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Kerry GAA discussion thread #2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,477 ✭✭✭wonga77


    We need to go back to basics. We have too many forwards that are afraid to shoot, 30 yards out and they're handpassing it up to try and kick from 20 yards. Id rather see a fella have a cut from 40 yards and kill the ball rather than run into traffic and turning it over. Mind you most county teams are the same now, fellas are scared sh1tless to shoot and miss.
    We had plenty chances to put that game to bed, time for JOC to move on as a fresh voice is needed
    Nothing against Armagh or Donegal bu id love to see Galway win it out from here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭kerryjack


    It was a funny kind of game we were well on top in the first half but just couldn't put them away, after our goal they stayed in it kept plugging away they got there goal and the crowd really got going and they built momentum and we had nothing left in extra time. Hard to explain what happened, we had chances, but just didn't happen today, I remember what Jack o Connor said after 22 when they won he said they were enjoying it there was excitement there full of energy, The system seems to have drained the life out of these very talented players like who wants to see David Clifford back in the backs and Tom O Sullivan snathing at a goal chance. No excuses here we got bet by a team who played like they had sweet Fucvk all to lose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    lets take two people more qualified then me

    1 , ambrose o donovon ,(radio kerry) every attack on the opposition goal should be kicked dead

    2 michael murphy , (bbc) , the ratio for scoring is 35 seconds , if you are any longer in possession in attack your chances are provenly diminished

    two brilliant pundits that have been singing Kerry's flaws all year , lads in kerry called jack o connor a dinosaur , in fairness he is too caught up in the modern game and tactice going on the last two games



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭Rosita


    I think the point people are making is that Shane Ryan doesn't claim the high ball. A parallel world is attractive though, even fun sometimes. If Tipperary don't score a last minute goal and point against Waterford back in April, Cork are not in the All Ireland Final next Sunday. If Fermanagh score more than everyone they play they are in an All Ireland Final too. If Séamus Darby hits the post Kerry have five in a row. But not sure what imagining an alternative scenario achieves in the case of a Kerry post-mortem. You could easily have Kerry going for three in a row this morning if you reimagine the outcome of individual incidents.

    Chances are an All Ireland semi final will often come down to small margins. Ryan's blunder is the kind of small margin which cannot happen if you want to win a tight match. That Kerry would be in a final if he hadn't made it just amplifies its importance. That's kinda the whole point really. It wasn't even just the three points as the sense it gave that the game was definitely winnable for Armagh after they had trailed by 4/5 points fairly often. All these Kerry players are in their own right talented footballers, but the team is ordinary, and was even an ordinary champion team in '22, and it's hardly outrageous for "armchair" critics to have their say I think.

    Begrudging Armagh doesn't really come into it from what I read here. They were by far the better team in the last 40 minutes of that. A six-point margin would have reflected their superiority more appropriately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭holdfast


    Very disappointing result, soft frees added up. Did we do any work on Gough, Armagh did not give anyway. We tried to control it too much, a lot of turnovers in the 2nd half and we should have moved the ball at pace and check them out, versus the slow build up and working to getting a shot off ala basketball 3 pointers. Looks like they used DC and SOS to pull the defence out of shape rather than been exploited with quick ball. This slow build up does help the likes of Spillane etc. We must switch back and forth as needed. Never pressed the kick out, we should have mixed it up. This robbed a chance to get an easy score with the defense set up facing in the wrong direction. Like Aramgh did and the msitakes or we win the ball presents way more options

    We looked tiered both physically and mentally, this is another wound that will hang over us. Disappointed we can’t seem to close it out enough when it gets down to the wire. We did it in 2022 final, but we have fallen when the pressure is on Cork, Tyrone, Dublin last year and Armagh this year.

    Lack of a right leg by O Sullivan, read about the great players mostly kick with their preferred foot, but can kick when they see the chance or the option with their other. This needs to be hammered home to all underage development squads.

    Been around the development squads and very little development going on, good football. But development it is survival of the fitness, not enough going into coaching real coaching. They are never given any guidance on what to improve, but rather keep practicing. Which is not the way i would think the underage teams of the north seem to be taking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,539 ✭✭✭dobman88


    2019 - draw Dublin after playing against 14 men for more than a half of football showing some tactical inexperience. Well beaten in replay.

    2020 - knockout. Lose to Cork who then lose to Tipp in Munster final.

    2021 - Tyrone AI semi final loss. Kept running into contact and got punished accordingly by a well drilled Tyrone.

    2022 - Winners but took absolutely everything we had in the tank to beat Galway down the stretch and Dublin missing some key players to scrape over a semi final

    2023 - Final loss v Dublin.

    2024 - Semi loss v Armagh.

