LUAS Network + Future Expansion

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884784#Comment_123884784

Light rail down highways sounds great, but you’re trading travel speed for accessibility…and usefulness. In practice, you are either forcing passengers under or over a stream of busy car traffic to reach the stops, which are by definition located far away from where people want them to be. American cities do this, especially in the West, and it’s not a good solution at all: even when imagine it with our much lower crime rates, it would still be unpleasant to access the stations via overpass or underpasses.

A variation of this scheme to divert off the road corridor for the stops, but this can be slower overall than just finding a quiet street and making it tram only.

The big win of underground rail is that you get the best of both worlds: you can segregate the path for speed, and still have the stops where they need to be. I think Luas should remain as a tram service, as a collector and distributor from DART and Metro, rather than try to be a light rail with on-street sections.

bk

There are already some fully automated trams running in busy city streets. Moscow (I know!) has a line running on the streets fully automated.

For now it is level GoA3, which means there is still a driver in the cab, though they are often seen reading books! They are aiming for GoA4 level, no driver at all by 2027 and what 90% of the their trams to be fully driverless by 2035!

Given that Metrolink is probably 10 years off from completion and an extension to Bray would be well beyond that, I feel it might well be possible to operate fully automated and driverless say 15 years from now.

There are already fully automated cars with no drivers driving the streets of US cities. By comparison, fully automated trams and trains should be much easier, given their on rails and given the expense of the vehicles, much easier to justify the cost of multiple lidar radars instead of less capable optical systems.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884994#Comment_123884994

There’s another option, half-way between manual and fully automated, which is to remotely supervise the vehicle, and then take control, again remotely, to guide it through street sections under remote control. German company Vay uses this kind of technology to operate a pilot “tele-driven” taxi service in San Francisco using cars, but the same technology can apply to buses or rail vehicles too.

This is a far more feasible idea than the tech-bro idea of full AI-controlled driving (which is, ultimately, like all ideas from the Valley, only about reducing their labour costs to zero to increase margins, rather than any belief in superior safety).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123885072#Comment_123885072

Very true, such tele-presence operations would make a lot of sense for a service like this, given that most of the line wouldn't need a driver.

You could also take a hybrid approach, mostly automated, but very conservative operation, with hand over to the tele-presence operator if it faced anything too tricky.

Having said that, I don't see why fully automated would be particularly difficult, I know companies love to use the AI term on everything now, but this is really not that much "AI" involved. You are running on tracks, on a well defined route, with signals and just lidar up front looking for people or other blockages on the track ahead.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884798#Comment_123884798

I think that would be a fairly trivial delay that could happen at the last stop before the automated section ends. Drivers change on metro systems already all the time. I think the benefits of full automation along the vast bulk of the route would probably more than compensate for any lost time during a "handover".

But it's a side note really. It will only even be possible if the alignment if grade separated. It would be a mistake to have at grade crossings at all the junctions like the red line on the R110 (those red line junctions should be grade separated too IMO).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123885211#Comment_123885211

The one issue with having a driver like that, is that you might need to have an actual cab, which reduces passenger space. The Copenhagen trams don't have a cab, passengers can sit up front where the driver would, which is very popular with kids. There are manual controls hidden behind a panel if needed, but I don't think such a setup would be suitable for this type of regular operation.

On grade separation, while it would be ideal, strictly speaking there is no reason why a Metro can't operate across no grade separated junctions or even street running if need be. A version of the whole city train thing you see in Germany. Though it would require higher platforms at stations.

I'd assume for the service extended to Bray it would be at a reduced frequency versus the fully automated section further North. Maybe a train every 5 minutes, rather then 90 seconds, gives you some buffer to make up for delays, etc.

Of course full grade separation would be preferable, I'm just playing devils advocate.

murphaph

I think it's fairly unlikely that they would go for grade separation but I think it would be a big error because I think the only realistic option for grade separation at most of those junctions is an underpass where the tram dips under the junction and retrofitting a dip under is a lot more difficult than adding a flyover. I don't think a bunch of overpasses will fly with the residents, but who knows, they did build overpasses for the extension to Cherrywood….but there are probably more lawyers living along the N11 corridor ;-)

Yeah if hybrid working was contemplated, a full cab would definitely have to be fitted. The driver couldn't safely operate the tram in revenue service from within the passenger compartment like they do when shunting in yards. But I think it's worth looking at as the cost of labour is one of the big items of current expenditure and in the event of industrial action you could at least provide a skeleton service.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883867#Comment_123883867

I think they should reclaim the old Harcourt line alignment, and turn Leopardstown race course into housing. The alignment is nearly perfectly preserved, and the spur from Sandyford to Brides Glen could be attached to a future N11 Luas line instead.

Something along the lines of this

spillit67

Foxrock is a ghost town. Appreciate the dream of getting rid of the racecourse (I’d agree) but won’t happen. The existing LDA plans are served well enough by the existing line, so long as the overall Sandyford connection is given an upgrade.

tom1ie

The kimmage knocklyon and Clondalkin LUAS lines are probably the most beneficial projects that should happen after the Finglas and Docklands (glass bottle factory site?) spurs are built.
Lucan already sits between two heavy rail line stations that QBC bus services could be run to plus a QBC on the N4 pretty much all the way into the CC.

