Rural D Area Rapid Transit ? (R-DART)

Of all of the threads you've opened, Limerick is probably the most realistic, as the city has a few railway lines surrounding it passing through or near some populated areas.

Plenty of options for stations in Dooradoyle, Raheen, Corbally, Moyross and Ballysimon, and can easily extend out along the mainline beyond each of these. Some P&R options here too. Single track on most of the lines isn't ideal, but given the relatively low frequencies needed, and potential for passing loops at certain area's, its not too bad.

Difficult to cover Castletroy, Annacotty (not the business park…) and Caherdavin…

EMU's are always preferable. Most important thing with voltage selection is that it's consistent across the country - at some point in the future, we're going to want to have EMU's running regional and intercity services.

I think one of the biggest issues with commuter rail in Limerick is the routing into Colbert itself - the Foynes line turns away from Colbert. The old bridge into Colbert would have to be rebuilt, but the platforms would be short, and require reversing for actual serviceable lines (eg Patrickswell to Castleconnell). Honestly, while there is certainly some works required, I don't think it would be massive. 1 building would have to be demolished, and then its building through fields/car parks.

There are also a few level crossings which would be nice to remove, but not the biggest issue/highest priority here.

scrabtom · 26-05-2024 03:53PM

I’m disappointed to see the GART thread locked. I would have been interested to see what people thought about it.

Sam Russell · 26-05-2024 04:08PM

Mod: I think renaming this thread for DART lines for cities and towns outside of Dublin. Having one for each one of possible projects dilutes the discussion because they would all be similar.

So Galway, Limerick Cork, or Waterford would all be covered.

scrabtom · 26-05-2024 04:32PM

I don’t think there’s much of a case for something like this in Waterford anyway.

The station isn’t that close to most of the offices/factories in the city (aside from any offices they end up putting in the North Quays). There’s also not many people living along the line in either the Kilkenny or the Wexford direction. The only settlement I can really think of in either direction is Mullinavat, which only has a population of 233 according to Wikipedia.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-05-2024 05:38PM

The focus in Dublin seems to be around more Luas lines or the imaginary Metro North

Adding more commuter railways would require thought and planning from Irish Rail, which seems to be a firing offence there

So, it seems more likely that tram lines like the LUAS would be viable for other cities in Ireland

I could definitely see it as feasible in many cities, 2-3 lines through the city centre would cover a significant amount of the population

IMO the main focus for railways should be intercity and long distance commuting services

In my ideal world there'd be high speed rail services linking all the cities in Ireland (not just to Dublin) and someone living in Cork or Limerick who needs to travel to Dublin for work could take a short walk to the tram, take the tram to the station and board a high speed train to Dublin City, and then get another tram to near their office. Total journey time 1.5-2 hours

I know that isn't nothing but if you needed to get into Dublin City for 9am from Cork you'd probably be leaving before 6am these days

Also there'd be a rail tunnel to the UK so you could get a high speed train to anywhere in Europe

Yeah, I know it'll never happen in a million years, but I'm allowed to dream 😂

A1ACo · 26-05-2024 08:38PM

Hi, the intention had not been to lob in a grenade and walk away (though i did go out for dinner and a walk etc after posting the topics!)!

The use of versions of DART was very simply because, I thought it would very quickly get across the intention, and also, I was attempting to approach the idea in a nationwide and nationally understandable fashion - similar to the easy to understand branding of all the national colleges until recent years i.e. previous - TCD, UCD, UCC, UCG, … (it would be a bit of a challenge I surmise, for most to now to identify those university's new names/ acronyms).

I also did think of using just one heading for potential non-Dublin, and non-Cork electric services but, I considered that there could be too much ping-ponging between the different parts of the country, specific considerations and their details, that would be confusing within one thread.