    This team is old enough and experienced enough to have the full weight of expectations on their shoulders now. I'm not going to start cutting any players cos they'll be feeling sh!t enough about themselves but it's a bad sign when Paul Murphy looked to be our saviour and I say that as a massive fan of his. He's given some outstanding service over the years.

    Like I said yesterday, I've no idea where to go from here but this one stings more than the other losses tbh. Maybe my own expectations were too high but I thought after all the losses, kerry were finally maturing. And I was wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 447 ✭✭Piskin


    They have learned nothing in truth. All the players know is how to lose games they should win. Serious lack of composure when under pressure, superstar minors who have failed to establish themselves in senior football.Paddy Tally the only coach who has made any improvement. How many excuses do we have to make about D Clifford? He has been on the team 7 years now yet is easily marshalled by opposing backs and his positioning & shooting is wild west wayward in crunch moments. No way should Mike Quirke & D Murphy ever get the job when Jack leaves as again they proved they have no tactical nous. Their is talent but it is not being developed as we see the same old mistakes from players again & again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭thesultan


    Thought Tomàs spoke well on the Sunday game yesterday in how we haven't been able to play well all year..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,386 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    Word today that he's potentially off to Geelong to play with Mark O'Connor.

    Thats going to be a tough loss to deal with if it plays out.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭munster87


    That’s what I had heard. Big loss is it happens



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭kerryjack


    He might be right, on reflection talking to a few people outside the county about Kerry's game and a few people saying that we just can't play that type of shite, 30 men in side in a square of ground not much bigger than some people's kitchens but my argument is that we had 3 of the countrys best long range shooters in D Clifford, Sean O Se and Tony Bronson why didn't they go for more scores from outside the 40, we got so tied up with the opposition negativeiy that we forgot about our own game and the talent at our disposal,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭50HX


    The % return from long range scores isn't high enough to justify giving away possession via the kick out again

    It's the way the game has gone unfortunately, Dublin in their pom rarely shot outside the "sacred D"

    Stats stats & more stats



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 229 ✭✭westsidestory


    Whatever about playing a few games in 70s & 80s and winning AIs not having serious games at this stage going against Kerry. Look how Galway have grown in to the championship as summer has progressed after having tight competitive games and learning along the road. Sligo and Mayo had them near beat in Connacht, Armagh grabbed a draw out of defeat up in Markievicz park etc. With the footballers Kerry have they could only learn and improve. Shocking to see 1 team cramping up.

    Game reminded me of 2002 AI final with Kerry the superior team in first half and Armagh picking it up in 2nd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭King Power Fox


    After the Armagh game what are expectations in Kerry for 2025. Are Kerry coming back towards the pack? Is there a chance Cork could bridge the gap in Munster. John Cleary improved them alot this year. With Dublin in transition I think the next few years are very open.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭50HX


    Jack will see out his term, if he keeps the same backroom team then I suspect the same result as this year.

    It will need fresh blood & a new term in charge for someone else to get us back to the top.

    Stay in Div 1, get a tougher group in the round Robin nonsense & luck of the draw after that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I still think we've had the strongest panel in Ireland since 2021 but have only 1 AI to show for it in 4 years. Realistically we should've beaten Armagh by 5/6/7 points.

    Cork are improving every year. The stronger they are, the better it is for us.

    It's difficult to know where Dublin are. They started 9 players over 30 against Galway so definitely need a rebuild. I don't know much about their younger players. They haven't been great underage recently.

    Ideally you'd want 6/7/8 teams who are all capable of beating each other and I think we have that now.

    Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Galway and 3 or 4 Ulster teams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,539 ✭✭✭dobman88


    Expectations the same as every year. Win the all Ireland. The only time I didn't expect that is when dublin were at their height and this kerry team were young. They have the full weight of expectations on them now.

    Kerry never pulled away from the pack so won't be coming back towards it. They're just there. Existing among the pack.

    I'm not sure Cork will do much. They've been a "coming" team for a few years now and apart from beating Kerry in 2020, don't have much to show for it.

    Agree the race for Sam should be wide open for a few years at least which is good for the game in general and hopefully Kerry can pick up 1 or 2 along the way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,547 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Looking at the present Kerry team I say only Clifford would definitely geton the noughties team.

    After that Foley woukd be in with a shout at FB, would DOC be ahead of Kirby or Maher I am not sure. Paudie Clifford might squeeze in as a sub on the forwards. Graham O Sullivan is probably unlucky to be up against Marc and Thomas O Se for a spot.

    This team lacks a few leaders and a good few of the players lack composure in tight situations. The team.is getting old fast and there is no rattle in there biscuit tin.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Clifford for sure

    Tom O’Sullivan and Sean O’Shea would be there or thereabouts vs Young and O’Ceinneide

    That 00’s team was a special group and it’s a very high bar in fairness



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,547 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Tom O Sullivian would be up against the Tom O'Sullivian and threr is a reason he has 5 gongs.

