LUAS Network + Future Expansion

Woah

The Lucan Luas seems like it could take a million different routes will be very interesting to see what they come out with. That Irish times map males it seem like it will turn down Kylemore to the planned Dart station and the south inner line will also begin there eventually although if its doesn't end fairly centrally in town it would seem a bit pointless to me.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123596713#Comment_123596713

I'm guessing they also consider at-grade to attract less opposition than a flyover. Ridiculous, but there you go.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123597928#Comment_123597928

The N2 crossing is north of Finglas though. Is most traffic not from Finglas heading south? I didn’t think the grade crossing was a big deal personally.

spacetweek

I’m sure the Lucan Luas routing on that map is indicative only. I put more stock in the official route options being put out as part of the Lucan Luas project.

cgcsb

I wouldn't read too much into the maps at this stage they network as it's drawn wouldn't work with no new through routes in the city centre

murphaph

IMO at least some red line services should be sent up the Kylemore Road to a future DART station there. You'd be at Spencer Dock station waaay quicker by changing onto a DART there than staying on the tram all the way.

scrabtom

02. Luas 2050 TII Board Presentation Jan 25.pdf

The presentation that map comes from. Some pretty interesting stuff in there.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123600368#Comment_123600368

Great find, and an intriguing read. Some very encouraging highlights:

Their last two slides are a very good insight into the level of seriousness they seem to be taking this potential Luas growth, mention of a City Edge tram stop is very interesting as well as the apparent commitment to a new Red Line fleet in the near future.

In terms of new lines, they talk of the new Sandyford/UCD line in their expectations for the nearer future, suggesting that it may be the ‘Luas TBC’ mentioned above. This is very positive in terms of the metro extending south, as if the new Luas line is already in place by the time the extension comes about, it makes the case a lot easier.

As well as this they included an interesting table featuring relatively exact (to the hundred-metre) distances for the proposed new Luas lines, including a ‘distance off-road’ feature, which suggests that they actually do have very solid plans for the routes the new lines will take, but are being cleverly cagey about them.

Thirdly, they talk about a ‘Luas Finglas Extension’ of length just over 3km, which would fit in perfectly with an extension from Charlestown to Northwood Metro stop - a very obvious but super addition which I’m very impressed and glad that they appear to have clocked on to.

Finally they have an interesting and very positive map figure of a potential route that a Luas Northern Orbital route might take:

I think it’s incredibly positive, looking like it will link with the Green Line at Finglas Village stop, the Metro at the Collins Ave stop, DCU (main campus AND close to St. Pats), a potential Luas Balgriffin on the Swords Rd, Luas Clongriffin on the Malahide Road, and ending at Clontarf Road DART station. This reads to me as a fantastic route in of itself but also a great orbital, linking some key lines and locations.

The angle of attack at Finglas (ie. pointed back towards Broombridge) means that the line could also potentially use Hamilton depot, reducing the scope of the project further by eliminating the need for its own depot.

Overall hugely positive and definitely lots to chew over. Hopefully they’re as successful with their, I’ll admit, aspirational plan to do a new line every 1-2 years after 2030, but it looks like they actually might have their heads screwed on more than we give them credit for.

cgcsb

According to this luas finglas will be going to construction in 2026 and operational in 2030, very ambitious. But then luas lucan is going to be 10 years of chit chat before construction in 2033. That's a massive gap in luas projects.

PlatformNine

I am very happy to see that they have been putting together more detailed information about the lines and implementation timelines. I am especially happy to see they want to push some of the post-2042 timelines forward as Clongriffin, Blanch, Kimmage, and Sandyford are on the timeline for 2040-2042 delivery.

However part of me still feels that some of the bus corridors are going to be crying for help well before 2040, let alone by almost 2050. I understand that there is so much we can do now considering the work hasn't even started, and after all the next best time to start is now. However I do wonder what if anything can be done to speed up the delivery as much as possible, are there ways to shave a few years off of the development cycle of each line? Whether that be through larger development teams, legislation, etc.