Otherwise, I was thinking of independent de-centralisation (away from Dublin), and fairly tight/ small shuttle type systems, focussed on existing stations/ locations - but encouraging more density and employment - and potentially new areas of development in-between e.g. similar to SDZs (strategic development zones), or just on zoned development land/ preferably around existing towns/ villages/ etc. but in the hinterlands/ some proximity of the other cities besides Dublin and Cork.

scrabtom · 27-05-2024 11:21AM

With regards to Galway, you'd imagine that there'd be an opportunity for a commuter rail service between Athenry and Galway at least. I know there's talks of significant developments near the existing Oranmore station, and you'd imagine there could be the same around new stations on the line, plus maybe a stop in Oranmore itself if that's possible.

The first steps of expanding Ceannt station, building the passing loop at Oranmore and then double tracking the line all seem like they are happening or will happen in the not so distant future. All you should need then if you use the BEMUs is somewhere to charge them and somewhere to store and maintain them, and then the stations of course. Considering you wouldn't need many trains for such a short length of track I don't know whether you'd need a new depot or anything like that.

I don't know too much about the rail infrastructure or the feasibility of building developments along that stretch of track so I would be interested to hear from someone who has a bit more local knowledge.

Sam Russell · 27-05-2024 11:39AM

I think Galway would be better served by a Luas scheme.

Say a line from Claregalway to Salthill by way of Eyre Square, and another along the Western Distributor Road via the QCB and the N6 to the Coolagh Roundabout and perhaps as far Oranmore. P&R should be added where possible and needed.

A new bridge next to the QCB for the Luas might be needed.

The Luas proposed would serve the hospital, the University, and most of the industrial estate, plus the city centre. A train from Athenry, even with dual tracking would serve very few.

scrabtom · 27-05-2024 01:04PM

I agree that a Luas system in Galway would probably be more useful, but I imagine it would be quite a lot more expensive that a Dart like service from Ceannt to Athenry, and quite a lot more difficult planning wise.

There's not an awful lot of space to develop in Galway so I think the main aim of a commuter rail service would be to open up the land along the rail line for development.

Ideally we would have both but outside of the very long term I think that's unrealistic.

Sam Russell · 27-05-2024 01:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189263#Comment_122189263

Cost is not relevant if the project achieves little. A rail system that is based on the existing train line will serve next to no-one. It does not go near any traffic generators like the hospital or university nor any industrial estates.

With a bad start, it is usual to result in a bad ending. If it is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

blanch152 · 27-05-2024 01:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188894#Comment_122188894

Why not east-west from Bearna to Oranmore, through Eyre Square, with the second line north-south from Claregalway to Eyre Square.

scrabtom · 27-05-2024 01:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189403#Comment_122189403

You could be right I suppose. Maybe if there was a Luas line going from the University and the Hospital to Eyre Square, then up either the Wellpark Road or the Tuam Road as far as the industrial estates in Ballybrit, and then down to somewhere like Roscam to connect again with a new station on the rail line it might make more sense.

The chances of that are slim to none anyway. When you put the cost of those two things with the billion Euro needed for the bypass (which absolutely must be built in my opinion), it becomes just too much money for the government to realistically invest in the local transport network of a city with only 85,000 people living in it.

I would love to be proved wrong about that.

Sam Russell · 27-05-2024 02:01PM

I would build the Luas in Galway rather than the bypass.

Get people out of cars and onto public transport, cycles, and walking. Provide P&R to allow the last few Kms by active travel.

timmyntc · 27-05-2024 02:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189421#Comment_122189421

The land take required will ensure this never happens. Barna and beyond will never get proper PT because of ribbon development and many expensive houses along the coast, of which some would definitely need knocked as inland is too hilly for any routing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188894#Comment_122188894

There is little population centers between claregalway and the city itself, it is not a great candidate for a luas. Almost 5km between stops if that were the case.

A spur west of oranmore station veering north through all farmland that will eventually be Ardaun and other new higher density suburbs would be better, it could connect with parkmore east and then continue to Claregalway through farmland the whole way.

