LUAS Network + Future Expansion

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123607052#Comment_123607052

They have the Kimmage luas, Knocklyon and South inner orbital all running through this area

spacetweek

The map seems to indicate that the Luas Bray branch southwest which originally was to end in Fassaroe here, now will head further west probably to serve Enniskerry. This is a positive change.

p_haugh

Even if that is the case, hopefully it still serves Fassaroe to link in with the Park & Ride currently being built there

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123607632#Comment_123607632

thanks.

That Kimmage line is interesting.
It looks like a spur off the red line after the kilnamanagh stop which:

heads up calmount road

and on towards the walkinstown roundabout,

go through the crumlin area via Cromwellsfort road

On towards st Patrick’s cathedral

Rejoins the RL after the four courts.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123607707#Comment_123607707

My main hope with this branch is that it really should be built to metro standard to facilitate easy conversion in future.

If they can bring Metrolink eventually to Bray, then you could with relative ease start terminating Rosslare services in Bray, since then you would have the option of two high frequency metro grade services for onward travel. Given we can't quadtrack north of Bray this is the next best bet.

gjim

The focus on orbital - inner and outer - seems very strange to me.

Given the acute lack of radial capacity (given the document acknowledges that the Red line is over-capacity as it is), I would have thought that that should be the priority - and that we'd get proposals for at least two new lines that bisect the core of the city - for example a southern East-West line mirroring the Red line and also maybe a NW-SW line - I like the N11 proposal but the key aspect is to make the line run right through the centre and out the other side. We should have learnt that terminating tram lines at the edge of the core is not a great idea from experience with the Green line.

Also I think it's easy to overstate the demand for orbital journeys - for me there is no clear evidence that there is huge latent demand for orbital journeys that would be unleashed by providing a tram/service. If there is an orbital route that justifies building fixed rail infrastructure, it should be possible to demonstrate the demand for such a service at least by first providing a decent bus service that serves the route.

Orbital Luas lines should be considered "nice-to-have" until we have replaced the need to treat many of most central and iconic of the city's streets as dual carriageways for convoys of busses. The bus system carries 200,000k in and out of the centre of the city every day - these people deserve better PT options before we start providing Luas links between outer suburbs. Not to mention the terrible impact on the urban environment that having convoys of 3-axel heavy vehicles dominate core central streets.

Sam Russell

Are there any orbital bus routes at present? Any that use the NC or SC that are useful? None use the M50.

How do you suggest a student travels from City West or The Mad Cow to UCD? Or from Booterstown to City West?

Most bus routes go An Lar, and terminate there.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609184#Comment_123609184

Orbital Luas Lines can transport passengers to as yet underutilised alignments, e.g Dart+ will likely have surplus capacity post upgrades so having orbital alignments knitting our large radial alignments together.

Being realistic after Metrolink, we probably have one more big budget undergound alignment remaining through the city core, after that we're going to have to be pragmatic and try and sweat those assets as best we can. Building high speed orbital alignments are cheaper as they can be on the surface/elevated and relatively unimpeded, and it also takes into account how polycentric Dublin is now in terms of commuting. We have places like Sandyford, CityWest, Leixlip, all drawing huge amounts of commuters, and all largely by car because of the nature of our transport system being so radial.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609323#Comment_123609323

Orbital bus routes with mom continuous QBCs or priority measures are:

Southside= S2, S4, S6, S8 and W2

Northsise= N4 and N6

Zebra3

Judging by the numbers on the M50, there is huge potential for orbital PT routes.

Whether or not the plans will relate to that demand is another story tho.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123610067#Comment_123610067

These orbitals are a bit wanderly - it takes hours to get anywhere. The O route might come close to a useful one.

scrabtom

I think there's no doubt there's value in Metro Orbital West anyway. That brings together four huge population centres in Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown, not even considering the big growth areas there like Clonburris and Tyrellstown.

It will connect with 8 Luas/DART lines.

It will also be pretty quick given it has a mostly segregated route.

bk

A few points, on using trams for orbital lines, it has become quiet normal to use trams for such lines. Copenhagen for example is just about to open this summer it's first light rail tram line as an outer orbital route at roughly the same distance from their city as the proposed Western orbital line here.