One interesting thing I did find about the timeline however was that Luas Knocklyon is going to be one of the last radial routes delivered. I thought it would have taken more priority considering there are some very busy bus routes on the corridor, such as the 15+variants which alone have 23 peak-hour departures. Though that could be a sign that TII is unsure about plans for either the southern metro extension and/or a second metro line?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123596713#Comment_123596713

Where does this gibberish come from on the southside?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123600064#Comment_123600064

It might also suggest DART+ Tunnel could be back on the agenda. Serves the inner core enough that further Luas capacity isn’t an absolute requirement E-W within 1km of the Liffey either side.

I’ve always liked the idea of an E-W line near the Grand Canal that links near Heuston to Charlemount. But I’d prefer it to go further to Grand Canal Dock too.

There’s so much utility to it. The South Core of the city really extends to here and it provides utility right across the southside including for those who will still rely on Bus Connects.

The thinking behind this line needs to go a bit further than just those from Lucan. And even still, I’m not sure what is so bad about one stop changes. It would be what 10 mins to Kylemore DART stop with another 23 mins to Connolly or Spencer Dock. Probably 35 mins to Charlemount with another 5 mins to St Stephen’s Green. 30 mins to Heuston and 10 mins onwards to OCS via the Red Line. I don’t see these times as terrible versus the bus (for direct connection to OCS it is probably much of a muchness) and it provides a much broader range of connections to the city core within 40 mins of Lucan.

Consonata

Interesting tidbit, Metro Orbital "Luas" is 87% off road. At that point surely it should be pushed for 100% to get a fully automated service, especially given its the longest new Luas listed. At 87% its essentially a metro with luas rolling stock

scrabtom

One thing that is a little bit disappointing to me is how slow some of the run times are. 42 minutes from Knocklyon to Charlemont and 53 minutes from Blanchardstown to Museum seem very long. I suppose most people won't be coming from the terminus but still you would like it to be a little bit faster.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123602311#Comment_123602311

Luas is a great system but I don't think the distances at which we are building it is appropriate for an on-street tram. These distances should be covered by metro

cgcsb

Luas shouldn't be used as a main radial that goes outside the M50, capacity and journey time just isn't good enough, it is an on street tram for city usage. It makes sense in the case of Blanchardstown, Balgriffin, Sandyford, Clondalkin where it compliments a nearby DART/Metro corridor and isn't trying to be the main end-to-end means of public transport. If we had DART+ Tunnel you could make the same argument for lucan luas but in the absence of DART tunnel, luas for Lucan is simply not competitive on journey time, the same for additional luas routes to Tallaght, Tallaght needs a radial metro that can get people from the square to the city centre in 20 minutes and operate every 2 minutes. 45 minutes by luas on an 8 min frequency is not acceptable especially with brownfield industrial areas in the south west of the city being rezoned for living. Luas red line cannot be the main PT corridor for 200,000 people plus.

cgcsb

On a side note did anyone else get really annoyed looking at the north circle route ending about about 1km short of connecting with the Tyrrellstown line?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603503#Comment_123603503

Helsinki just built an orbital tram line.. it upgraded an orbital bus route that had become a victim of its own success.

Nobody will ride the whole length of these lines (by definition, an orbital is not the shortest distance between its start and end): what they do is join the radial routes together.

Luas trams run at up to 70 km/h, and will acieve that speed off street. The problem of Red Line is that it takes an indirect route, and its city section has to fight with vehicle traffic.

I do agree with you that the "second metro" needs to run SW-NE, so that Red Line would become a collector/distributor for that more direct link. Ideally, every Metro/DART station should be served by a tramline or high frequency bus that extends its catchment area.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603503#Comment_123603503

Having used the Red Line from Heuston to the Point some weeks a go it took 3 trams just to get on on a Sunday evening. The station at Heuston was packed off the platform. There was no big events to account for it so I presume that's normal. Unfortunately for tourists with luggage they didn't even get on the 3rd tram. So yeah it just wasn't working.