    Full forward line Gooch, Donoghy Donnacha Walsh. Half forwards Galvin, Declan O Sullivian, Darren O Sullivian. As well Bryan Sheahan and Mike Frank Russell are knocking about. Clifford squeezes in for Darren no more room at the inn.

    MF is Dara O Se and A N Other. Bryan Sheahan played MF a couple times in his hey day he was a definite starter

    HB's Thomas O Se, Seamus Moynihan, Aidan OMahoney,

    FB line, Marc O Se, Micheal McCarthy, The Tom O Sullivian.

    Goalie Diarmuid Murphy V Shane Ryan

    Bar Clifford none if the rest are definitely starters. Maybe Foley when McCarthy and Moynihan were at tgmhe end of there careers but Aidan O'Mahoney was taking the FB position then

    Graham O'Sullivian is unlucky he is up against the two O'Se's

    The big difference between the noughties and the present team is the leaders it was oozing them. Moynihan, McCarthy, Thomas, Dara, Aidan, Declan, Donoghy were all natural leaders in a tight spot.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    If you’re talking about making an all-decade type team yes I agree. Also agree regarding leaders on the field, every line had at least one

    What I meant was that if current day Tom O’Sullivan and Seanie were around at any stage during the 00’s they’d have played plenty of football for Kerry, along with Graham and maybe one or two others

    That really was such a great period in Kerry football when you list off all the names



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭King Power Fox


    How many minors from the 5 in a row made it on the current senior team in the period 21-24. My own team Limerick pulled a good number from the successful u21 all ireland winning teams. When Jack goes would Tomas O Sé give up punditry to manage Kerry?. If Cork has any sense they would give him a role with minors/u20 ( if finished with Kerry u20).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    The current team is made up mostly of players from those minor teams, a lot of them came through but there was an understandable expectation in some quarters that the next ‘great’ team was on the way. It doesn’t look like that is going to happen for this group, they are a good team that is at the business end every year though, and will hopefully get over the line again.

    U21 / U20 success is a much better predictor of senior success than minor as you would expect



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I still think we should be going for 4 in a row this year.

    '19 they were still young.

    '20 I've erased from my memory.

    '21 to '24 I think we'd the best panel in Ireland.

    Maybe they're not as good as we think they are or else they seem to have bad luck. They seem to concede poxy goals a lot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 447 ✭✭Piskin


    Sean o' Shea is greatly overrated as is Tom o' Sullivan



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭Rosita


    I thought the guy who asked if people thought Kerry "would come back to the pack" in 2025 was misguided about where the team stands until I read this.

    There is nothing in Kerry's displays in the last few years to remotely imply that they should be going for 4 in a row. There is a far stronger argument that Dublin should be going for 10 in a row.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭awaywithyou




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭munster87




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    I don’t think this team is of that calibre, four in a row? Not a hope. They are a very good team that is always there or thereabouts but they are also quite average in a lot of areas.

    Any multi all Ireland winning team doesn’t let soft goals or bad luck derail them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Don't want to down this rabbit hole but Dublin's record over ten years was seven All Ireland titles, and two one-point defeats to Galway and Kerry and a semi-final defeat after extra time. As plausible and more than a Kerry four in a row. Like I said I don't want go get into this one as the suggestion of a Kerry four in a row was so absurd in the first place. Lots of good players on the Kerry panel but still a long way from one of these exceptional multiple All Ireland winning teams Kerry have been accustomed to producing every couple of decades.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    Dublin Were second best in games you mentioned... Galway kerry mayo thoroughly deserved their wins so not sure how you can make out that the dubs have a stronger argument for winning more than they've won..

    I was one of the people who upto last sat evening was of the opinion Kerry should be going for 4 in a row... but it looks like the concession of silly goals in 2021 and 2023 and last sat.. goals that you wouldn't see at u12 .. is a trend with this team and not a one off thing or a stroke of bad luck... no way do Kerry deserve to be going for 4 in a row... and they will win very little until they sort that problem...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    The problem is that they aren't good enough and dont have the leadership to respond to setbacks like the concessions of those goals.

    Kerry got a lucky goal themselves. They were still ahead of Armagh after the goal. If they were good enough, the game was still there to be won and plenty time to do it.

    Same with the Dublin and Tyrone goals.

    If you want to be an x in a row winner you have to be good enough to respond to set backs in a game against good teams.

    If Kerry win 2 more All Irelands in this decade it would be a superb return for this team, although in 2020 I reckon more than 3 All Irelands would have been expected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Never said Kerry, Galway or Mayo didnt deserve their wins. Never said that.