Sam Russell · 27-05-2024 05:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189617#Comment_122189617

The Luas to Claregalway would be a conduit for the P&R that would allow all those beyond Claregalway out towards Tuam, Mount Bellew, and other parts, to drive as far the P&R and travel quickly into the city center. It could travel across open farm land to connect with the N6 (Bothar na dTreabh) near the New Cemetery, and then into Shop Street.

A1ACo · 28-05-2024 12:02AM

What struck me years ago taking the train to Galway City, was that just before the city there was .. nothing… and that the idea that before a main city train station that that would be the case, and only single track for much of the approach, and no other stations before it, seemed very strange.

In saying that, there obviously are some settlements, just not much. But as above, it would seem that in the circa 6km from Galway Ceannt station to Oranmore station, that there a good few fields that could be developed for say somewhat higher density than existing residential development mostly around there, and certainly a number of fields surrounding Oranmore station for development, and a nice looking field for an additional station and development to the east and just east of the light industrial etc area north of Oranmore proper.

The question of rail facilitating development, or development facilitating rail (tail wagging the dog!) was expressed at the time of the proposed Red Line Luas Extension out to Citywest/ Saggart (that extension of the line was built), and similar questions raised for the Green Line south extension proposed to Fassaroe west of Bray (not built). But in a time of housing pressure, the oft heard about in recent times idea of - transit based development - could possibly apply to Galway (and Limerick etc.) i.e. if development and any assistance for it was to be made by government - around rail lines on edge of regional cities would seem a good approach, and a good excuse as any for funding, including to build to somewhat higher densities.

OisinCooke · 29-05-2024 11:34AM

I think a west-northeast Galway LUAS would be most beneficial, and would serve the most locations on the one line. Beginning at the western end of the Western Distributor, it would serve Knocknacarra, Salthill, Shantalla, Newcastle (and by effect the University and the Hospital) and then cross the Corrib and go down Eglington Street and into Eyre Square. It would then travel up station road and through out onto Fairgreen Road (I think the Bus Station is being relocated to the western side of the station anyway in the upgrade project) before heading up Bohermore, out the Dublin Road through Renmore, then left up the Ballynane Road and finally out Bóthar na dTréabh past the Racecourse (a very lucrative stop) a P+R the end of the N6. That would be my envisaging of it anyway but as only a frequent visitor and not a resident to the city I could be overlooking certain areas.

In terms of other cities I think Limerick is the most suitable for a suburban rail project. This could be split into two lines, Adare (maybe even Newcastle West) to Nenagh via reversal at Colbert serving the likes of Patrickswell, Dooradoyle and then out the Nenagh branch, and Ennis to Limerick Jnct via reversal at Colbert. New stations could be built at Cratloe (with the possible Shannon/Shannon Airport Extension branching off here) and Ballysimon. Doubling the line at least to Limerick Jnct but ideally to Ennis and Nenagh and Adare too would be a great help.

It’s just a shame certain railway lines were closed when they were. Galway-Clifden could be integrated as part of a Clifden-Tuam ‘GART’ with new stations and P+R’s built either side of the city and Waterford to Tramore (which would still be unbelievably popular if not integrated) could have been integrated to the national network to provide Kilkenny - Tramore ‘WART’ services. Oh if I had a Time Machine…

Sam Russell · 30-05-2024 10:58AM

I would think a single line Luas in Galway that goes all around the houses would be a disaster. Short direct lines would be cheaper and serve the passengers better.

Claregalway P&R to city center would serve a huge population if it ws frequent and reliable that encouraged modal shift from car to PT. The line could be along the N17 (or whatever it is now called) or alternatively through the empty fields either side of the stone walls.

A second line from Knocknacarra to the Coolagh Roundabout would serve all the traffic generators in Galway - hospital, University, industrial estates, shopping center. The two lines can have variations if traffic warranted it.

The N6 from QCB to Coolagh has plenty of room either side except for the junctions.

