Rural D Area Rapid Transit ? (R-DART)

A1ACo

Limerick (LART)

Does a future Electrified, frequent, city/ suburban commuter service for Limerick City area (LART/ LAT (Area Transit)) – deserve a topic thread?

LART questions to ask:

BEMU &/ or cascaded DMU’s operation first?

Use of re-refurbished old LHB DARTs as EMU service first?

Train and platform lengths?

IF BEMU – charging locations?

Station location – a couple of stations over 2km on lines either side of central station?

EMU line voltage – 1.5kV DC / 3kV DC, or 25 kV AC?

{its also Election Time!}

A few previous topic threads below for ‘reading around the topic’!

Railway electrification — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

First Dublin DART+ battery-electric multiple-unit (youtube.com)

Mention of Limerick after minute 7.

Moyross Train Station - Page 3 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Railway Orders — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

DART+ (DART Expansion) - Page 336 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

L1011

8100s are beyond refurbing for long term use at this stage

ricimaki

Of all of the threads you've opened, Limerick is probably the most realistic, as the city has a few railway lines surrounding it passing through or near some populated areas.

Plenty of options for stations in Dooradoyle, Raheen, Corbally, Moyross and Ballysimon, and can easily extend out along the mainline beyond each of these. Some P&R options here too. Single track on most of the lines isn't ideal, but given the relatively low frequencies needed, and potential for passing loops at certain area's, its not too bad.

Difficult to cover Castletroy, Annacotty (not the business park…) and Caherdavin…

EMU's are always preferable. Most important thing with voltage selection is that it's consistent across the country - at some point in the future, we're going to want to have EMU's running regional and intercity services.

I think one of the biggest issues with commuter rail in Limerick is the routing into Colbert itself - the Foynes line turns away from Colbert. The old bridge into Colbert would have to be rebuilt, but the platforms would be short, and require reversing for actual serviceable lines (eg Patrickswell to Castleconnell). Honestly, while there is certainly some works required, I don't think it would be massive. 1 building would have to be demolished, and then its building through fields/car parks.

There are also a few level crossings which would be nice to remove, but not the biggest issue/highest priority here.

scrabtom

I’m disappointed to see the GART thread locked. I would have been interested to see what people thought about it.

Sam Russell

Mod: I think renaming this thread for DART lines for cities and towns outside of Dublin. Having one for each one of possible projects dilutes the discussion because they would all be similar.

So Galway, Limerick Cork, or Waterford would all be covered.

scrabtom

I don’t think there’s much of a case for something like this in Waterford anyway.

The station isn’t that close to most of the offices/factories in the city (aside from any offices they end up putting in the North Quays). There’s also not many people living along the line in either the Kilkenny or the Wexford direction. The only settlement I can really think of in either direction is Mullinavat, which only has a population of 233 according to Wikipedia.

the_amazing_raisin

The focus in Dublin seems to be around more Luas lines or the imaginary Metro North

Adding more commuter railways would require thought and planning from Irish Rail, which seems to be a firing offence there

So, it seems more likely that tram lines like the LUAS would be viable for other cities in Ireland

I could definitely see it as feasible in many cities, 2-3 lines through the city centre would cover a significant amount of the population

IMO the main focus for railways should be intercity and long distance commuting services

In my ideal world there'd be high speed rail services linking all the cities in Ireland (not just to Dublin) and someone living in Cork or Limerick who needs to travel to Dublin for work could take a short walk to the tram, take the tram to the station and board a high speed train to Dublin City, and then get another tram to near their office. Total journey time 1.5-2 hours

I know that isn't nothing but if you needed to get into Dublin City for 9am from Cork you'd probably be leaving before 6am these days

Also there'd be a rail tunnel to the UK so you could get a high speed train to anywhere in Europe

Yeah, I know it'll never happen in a million years, but I'm allowed to dream 😂

A1ACo

Hi, the intention had not been to lob in a grenade and walk away (though i did go out for dinner and a walk etc after posting the topics!)!

The use of versions of DART was very simply because, I thought it would very quickly get across the intention, and also, I was attempting to approach the idea in a nationwide and nationally understandable fashion - similar to the easy to understand branding of all the national colleges until recent years i.e. previous - TCD, UCD, UCC, UCG, … (it would be a bit of a challenge I surmise, for most to now to identify those university's new names/ acronyms).

