longford trains, the plan per the AIRR is to route them to Heuston Station via a new rail line connecting the two lines.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454053#Comment_123454053

If the new route for the sligo trains happens you are looking at least 20 years before it happens. Could the sligo/longford/mullingar trains not be sent to docklands?

As for new luas lines most of the metro west route is still intact and crosses to main rail lines. Could this be a viable route or would it be to long for a luas?

JPup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123449029#Comment_123449029

There would be no particular benefit of fast-forwarding the project at this stage. Realistically, Lucan Luas won't start construction until after the Metro, Dart+, Busconnects, Luas Finglas and probably Luas Poolbeg are completed. i.e. at least 10 years from now.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454145#Comment_123454145

First of all the OP was mentioning 2040, so I'd assume we will be getting close to that line by then. The OP is talking about a Balgriffin Luas line, which wouldn't exist until around then anyway. But really this topic isn't about Luas, as you could also ask about buses on the Swords road today, really this is just the OP's hobby horse.

But it is a great question, until then Sligo trains will be able to use either line and thus either routed into the new Spencer Dock station or into Connolly.

The DART+ don't really say for certain, but some of the modelling they show seems to suggest routing Sligo trains into Connolly, which would mean they'd have to go by Drumcondra station. But that is just modelling, of course no guarantee of that.

If that comes to be the case and you specifically want to go to Spencer Dock, then it would make sense to change at the new Glasnevin station for Spencer Dock bound DART+ trains.

BTW I say Spencer Dock as it is likely to replace the existing Docklands station, though it will still exist, I wouldn't expect it to be used much if at all.

As for new luas lines most of the metro west route is still intact and crosses to main rail lines. Could this be a viable route or would it be to long for a luas?

Absolutely. They have just opened an orbital line like this in Copenhagen using LRT/Luas. LRT is frequently used for such orbital type services.

Interestingly Alstom now make a version of their LRT trams that can go up to 100km/h, the Citadis Dualis. They have a more Metro like interior. They are really starting to blur the lines between LRT trams and light Metro. Might be perfect for a line like this.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454053#Comment_123454053

This should be a priority.

Huge money going into DART+ and this needs to go with it.

If we can’t build about 6km of track across countryside handily enough, we’re doomed.

OisinCooke

Where do we think a Luas Balgriffin will go after the CC…? I think pas experience has (or should have) shown that terminating rapid transit in the city centre is a bad plan but at the moment there’s not really any other route it can take…

I presume it would cut the city core and head south for Kimmage or Terenure…? In an ideal world wherever it doesn’t go can be served by the Amiens St - Clongriffin line that’s also planned?

There’s not a lot of north-south paths a tram can take though is the only issue. Broadstone - Constitution Hill - Church Street - Liffey - Christchurch - Patrick Street - New Street and southwards from there seems like a pretty nice spine which looks to have space for trams. There’s line from Balgriffin would intersect it at a comfortable looking angle from North King Street so this could be idea, with the line continuing to Kimmage from here…? Any thoughts?

Brightlights66

I like the idea, though Bridge Street would, I'm pretty sure, be a problem for any route between Church Street and Christchurch, as the gradient there is well beyond that on Steeven's Lane, on the Red Line. That, I remember reading, was close to the limit of the trams then.

Two possibilities spring to mind: (i) a nice elegant bridge sweeping across the river between Church Street and near the top of Bridge Street, cutting out much of the gradient, and removing the suggested LUAS from several road junctions; and (ii) building a 500m (or so) tunnel between Bridge Street and Patrick Street, so that the LUAS would (heading south) enter on Bridge Street and exit on Patrick Street to head on to Kimmage or some other location.

A problem with option (ii) is that, while a seemingly sensible transport option by cutting out both slopes on the Christchurch Hill it is very likely to unearth a whole load of archaeological stuff which the city would probably prefer not to ever know about, or ever deal with. The main problem with option (i) is the Aesthetics Police.

spacetweek

If you were familiar with the area you’d know that a bridge is impossible to build and a tunnel has no space for the portals so it would have to be single track at most.

As for Balgriffin to Amiens Street line, I think this should follow the Luas red line around Beresford Place before crossing the river and heading south on Tara St until it hits Trinity, then heading east on Pearse Street as far as Ringsend. It would not interline with the green line but would pass very close to it near College Green allowing transfers.