A1ACo · 05-10-2024 11:04AM

The minister mentioned in a DART anniversary PR event 23 July, the idea of DART for other cities, so its a concept referenced for the future in some respect. In one of the articles some commenters welcomed the idea, and the national DART suggestion in the DART PR event was covered in the Irish Times too.

Dart service should be introduced in other cities, says Eamon Ryan (irishexaminer.com)

Eamon Ryan says DART services should be introduced in other cities (thejournal.ie)

In September, the same broad concept of public transport in other cities mentioned as a counter-balance to Dublin by the same minister, but not sure if DART-type service specifically mentioned for other cities too, but Waterford was mentioned as a becoming a model example of Transport-led development.

Housing and transport for regional cities needed to counterbalance Dublin overdevelopment, says Ryan – The Irish Times

A somewhat side note, and similar to above themes in the above IT article, there was a Town Planning conference on Thursday 03rd October by the IPI (Irish Planning Institute) that covered some of the above infrastructure themes as related also to balanced regional development, including energy, but also covered water drainage/ supply etc. - but seems only had passing mentions of public/ rail transport e.g. did mention rail line (and road) improvements to Foynes Port (Shannon Foynes Port was one of the topics), but no mention it seems of regional rail or DART in any respect, etc.

A1ACo · 06-01-2025 11:29AM

Re: above optimistic question of 'DART', commuter and more double-tracking of rail lines for the 'regional' cities, I had been wondering recently if the negotiations for the forming of a new government would include demands for such, as a counter-balance to Dublin (and potentially outside of the Strategic Railway Review report recommendations), though I see again this morning more newspaper headlines regards possible demands for more roads and possible rethinking of the more recent years stated 2:1 public transport - roads ratio, as part of the government rethink and negotiations.

Hopefully there wont be too much pendulum swinging and over-compensation transport policy wise (though its hard sometimes not to think that some regional roads, and footpaths in some suburbs, need fixing up ahead of resurfacing of some primary roads, or for building new roads).

Anyway, it might be interesting to see if some rail schemes in Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Athlone etc. get some prioritisation, or new rail schemes etc. in the negotiations and including further to:

Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR) - Page 10 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Galway Commuter Rail: Galway-Athenry - Page 3 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Galway - Light Rail - Page 2 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

etc. etc.!

CrabRevolution · 06-01-2025 11:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123024855#Comment_123024855

The various independents are more interested in bypasses and reopening old rail lines. Urban rail won't even come into the equation for them.

PlatformNine · 06-01-2025 04:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123024855#Comment_123024855

I am really hoping that as D+ and CACR progress, we can keep that momentum for other areas. I would be really dissapointed if the "new" government takes a complete 180 on PT funding, especially for better transport for local areas.

The project I really hope starts moving sooner than later is the Limerick Commuter Rail Network from the LSMATS. Personally I am hoping as CACR starts to gain more tangible progress it will create demand for a similar LACR/LSACR programme for the phase 2 network map. Currently it seems that most of the network is planned for post-2040 on a "as needed" basis, and before then the goal is to complete phase 1, decarbonising/electrifying the network and building the Moyross and Ballysimon stations. However I think that there will be a lot of good opportunities to invest in the network around Limerick, especially with plans to further electrify/decarbonise the IC and freight network. And IE build off of those investments to make a some type of LACR programme.

I am also hopping there will be some planned improvements around Galway in the GMATS, which I think is supposed to release this year? I am not expecting much but I am at least hoping they want begin works to twin-track to Athenry rather than having it be an "post-204X" type project. As well as to at least start planning for decarbonisation when the 2800s reach of end-of-life around 2040.

KrisW1001 · 06-01-2025 06:34PM

All of the current “DART” services rely on existing lines. On that basis, we have the following resources to play with:

Cork, with two approaches: Midleton/Cóbh - Kent; Kent - Mallow
Limerick, two approaches: Limerick Jn - Colbert; Colbert - Ennis
Waterford, with three approaches: Carrick-on-Suir - City,
Galway, one approach: Athenry - Galway, maybe Tuam-Galway, Gort-Galway if WRC gets extended.
Mullinavat - City, Campile (maybe Wellington Bridge) - City.