    Nor did I say that there's a stronger (than what?) argument Dublin should have won more.

    What I actually said was that there is as strong an argument that Dublin could've won 10 in a row as Kerry winning 4 in a row (as was suggested). After all they both finished 3 short of the mark.

    Similar "what if the goalkeeper hadn't done this" or "what if the forward had scored that", or "they were ahead at half-time or with 10 minutes to go" arguments can be made for both. The craziness of the concept that any team could win 10 in a row should not deflect from the comparison.

    But the comment was made largely to highlight the implausibility of the claim about Kerry and not to claim Dublin should've won more. I'm sure Dublin are content enough with their lot.

    Post edited by Rosita on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭awaywithyou




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    We gifted Dublin a goal and Clifford had a stinker last year. We were the better team for most of the game

    This year we were leading against Armagh for 3/4/5 points for most of the game and another poxy goal.

    Two terrible goals against Tyrone also, who weren't a great team.

    I don't think it's ridiculous to say we should be going for 4 in a row.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    We really need to win a few AIs until Dublin rebuild again.

    My hope is Clifford lifts the 40th AI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭King Power Fox


    I think too much pressure is on Clifford. Let him play away as close to goal as possible. Forget about making him captain. It suits a few select players - not necessarily the best players. I think Paudi Clifford should stay captain - he has been consistently good the past 2 years - probably Kerrys best player in that time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Ah it is. 4 in a row is a long way from winning 1 All Ireland in 10 years.

    You have to be a seriously good team to even win back to back and an exceptional team to do 3 or 4 in a row. This Kerry isn't either of those while being a very decent team and in the leading pack.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I think we're lacking a quality inside forward and half forward to complete the team. Paul Geaney's a great servant but I wouldn't call him top class anymore.

    If Cillian Burke stays around, Tony Brosnan can move inside.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    I have been very surprised at Geaney starting. Burke is a fine player and might be a great player, but for me I'd start him and let him at it. While he does bring energy when he comes on he is still too raw at this point in the championship to do the right thing every time towards the end of the game when it's in the melting pot which is no surprise for someone young and experienced. That's the time you might need Geaney, not in the first 3/4 of the match.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    More space also for Geaney to operate as the game opens up in the final 1/4.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,071 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    At least your women prevented another Armagh - Dublin final. They take no prisoners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Sickening arrogance from the Galway crowd to mistake themselves for the Dubs now 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Taking each game you mention individually you can construct an argument. Yes, Tyrone weren't a great team, and yes Kerry did lead Armagh by 5 points. (Clifford, for some reason, actually got Footballer of the Year after that display against Dublin). The catch is when you consider the evidence from all the unfortunate defeats together.

    You seem to be disregarding that losing to those teams says something about Kerry too. They did not happen to some third party or as an act of God. These were games Kerry were involved in and were in a position to exert control of but were unable to do so.

    There's a touch of the Kilkenny hurlers' self-delusion in some of this ("we were only two points down with 10 minutes left and somehow this is a better guide than the fact that we lost by 10 points in the end"). You could probably have Galway hurlers (or anyone else) on three or four in a row too if you pick arbitrary moments in matches where they were ahead and looking okay against 'not great' opponents. But it'd be equally hollow.

    To jump from acknowledging those sort of recurring Kerry defeats to a four in a row claim is the problem. It is defeats in those circumstances that makes the four in a row claim silly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,547 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    This is it in a nut shell. The present team and managment lack the ability to close out games. They fail to take critical scores and then a blunder happens. There shot selection at times is brutal.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Would agree with that, some great individuals but not a great team.

    Also the sight of them panting and going down with cramp all over the place in extra time during the semi is a worry and something that needs to be addressed. It’s nothing new, albeit it’s the worst example I’ve seen. Maybe they just hadn’t been tested and were too used to winning games pulling up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I don't think it's a silly claim to say Kerry should be going for 4 in a row but it is true that they've a pattern of conceding soft goals and not killing off teams.

    They were a better team than Armagh for most of the game but still managed to lose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭50HX


    Jaysus lads we are facing down the barrell of 20yrs since we did back-back all irelands nevermind this talk of should be goin for 4 in a row.

    Utter nonsense talk, if we were good enough we'd have won them...simple as



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,547 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Y

    Even as individuals they are only fairly average footballers. None except D Clifford would be nailed onto the noughties team and if you picked the 20 best Kerry footballers since 2000 Clifford is the only one guaranteed to be on if you pick a balanced twenty.

    7-8 backs, 7-8 forwards, 3-4 MF's and a goalie.

    Along with only being average footballers they lack leaders within the team.

    Post edited by Bass Reeves on

    Slava Ukrainii



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