Paris also use LRT trams for their orbital routes.

If it works for Paris and Copenhagen, I'd say it would be fine for us too.

On using trams for longer distance services., Alstom actually make a version of their Citadis trams, the Citadis Dualis and Regio Citadis that are more tram-train like and get up to 100km/h! They have more seating, higher quality sets, power plugs, etc.

They are actually used in various European cities to connect distant commuter towns to cities. I forget which city but I watched a video of them blasting through rural fields to get to distant towns. The public seemed to love them.

Now I'm not necessarily saying we should use them, it would depend on the line, etc. But more to show the point that there isn't any reason why you can't use trams for longer distance services. The more important point is the design of the service, can it get up to 100km/h for long stretched, level of segregation etc.

In the video I watched, it could basically get up to 100km/h for long stretches between towns, but then slow down to a more urban type street service in the towns, with great permeability into the towns, to create a very attractive service. An interesting option in certain circumstances, but obviously no replacement for Metrolink to somewhere like Swords.

Kermit.de.frog

Is there anything known about the design of the new trams for the red line?

cgcsb

At Least Copenhagen recognised early on that trams were no use for the main radial lines. Instead they have the 5 radial S-Tog lines (like DART but functional and you can bring your bike and the busiest one is 24hr) one of their DART lines is also orbital. Then they have a 4 line metro system (all 24hr of course), one of which is an inner orbital route. And now theyre bringing in trams to replace a further out and lesser used orbital bus service. They have a bus system offering similar to what BusConnects will be also, again 24hr service.

Luas 2050 if fully implemented won't bring us close to Copenhagen 2025 we'll be using on street trams to get people from lucan to the south circular in an hour where they can change for the city centre, a 12km distance that would be done comfortably in Copenhagen in 15 to 20 mins.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123612107#Comment_123612107

That isn't really the case.

They closed their traditional tram network in the early 70's, most of those railway lines existed for around a century before that and electrification (S-Togification) of them begun in the 1930's!

No, the tram network was mostly replaced by Diesel buses, they have about the same number as us. But shortly after closing the network they realised it was a big mistake. In the 90's they started working on their Metro plan, with the first line opening in the early 2000's and while of course it has been a great success, it is nowhere near as comprehensive as the old tram network.

The new orbital tram is their first modern LRT, but they have more planned.

The counter-argument would be Amsterdam, which never closed their old tram network and as a result they have only about 1/10th the number of city buses as us or Copenhagen. Of course they also have heavy rail commuter lines and Metros, but they are much more reliant on their tram network for street level transport, rather then buses.

Of course Copenhagens old tram network would have needed modernisation, but they should have followed Amsterdams lead of gradually modernising the old lines and services, rather then filling their streets with dirty Diesel buses.

It is the one very obvious big mistake in Copenhagens otherwise excellent transport network.

We seem to be heading more towards a hybrid Copenhagen - French model. S-Togification of all our railway lines with DART+, Copenhagen style Metro with Metrolink, but very French style LRT with a growing Luas network (and London Bus style bus services of course).

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609184#Comment_123609184

What is your proposal though?

Lucan Luas appears to be inevitably slow if you view it as solely a means to get to the city core. If you view it as a means to connect into more rapid transit and also as a means to traverse the city, it really isn’t.

I think we underestimate how far out the city core goes. Charlemount is city core.

The proposals aren’t comparable to not having the two Luas lines connecting. In fact it seems that they go out of their way (even sacrificing time) to achieve it.

Heartbreak Hank

Does this plan effectively mean no further metro lines after Metrolink?

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615082#Comment_123615082

Effectively yes. There's been no mention of any future metro lines as part of transport planning for the city since the Government abandoned 'A Platform for Change' back in the last crash. The only metro we'll hear about after the current one is completed is probably going to be the upgraded green line.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615082#Comment_123615082

No, in fact, I disagree with @AngryLips, I think a second line will definitely be needed. TII in their recent Luas report have been specifically cagey about certain Luas lines and I believe they will chose two spines (one north and one south of the Liffey) to join together as a second north-south metro line.