Apart from Cork, all of these are single-track ways, so there’s a lot of money that needs to be spent before even considering an electrification programme.

Also, some of these are just in the wrong place: Waterford in particular looks good with a number of lines converging on the city’s station, but in reality is very badly served for where people actually live: the railway does catch South Tipp to the west, but the alignment avoids the population centres of Slieverue and New Ross on the east; there’s also no link at all to the bulk of the city’s housing to the south and to Tramore, a major dormitory town.

(Galway is similarly goosed, with no line west of the Corrib)

If this is to become something real, then a lot of money will need to be spent on it, and honestly if that much is being spent on rail, I’d rather see trams first.

blanch152 · 06-01-2025 07:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026698#Comment_123026698

There is Foynes in Limerick as well.

What about a LUAS line from Tramore via Waterford Airport to Ferrybank, opening up development areas?

KrisW1001 · 06-01-2025 10:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026898#Comment_123026898

Ah yes, I forgot Foynes, but if it's used as a freight railway that's going to rule out use for passengers.

For Waterford, yes my box of crayons would draw a light rail from Tramore, heading to the airport so that it then comes in along the more populated Dunmore Road corridor, to serve the hospital and the city centre/station, but the terrain makes it very expensive. Still probably a lot cheaper than a new heavy rail link, though.

The existing Tramore Road is, of course, the bed of the dismantled Waterford-Tramore railway, but that has no space for a tramway, and besides, for most of its length it serves nothing: Ideally, you want a light rail with useful stops all along its length.

Light rail speculation for other cities probably deserves its own thread, though.

PlatformNine · 07-01-2025 12:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026698#Comment_123026698

As expensive as it may be some of the lines that need upgrading are already in need of upgrades for planned improvements to IC, regional, and freight services. The introduction of RT services might only need minimal improvements compared to what is already needed, and might at least help justify the investments.

For Galway, there isn't much to say, twin-tracking Galway-Athenry is going to be needed to increase frequency to what IE wants and what the corridor needs. And electrificaiton of the line will also likely be an important part of meeting carbon emission goals and achieving AISRR reccomendations. However you are right in that the back bone of transit for the city will likely be a Luas line. But upgrading this corridor to meet IC and regional service goals should still leave room for a decent commuter services, and given it is only the one line, likely wouldn't need many units to maintain a good frequency.

Limerick is similar, however at least there is an opportunity to make a strong network, as there are 6 potential lines/branches. Already active are the LJ, Nenagh, and Ennis lines, soon to be active is the Foynes line and it additonally has the mothballed Mungret branch, the only branch that doesn't have tracks laid is the proposed Shannon airport branch.

Limerick-LJ will need to be twin-tracked and electrified to support the improved freight, IC, and LJ services with or without commuter a rail programme. And With the passenger numbers Ennis currently sees, twin tracking the whole Limerick-Ennis section would be a good investment, especially considering the potential increase in passengers there would be with proper commuter services. Though I can see how the investment might still be difficult to justify on its own. However, If the airport branch is built the Ennis line will need upgrades to support Ennis, WRC, and airport passenger and freight services.

The Foynes and Mungret lines I think might be more difficult to invest in as unlike the two I mentioned above, they don't need upgrades from existing or planned future services. Justifying twin-tracking, especially without passenger numbers which are of course impossible to see without building the line first. However because Limerick-Mungret and Limerick-Raheen are both only about 5km, half of which is shared, they could decide its more economical to complete the works all at once. Eitherway the difficult and expensive infrastructure would be finding a better way to get those services into Limerick Colbert without needing to reverse, which would be difficult, but also realistically needed if they want to introduce commuter services. However even single tracked, because they are short branches they could still likely manage a decent frequency provided enough stations have two platforms. The only line I think would be really difficult to justify upgrades to is the Nenagh line. I believe they are struggling to justify upgrading the signaling system on the line let alone anything significant. I think the most investment it would see anytime soon is the Birdhill second platform being reinstated, as that could at least allow for an hourly service.