I also did think of using just one heading for potential non-Dublin, and non-Cork electric services but, I considered that there could be too much ping-ponging between the different parts of the country, specific considerations and their details, that would be confusing within one thread.

Otherwise, I was thinking of independent de-centralisation (away from Dublin), and fairly tight/ small shuttle type systems, focussed on existing stations/ locations - but encouraging more density and employment - and potentially new areas of development in-between e.g. similar to SDZs (strategic development zones), or just on zoned development land/ preferably around existing towns/ villages/ etc. but in the hinterlands/ some proximity of the other cities besides Dublin and Cork.

scrabtom

With regards to Galway, you'd imagine that there'd be an opportunity for a commuter rail service between Athenry and Galway at least. I know there's talks of significant developments near the existing Oranmore station, and you'd imagine there could be the same around new stations on the line, plus maybe a stop in Oranmore itself if that's possible.

The first steps of expanding Ceannt station, building the passing loop at Oranmore and then double tracking the line all seem like they are happening or will happen in the not so distant future. All you should need then if you use the BEMUs is somewhere to charge them and somewhere to store and maintain them, and then the stations of course. Considering you wouldn't need many trains for such a short length of track I don't know whether you'd need a new depot or anything like that.

I don't know too much about the rail infrastructure or the feasibility of building developments along that stretch of track so I would be interested to hear from someone who has a bit more local knowledge.

Sam Russell

I think Galway would be better served by a Luas scheme.

Say a line from Claregalway to Salthill by way of Eyre Square, and another along the Western Distributor Road via the QCB and the N6 to the Coolagh Roundabout and perhaps as far Oranmore. P&R should be added where possible and needed.

A new bridge next to the QCB for the Luas might be needed.

The Luas proposed would serve the hospital, the University, and most of the industrial estate, plus the city centre. A train from Athenry, even with dual tracking would serve very few.

scrabtom

I agree that a Luas system in Galway would probably be more useful, but I imagine it would be quite a lot more expensive that a Dart like service from Ceannt to Athenry, and quite a lot more difficult planning wise.

There's not an awful lot of space to develop in Galway so I think the main aim of a commuter rail service would be to open up the land along the rail line for development.

Ideally we would have both but outside of the very long term I think that's unrealistic.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189263#Comment_122189263

Cost is not relevant if the project achieves little. A rail system that is based on the existing train line will serve next to no-one. It does not go near any traffic generators like the hospital or university nor any industrial estates.

With a bad start, it is usual to result in a bad ending. If it is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188894#Comment_122188894

Why not east-west from Bearna to Oranmore, through Eyre Square, with the second line north-south from Claregalway to Eyre Square.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189403#Comment_122189403

You could be right I suppose. Maybe if there was a Luas line going from the University and the Hospital to Eyre Square, then up either the Wellpark Road or the Tuam Road as far as the industrial estates in Ballybrit, and then down to somewhere like Roscam to connect again with a new station on the rail line it might make more sense.

The chances of that are slim to none anyway. When you put the cost of those two things with the billion Euro needed for the bypass (which absolutely must be built in my opinion), it becomes just too much money for the government to realistically invest in the local transport network of a city with only 85,000 people living in it.

I would love to be proved wrong about that.

Sam Russell

I would build the Luas in Galway rather than the bypass.

Get people out of cars and onto public transport, cycles, and walking. Provide P&R to allow the last few Kms by active travel.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189421#Comment_122189421

The land take required will ensure this never happens. Barna and beyond will never get proper PT because of ribbon development and many expensive houses along the coast, of which some would definitely need knocked as inland is too hilly for any routing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188894#Comment_122188894

There is little population centers between claregalway and the city itself, it is not a great candidate for a luas. Almost 5km between stops if that were the case.

A spur west of oranmore station veering north through all farmland that will eventually be Ardaun and other new higher density suburbs would be better, it could connect with parkmore east and then continue to Claregalway through farmland the whole way.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189617#Comment_122189617

The Luas to Claregalway would be a conduit for the P&R that would allow all those beyond Claregalway out towards Tuam, Mount Bellew, and other parts, to drive as far the P&R and travel quickly into the city center. It could travel across open farm land to connect with the N6 (Bothar na dTreabh) near the New Cemetery, and then into Shop Street.

A1ACo

What struck me years ago taking the train to Galway City, was that just before the city there was .. nothing… and that the idea that before a main city train station that that would be the case, and only single track for much of the approach, and no other stations before it, seemed very strange.