My guesses are the general route of Luas Balgriffin on the northside (the Malahide Rd route to Clongriffin is too close to the DART to replicate another rapid transit corridor, and is a completely straight and wide alignment with space for a Luas line, unlike the Balgriffin routing).

For the southside, either of the Knocklyon or Kimmage routes will be chosen. Whichever of the southside routes they choose however I think will be altered at the end to reach Tallaght, which makes a lot of sense.

Again, my guess is on the Kimmage routing, as there is no specific straight alignment for a Luas down this way, unlike Luas Knocklyon which has the Clanbrassil Street-Harold’s Cross/Terenure/Rathfarnham Roads which all form a perfectly straight penetrative alignment through this area. As well as this, it will make a nice even spread of light vs heavy rail lines - DART SW, Luas Red, Metro 2, Luas Knocklyon, Metro 1 (to Sandyford), Luas Green (via N11) DART S - with an orbital line tying it all together.

riddlinrussell

I still wonder on "metroifying" the outer red line from Fatima, there's a large degree of separation meaning only really major junctions need dealing with in terms of 'significant' expense, and then a tunnel into the city from Fatima. Maybe not a 'full' metro a'la metrolink, but upgraded to take the more metro style trams that can hit higher speeds and fully grade separate it?

cgcsb

Government are simply not going to mention another metro line until the first one is open or at least substantially complete, they fear another children's hospital debacle. But of course every area will want one as soon as the first one opens and will make sure their TDs know it.

Regardless of what's in the current strategy documents I think you'll see a second line being announced in or around 2030. If you really read into the luas 2050 presentation you even get a little hint, they appear to have drawn a grand total of 3 luas lines between the city centre and Tallaght with significant parallel running an little space between them, that's at least part of your metrolink2 alignment. TII are not going to have 3 parallel luas lines with hardly a kilometer between them. Some study will recommend amalgamation into a higher capacity option and metrolink 2 will be born. That's assuming metrolink1 gets off the ground.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123614792#Comment_123614792

"My proposal" - more like my inclination would be to concentrate the most expensive and least flexible infrastructure in the places where it will have the most benefit and impact - where the population is densest and where there are most trip generators. Spending billions and ending up with a service that is significantly slower than existing services for the majority of users, does not seem judicious to me.

Lucan is a very low density suburb dominated by semi-detached housing and large green areas and is particularly unsuited to tram and much better served by frequent buses.

The number of people using Lucan Luas to get to another point in suburbia compared to the number going in and out of town will be a small fraction.

The Red line is currently packed in the centre - we don't even need studies or the like to know that a second East-West tram line South of the Liffey would also be packed - thus justifying the capital invested.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123625203#Comment_123625203

On Red line, I think we're almost at the point where we might look at this corridor for the next Metro service. Upgrade the existing tram in the meantime, but plan for it to eventually become a collector/distributor for a new, higher capacity service into and out of SW Dublin.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123625226#Comment_123625226

I don’t think there’s any need to upgrade the Red Line to metro on its current alignment, the reason it’s so packed is because it’s the only usable (ie. frequent and high capacity) transport vein in the whole of DSW. The 2050 plans propose 2 more - Kimmage and Knocklyon. Definitely one of these should be metro, but I don’t think the Red Line corridor is ideal.

The alignment into the city - while it should definitely be grade separated where possible for an even better service, like at the Belgard Road junction - is already a very straight and direct one, as will be Luas Knocklyon, whereas a Kimmage Luas would be very windy as there isn’t a direct straight route from the city to Tallaght through this area. It is also sandwiched between two lower capacity lines (Red and Knocklyon) so makes sense to put the higher capacity line here.

Knocklyon (via Harold’s Cross, Terenure, Rathfarnham, and Ballyboden) has an equally good argument for an SW metro over the Red Luas line, it’s arguably the most dense out of all 3 SW alignments and would have great potential for an M50 P+R at Knocklyon.

Whichever way the SW metro goes, it should definitely still reach Tallaght, but I feel that a Kimmage route or a Knocklyon route, is more suitable for Metro.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123625203#Comment_123625203

I also see you’re point with regards to Lucan, I think Luas Lucan has always just been in people’s heads as one of the future Luas lines, I think it’s been a while since anyone’s really thought about it properly.