There is a lot of potential in a Limerick system, although you are right it could be very expensive. However at least the LJ and Ennis lines should see improvements for reasons other than building a commuter network, and the Shannon airport link should be built to allow the freight and passenger connection. I will say Mungret and Raheen commuters I think are the more questionable investment depending on how much is needed. I agree there needs to be light rail investment, and I am dissapointed there didn't seem to be any considerations for a Luas Limerick project.

LXFlyer · 07-01-2025 08:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026698#Comment_123026698

Also the Nenagh line for Limerick.

loco_scolo · 07-01-2025 09:50AM

It would be useful to bring the AIRR (All Island Rail Review) into this discussion. The AIRR is focused on the main infrastructure between towns and cities, rather than specific commuter systems within those towns and cities. However, the latter cannot exist without the former.

The AIRR should be broken into clear distinct phases, each with their own project management and construction teams. This should be done as a Governmental Policy, with appropriate ministerial support and funding commitments.

Each phase can start immediately and exist concurrently. Every upgrade made within one phase enables that section to move onto the "to-do" list of the next project management team.

AIRR / Commuter Rail Distinct Phases:

• Double Tracking all main lines, triple/quad tracking strategic sections near cities, level crossing removals/upgrades, passing loops where more appropriate on regional lines

• Electrifying lines which are already double/quad tracked

• Reopening and/or rebuilding disused lines - Navan, WRC, Waterford-Wexford, others?...

• New Lines - Maynooth-HH, Shannon Airport, Portadown-Derry, Athlone-Mullingar-Portadown, others?..

• Commuter Systems - new stations, existing station upgrades, enhanced station access (new connecting roads, new pedestrian/cycle paths, P+R, improved bus interchange...)

A1ACo · 07-01-2025 12:27PM

It would seem from some of the opinions given here previously, that commuter rail services into the 'regional' cities would be more beneficial than a focus on higher speeds for inter-city travel (but would appear less exciting). This is insofar as Commuter rail services into the regional cities might have a better impact on helping to alleviate housing pressures, and counter-balancing Dublin region, than focusing on the inter-city improvements.

From one other perspective as well, that of international investors, and international tourists; it may be a case of not what we have, but what we don't - which is much in the way of rail services into the regional cities - i.e. little of commuter services/ double-tracks/ electrification - which may appear to some (more used to other more well rail served European or Asian countries) as appearing a little odd and small country-ish.

Continuing that international perspective, they would probably expect there to be good roads and would not necessarily be impressed with more roads, and roads (of various standards) are not really in short supply in Ireland.

Improving the existing rail services along existing routes in the regional cities (and including new stations) would appear to be one path of least resistance, and also in the media at least, economists and think-tanks appear to be screaming at the government to make capital expenditures.

It may also be a case with any new commuter stations to the regional cities, to be not so much a case of serving existing residents and businesses so much (in close proximity), but for potential new developments. Not having looked at City and County Council Development Plan's zoned lands near the regional cities, it may be interesting to see what lands are zoned, and what flooding, environmental or visual etc. impacts or total lands already zoned restrictions there may be.

In any case, development land residential and commercial has to go somewhere, and it might as well go around new stations on existing and improved rail routes into existing regional cities.

It would be interesting to see what developments like at Adamstown in Lucan, Dublin would be like if transposed to some of the fields around some of the existing rail lines into the regional cities, though the various town planning guidelines, City and County Development Plans and greater densities policies may well deal with new developments without having to wait for specific SDZs (Strategic Development Zones) or Local Area Plans.

Rural D Area Rapid Transit ? (R-DART)

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