As an aside the station was absolutely filthy with rubbish everywhere but I guess that's to be expected with so many waiting.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603503#Comment_123603503

Yeah these are pretty much my sentiments exactly. I think we're going to end up duplicating a lot of this stuff with higher speed & capacity alternatives within a generation. I believe the TII paper is however somewhat encouraging in that it leans a bit more on orbital tram routes. It doesn't explicitly mention DU at all but you get the feeling it kind of expects it to be built. Lucan Luas is a crazy scheme in a world where you are actually going ahead with DU but I guess DU is long-fingered for God knows how long now so what the heck. It won't go to waste of course, but the resources would be much better used on a radial N11 Luas, which is pretty much the only "long" radial I think has merit because there's a wide dual carriageway there to deliver a high degree of grade separation. It's a shame we don't have the gumption to proceed with all the heavy rail & DU & metrolink first, and then see what role Luas can play to displace high frequency bus feeder routes (mostly orbital in nature). We are kind of building things the wrong way round. We should have learned from the Red Line that long radial tram routes that penetrate deep into the city centre on city streets are just not really what we should be shooting for. Lucan, Palmerstown, Ballyfermot, Clondalkin etc. would be far better served by very high frequency north-south bus feeder services taking people to a DART station in 10 or 15 minutes (all those north-south distributor roads have comprehensive bus lanes or are wide enough for them) and then letting them change to a DART right into the city centre (through DU).

To try to keep this post somewhat on topic, I'd really like to see that N11/R138 corridor Luas to allow a conversion of Green Line to metrolink. That has great merit. Take it all the way in to Harcourt and then the on street sections of Green Line retain their value even after converting the rest of the line to metrolink. At some point in the future we will be able to ban private vehicles from large parts of the city within the canal rings at least. The "public transport isn't good enough to ban car" argument can't go on forever. A city with so many radial tram lines converging in the city centre can't afford not to ban private cars in that centre. The trams just don't work. It's going to be hard enough making it work with all the buses!

CatInABox

From all of the reports and presentations that I've seen, the impression I get is that TII/NTA expect the Dart Underground project to be done eventually, but that they don't want to talk about it at all.

They are proceeding with projects that are essential for the success of DU, like dart+ and the four north project, and that once complete, will make it completely obvious that the next project should be DU.

I'd imagine that the conversation would be asking the lines of "oh look, now that we have completed these projects, we could massively increase frequency and capacity by building a short underground tunnel, which will also allow much better services on intercity services!"

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123600368#Comment_123600368

Theres a video of this presentation on YouTube as well!

https://youtu.be/DptN_p36_c0

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603600#Comment_123603600

Exactly it's not sufficient to connect distant suburbs that are basically cities of their own with the centre.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603722#Comment_123603722

Really interesting listen. Very impressed with how joined up their thinking seems to be regarding designing a network rather than just single lines.

Some interesting bits I picked up:

• They are hoping for Cork Luas to have a Railway Order in 2027. (Sounds a bit optimistic, maybe he meant to say submission).
• The new replacement Red Line trams are going to be completely different as the current models are no longer made. He said they are looking at some very interesting and technologically advanced models. Those replacements are due to be in service by end of 2029.
• The lines in that document seem like very rough estimates and will probably change a lot in their final implementation (to be expected I suppose). The purpose of the plans as they are now seems to be to inform their timelines, depot strategy, forecasting of future trams needed etc., rather than being focused on what routes will deliver the most value.
• They have been regularly talking to the construction and consultancy industries to gauge how ready they will be for the coming projects. From the sounds of things the construction sector is finding it hard to believe the projects are actually going to commence when planned.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603600#Comment_123603600

I would be interested to see the impact of Heuston West and DART+ on this. Questions remains over the proximity to the main station and how many trains will actually use the Phoenix Park Tunnel. You’d hope it would have some impact though. Certainly for those in the immediate area of Heuston and the associated tourist attractions, D+ will be a decent option when plugged into a map.