As well as this since it was originally conceived, the Kildare mainline has undergone a huge transformation, and is currently undergoing another, meaning that it will itself actually be a high frequency, high speed, and high capacity line into the city centre, and with all of its stations nicely situated on wide and straight north-south road alignments, bus feeders to each station could be a great solution.

I do think we need an E-W alignment through the south city though, and truncating this line at Heuston or where it meets the Red Line is a poor use of such an alignment, it sounds continue out East (and west, but that’s another issue), if not all the way to Lucan, then at least to Ballyfermot (link with Kylemore DART) and to Liffey Vally - a good destination in itself, but also a major bus interchange for this area - where passengers can make onward journeys. This would be a relatively straightforward alignment as well but should definitely not share tracks with the Red Line if at all possible.

I’d love to see the new report and route analysis they’re currently doing whenever it’s out to see what the higher-up plan is on this. Anyone know when that’ll be out?

KrisW1001

@OisinCooke Ah, I want very clear there. I wasn't suggesting an upgrade of Red Line to Metro, but rather that the second Metro line should run roughly along the same corridor: Southwest, Heuston, Connolly, then continue to the Northeast. The Red Line would stay as a tram, with the long term plan of becoming a way of bringing longer distance passengers to and from this new metro line. The "upgrade" I mentioned was a capacity upgrade.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123626459#Comment_123626459

Ahh my apologies Kris, gotcha, yeah I think that’s definitely seems like a likely outcome, I think Tallaght - SW - Heuston - Connolly - NE is a nice alignment for a new line and could work well.

The Heuston to Connolly connection is something I hadn’t thought about before for some reason - would take pressure off the DU x DART transfer station (whichever station they choose) and also off the CC Red Line which is crowded at the best of times between these two stations…

citizen6

I think the Red Line should split at James' and run down Thomas St to College Green (if not further).

Big increase in Red Line capacity, more PT access to James' and new Children's Hospital.

Lucan Luas can take a different route into city centre.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123625203#Comment_123625203

What is your basis for saying the “majority of users”?

I think the only way these Luas lines work is to plug them into rapid heavy rail along the way. Based on the current map, it doesn’t matter where you terminate it in the city core because it will he a hike. So to me it makes much more sense to go for a route like this. The notion that every line needs to get to SSG or OCS is madness and seems to miss that Dublin has a bigger core.

I’m not sure I’d be prioritising Lucan at the moment myself, but it is what it is.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123627320#Comment_123627320

My basis for claiming that the majority of PT users in Lucan want to get to/from town/the centre is based on the fact that this is the pattern that has been observed globally in cities all over the world. We can also look at existing (bus) services and their patronage.

If the purpose is to connect passengers living in a very low-density outer-suburb to high speed/high capacity PT corridors, then I'm arguing that Luas isn't the best tool for the job here - actually buses are.

And that the money spent on building Luas tracks and infrastructure through Lucan is money that could be much more usefully and effectively spent by building more tram alignments in the centre - an alternative to the central Red line East-West alignment being a very obvious one. Lucan Luas will only serve a small fraction of Lucan (the whole of Lucan is nearly as big as the city centre between the canals - there are parts of the Lucan that will be as far away from the proposed Luas as O'Connell bridge is from Charlemont) and even for the small part of the Lucan population who live close to the tracks, it will offer poorer (slower) journey times for the most popular trips.

Prioritizing Lucan is a historical accident and nothing more, based on the machinations of a long-gone West Dublin minister who was under political pressure at the time and decided that their re-election chances would be enhanced if they could say they procured a Luas service for their constituents. That's what's disappointing about the plans - it should have been a opportunity to look afresh at where Dublin needs Luas/trams and not rehash of plans from almost 3 decades ago - Dublin has evolved since and PT needs in Dublin has evolved - and ministers have moved on.

I can't resign myself to "it is what it is" given the massive missed opportunity it would - there are obvious and huge bottlenecks (even post DART+, ML and BusConnects) in Dublin PT which Luas could alleviate.