In saying that, there obviously are some settlements, just not much. But as above, it would seem that in the circa 6km from Galway Ceannt station to Oranmore station, that there a good few fields that could be developed for say somewhat higher density than existing residential development mostly around there, and certainly a number of fields surrounding Oranmore station for development, and a nice looking field for an additional station and development to the east and just east of the light industrial etc area north of Oranmore proper.

The question of rail facilitating development, or development facilitating rail (tail wagging the dog!) was expressed at the time of the proposed Red Line Luas Extension out to Citywest/ Saggart (that extension of the line was built), and similar questions raised for the Green Line south extension proposed to Fassaroe west of Bray (not built). But in a time of housing pressure, the oft heard about in recent times idea of - transit based development - could possibly apply to Galway (and Limerick etc.) i.e. if development and any assistance for it was to be made by government - around rail lines on edge of regional cities would seem a good approach, and a good excuse as any for funding, including to build to somewhat higher densities.

OisinCooke

I think a west-northeast Galway LUAS would be most beneficial, and would serve the most locations on the one line. Beginning at the western end of the Western Distributor, it would serve Knocknacarra, Salthill, Shantalla, Newcastle (and by effect the University and the Hospital) and then cross the Corrib and go down Eglington Street and into Eyre Square. It would then travel up station road and through out onto Fairgreen Road (I think the Bus Station is being relocated to the western side of the station anyway in the upgrade project) before heading up Bohermore, out the Dublin Road through Renmore, then left up the Ballynane Road and finally out Bóthar na dTréabh past the Racecourse (a very lucrative stop) a P+R the end of the N6. That would be my envisaging of it anyway but as only a frequent visitor and not a resident to the city I could be overlooking certain areas.

In terms of other cities I think Limerick is the most suitable for a suburban rail project. This could be split into two lines, Adare (maybe even Newcastle West) to Nenagh via reversal at Colbert serving the likes of Patrickswell, Dooradoyle and then out the Nenagh branch, and Ennis to Limerick Jnct via reversal at Colbert. New stations could be built at Cratloe (with the possible Shannon/Shannon Airport Extension branching off here) and Ballysimon. Doubling the line at least to Limerick Jnct but ideally to Ennis and Nenagh and Adare too would be a great help.

It’s just a shame certain railway lines were closed when they were. Galway-Clifden could be integrated as part of a Clifden-Tuam ‘GART’ with new stations and P+R’s built either side of the city and Waterford to Tramore (which would still be unbelievably popular if not integrated) could have been integrated to the national network to provide Kilkenny - Tramore ‘WART’ services. Oh if I had a Time Machine…

Sam Russell

I would think a single line Luas in Galway that goes all around the houses would be a disaster. Short direct lines would be cheaper and serve the passengers better.

Claregalway P&R to city center would serve a huge population if it ws frequent and reliable that encouraged modal shift from car to PT. The line could be along the N17 (or whatever it is now called) or alternatively through the empty fields either side of the stone walls.

A second line from Knocknacarra to the Coolagh Roundabout would serve all the traffic generators in Galway - hospital, University, industrial estates, shopping center. The two lines can have variations if traffic warranted it.

The N6 from QCB to Coolagh has plenty of room either side except for the junctions.

A1ACo

The minister mentioned in a DART anniversary PR event 23 July, the idea of DART for other cities, so its a concept referenced for the future in some respect. In one of the articles some commenters welcomed the idea, and the national DART suggestion in the DART PR event was covered in the Irish Times too.

Dart service should be introduced in other cities, says Eamon Ryan (irishexaminer.com)

Eamon Ryan says DART services should be introduced in other cities (thejournal.ie)

In September, the same broad concept of public transport in other cities mentioned as a counter-balance to Dublin by the same minister, but not sure if DART-type service specifically mentioned for other cities too, but Waterford was mentioned as a becoming a model example of Transport-led development.

Housing and transport for regional cities needed to counterbalance Dublin overdevelopment, says Ryan – The Irish Times

A somewhat side note, and similar to above themes in the above IT article, there was a Town Planning conference on Thursday 03rd October by the IPI (Irish Planning Institute) that covered some of the above infrastructure themes as related also to balanced regional development, including energy, but also covered water drainage/ supply etc. - but seems only had passing mentions of public/ rail transport e.g. did mention rail line (and road) improvements to Foynes Port (Shannon Foynes Port was one of the topics), but no mention it seems of regional rail or DART in any respect, etc.