Combined with another orbital line in the south, it should make a dent in those issues. I still think D+ Tunnel would ultimately be desired here though.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123603440#Comment_123603440

I don’t think this is a big issue where it hooks into more heavy modal transit or other Luas lines.

Interesting to see the Bray Luas extension is measured out at 18 mins. There’s been talk that this is too far out but the existing E1 takes 1 hour 10 to St Stephen’s Green and is only going to get some small incremental gains from Bus Connects (subject to JR). Luas to Cherrywood measures out at just under 40 mins at the moment so this will still give a 7 to 8 minute benefit at the end of the day once built.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123600880#Comment_123600880

My take is that Lucan Luas will be 2 phases with Phase 2 opening in 2036. So Phase 1 in 2032 or so.

spacetweek

Thoughts:

Some of their frequencies seem very ambitious. They have most of their new lines showing as a tram every 5 mins which isn't plausible - no way is an orbital line going to need that. These are providing important connections but won't see the heavy usage radials will. But even their radial frequency seem overdone - for example Tyrrelstown is going to be a branch off the Green Line at Broombridge so they won't be able to serve that with 5 minute frequency because even Finglas on its own won't have that - frequency drops off north of Parnell St.

I'm hoping the list of new lines is in the order they plan to build them in because in that case Luas Clongriffin will happen soon which is a good idea.

It's good to see Sandyford (by which they mean the parallel route via UCD) in the list. This will be a big enabler for Metro South so should be prioritised.

Interesting that they named it Metro Orbital West. Metro West seems to be making a comeback! Though I doubt they actually mean Metro here because that would imply same spec as Metrolink which it won't be.

Their Lucan Luas journey time is an abysmal 67 minutes but you have to remember that if you're in Lucan you would not get on this line and head to the city centre, you would most likely either head backwards to Adamstown DART station or else go forwards and alight at Kylemore Road DART station. Many of the Lucan Luas journeys will be to or from Liffey Valley shopping centre. So the 67 minutes would not happen often in practice.

Regarding the indicative alignments, some aren't branches and will terminate in the city centre. These appear to be the end points. XX marks bad interfaces:

Clongriffin: Terminates at Connolly. Interchange with Red Line.
Balgriffin: Terminates at O'Connell St. Interchange with Green Line.
Tyrellstown: Branch off Green Line. Follows GL into CC - capacity implication. XX
Blanch: Terminates at Blackhall Place. Interchange with Red Line. Not a good terminus as it's not in the central core so most passengers would have to switch to the Red Line to finish their journey which has capacity implications. XX
Sandyford: Replacement for current Ranelagh-Sandyford Green Line which would be upgraded to Metro so no capacity implications.
Lucan: Will reach the city centre most likely at Stephen's Green. If shared running with Red Line is chosen, capacity implications for Red Line. Will interchange with Red and Green Lines regardless of route chosen.
Knocklyon: Terminates at Harcourt St which isn't close enough to the city centre. Interchange with Green Line. XX
Kimmage: Terminates at Four Courts stop. Interchange with Red Line. Not a good terminus as it's not in the central core so most passengers would have to switch to the Red Line to finish their journey which has capacity implications. XX
Clondalkin: Branch off Red Line at Red Cow. Follows RL into CC - capacity implication. XX
Orbitals: Not intended to reach the city centre.

murphaph

All the capacity problems on the red line are solved if DU is built and interchange from red line to DART at Kylemore Road is catered for. Very few passengers would choose to stay on a tram from Kylemore if heading towards the CC in that secenario.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123606543#Comment_123606543

If we are going to have branches off the RL at the red cow then from the red cow into the cc needs to have a tunnel built to increase capacity and frequency to allow the RL as is and a clondalkin branch to share a core track.

Also what have they proposed for the rathmines/terenure/rathfarnham/ballyboden areas? Ie DSW?