Clondalkin, Knocklyon and the kimmage terenure templeogue rathfarnham areas have very poor PT in comparison.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123887126#Comment_123887126

This satisfies my OCD nicely. I like it. Who owns the racecourse? It would be rezoned residential/mixed use in a heartbeat so it must be worth an absolute fortune. It wouldn't be the first horse or dog racing track in Dublin to fall to development ;-)

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123888838#Comment_123888838

I still hope that Kimmage etc. will hopefully be served by a tunneled metro line. The options for light rail are really poor along that axis. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The density will follow in time. Tallaght is already worthy of a metro line connection to the city IMO.

spacetweek

I hadn’t even thought before that they could extend Luas from Cherrywood to Woodbrook instead of Bray, it would certainly be much easier but there is almost nothing in Woodbrook and the Dart station is surrounded by a golf course and cemetery.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889527#Comment_123889527

Well, it's the interchange with the DART station that's important to provide a whole bunch of journey options that wouldn't exist without going there. It doesn't really matter if the station is surrounded by fields. Commuting from Greystones to Sandyford or Dundrum or Charlemont would be a breeze with the interchange to metro there, without it a pain.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889474#Comment_123889474

100% agree.
There’s no room for a LUAS but the kimmage corridor needs to be looked at as does knocklyon.
Clondalkin is probably suitable for a LUAS though?

OisinCooke

I think that a metro suits the SW quite a lot, ideally with a Liberties - Dolphins Barn - Crumlin - Kimmage - Greenhills (huge opportunity for new high density development) - Tallaght - Springfield (…?) kind of route.

I think after the Knocklyon/Templeogue BC corridor, a Luas Line should take over here, sheerly from a modal-mix perspective - west to east you’d have Luas Lucan (light rail), DART SW (heavy), Red Line (light), Metro SW (heavy), Luas Knocklyon (light), Metrolink GL Sandyford (heavy) Green Line N11 (light), and DART S (heavy). Combined with an orbital line as well as all the existing S busses, everywhere would have the choice of light or heavy rail at a very easy interchange.

However I understand there are huge space constraints, and I don’t know the Harold’s X - Terenure - Rathfarnham - Knocklyon corridor, or the associated BC plan very well. Is there full separation bus lanes planned for this route? In a perfect world, we’d have a metro line to Sandyford, Knocklyon, and Tallaght via Kimmage, with respective coverage on the northside, but realistically, I can only see maybe one more line.

On the northside this will almost for sure take the proposed Luas Balgriffin route, but on the south, which of the routes - Knocklyon or Kimmage - would be better for a metro and which for a Luas?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889693#Comment_123889693

There won’t be complete separation on the terenure Rathfarnham Rathmiles BC route so a LUAS won’t work as there’s just no space.
A metro on that route is really the only answer.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889527#Comment_123889527

Not getting to Bray would really reduce the usefulness of the project.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889474#Comment_123889474

Not a hope it will be a Metro in our lifetime, it will never get by a CBA. If they could get some cut and cover in parts to reduce times then maybe.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889527#Comment_123889527

Well, the Woodbrook site is the centre of a large development at the moment. I have no idea what is being built, but it looks like a multi-story commercial development.

They did not open a new station for a golf course and a cemetery.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889847#Comment_123889847

Well the status quo can’t remain and there’s no room for LUAS so by the process of elimination……….

Thunder87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889992#Comment_123889992

It's a large residential development with plenty of mid rise apartment blocks and I think 1400 units, there's another large LDA development next door in Shanganagh as well but not much space for a whole lot else unless the golf club sells up

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123890108#Comment_123890108

It can remain because the bus for most people and geographies will remain the option for most Dubliners despite Metrolink, DART+, Luas Finglas etc. Even in cities with more like 75% rail transit like Munich, many geographies rely on the bus.

Your fantasy maps with spurs making a Metro double the size of the one we are building might touch upon more areas, but as mentioned many times most in those general areas won’t be near it (15 mins walk) still. There is no imperative to build a Metro in this general geography between existing demand, places of interest or potential growth.

Anyway, this is a Luas thread. You don’t actually know what they are thinking on the route. You just repeating the same thing on what they can do isn’t a discussion worth having really. I personally could see the use for some small tunnel sections if it can increase speed.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123890664#Comment_123890664

Sure dude!

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123890111#Comment_123890111

The Woodbrook developments are about 2,300 units all in all. The station can enable a further 2.5k homes at Old Connaught Avenue.

Woodbrook Golf Club just got another 100 years lease (as much as I hate that) as part of the building and a land swap so that’s not happening regardless. The other space around there is the graveyard and park. It wouldn’t justify a station in normal circumstances given the land waste but given the line was there, why not.

It wouldn’t make sense to not get Luas to Bray Station. The route itself actually isn’t that complicated beyond the Bridge on the Dargle where local busy bodies of course don’t want it. That will be built for buses and cycling well before the Luas anyway. There is the 100m or so once you get over the river to get to the station but they could adjacent to the pumping station and then there’s a small rail car park they can just take over that will take them as far as they need at Quinsborough Road.

Idbatterim

The lda are currently planning housing on part of the leopardstosn site. Totally agree that the entire site should be used for housing though...

https://lda.ie/news/land-development-agency-and-horse-racing-ireland-reach-land-transfer-agreement-with-potential-to-deliver-800-homes-at-leopardstown-racecourse

Daft Punk -

Apologies for ignorance on these matters - can someone post a link to the most up to date and generally important LUAS report available to the public on all matters relating to the LUAS in Dublin.