Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

Options
1252628303135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Just read the article now. It is very well-balanced and evidential.

    It concisely puts to bed all the misinformation and outright lies about the Cass Report and, more pressingly, how clinicians — such as the author himself, a decades-experienced psychiatrist — have had to work within a climate of fear and intimidation.

    What an utterly shameful episode in medical history, the number of children's lives permanently destroyed for absolutely no good reason.

    In light of this report and the WPATH files themselves, I personally consider anyone who continues to push this "treatment" pathway onto children to be nothing short of evil.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    That article says far more about Bells well known biases than it does about the Cass report. The "poor me" bit is very telling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,159 ✭✭✭plodder


    He was a consultant psychiatrist who worked in adult gender services at GIDS from 1995 until he retired a few years ago. When he wrote his whistle-blowing report, the GIDS trust tried to silence him and threatened him with disciplinary action. Someone younger and less close to retirement might well have capitulated, or never spoken out, like all the other clinicians at GIDS, who expressed their concerns to him in private. That's not the way to run a health service.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    He did not work in GIDs, he worked in adult mental health department at the Tavistocks trust. He had nothing to do with GIDs until he inserted himself into it. A man who doesn't actual believe that gender affirmative treatment should ever be used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    You forgot to mention that it’s “important work” plodder 😏

    That it’s in the Guardian doesn’t mean so much as it’s written by David Bell, the snivelling sycophant. At least the Guardian has never pretended to be impartial or objective, they’ll just print whatever they imagine will increase their revenue. They’re a media outlet, not a medical or scientific journal, safe to say they will only be interested in playing politics and playing both sides off each other while they stand to make a profit:

    Take Dr David Bell, the psychiatrist behind a critical report of the Tavistock centre,and who has welcomed the Cass review. Bell is often presented as a moderate critic of Gids and yet has argued that trans children do not exist in nature but have been invented, and that cases of gender dysphoria in children can be explained by confusion caused by sexuality, confusion caused by neurodiversity, confusion caused by abuse, trauma or mental health conditions but, crucially, never by that child being, either solely or in addition to other factors, transgender.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 7,159 ✭✭✭plodder


    He was a staff governor at GIDS, elected to represent clinicians to the board. I'd say you are misquoting him there that gender affirmative treatment should never be used.

    I see him described above as "sniveling sycophant" which is exactly the kind of toxic talk that Cass complained about.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Ha! Snivelling sycophant - the person who was one of the first to publicly and methodically raise concerns in this area, and who's referenced in the Cass Report?

    You couldn't make this nonsense up, could you?

    And all while there's no actual points being made - just hurl abuse and see what sticks, in defence of their "rights" to experiment on kids and pump chemicals cocktails into them

    Disgraceful, yet sadly not surprising



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Many activists go for the man instead of the ball because deep down, they know that the medical evidence isn't on their side. They know it perfectly well. That would also explain why certain trusts refused to provide evidence to the Cass Report. It demonstrates a certain insecurity. They don't have the arguments or evidence, so they attack the person; it's Ad hominem on steroids. The Cass Report exposed that insecurity and — surprise, surprise — Cass gets threatened and abused, along with the usual predictable attempts to discredit her person as well as her professional credentials. Utterly failed attempts, but attempts nonetheless.

    There's no way back from this report, though.

    Medical professionals cannot be expected to suspend the Hippocratic oath they are sworn to uphold just because some ridiculous ideologues aren't happy about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Bell is repeating his own biases for all the world to see and claiming he is vindicated. He is nothing of the sort. He was treated the way he was by the GIDs administration staff because they clearly saw his agenda.

    Can anyone explain to me what clinical roll he served in the GIDs unit.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Oh for sure - they can't make a point because at this stage there isn't one to make

    They just have to hit at the source and hope they can deflect there cos there's nothing else

    But there's too many sources now. The usual mob will continue to whine and abuse but their relevance is fast dwindling. (I was impressed earlier in thread as to how many people seemed to have OEJ on their ignore lists; he was barely getting a bite for pages on end. More of that please! 😃)



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Treatment centres expanded, more and better services and clinical studies into puberty blockers. That to me is a result for all gender dyphoric children.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    As a respected psychiatrist with decades of experience, Bell has all the experience needed to formulate a professional, medical opinion on what was then experimental medicine. There were no "experts", only doctors — some of whom advocated the Dutch affirmation model and others, like Dr Bell, who thought this was a highly questionable approach.

    The Cass Report concluded that Dr Bell and his equivalent were correct in their assessment.

    Rather than rubbishing healthcare professionals, I would suggest listening to and implementing the recommendations in the report is a far higher priority. Not for ideological reasons but because the healthcare of children should not be cynically weaponized in this manner.

    We cannot close our eyes and ears to evidence we don't like.

    That's not how medicine operates or improves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Yes, biases. You're absolutely, ideologically biased.

    Who to believe? You or people with decades of experience? 🤔

    Post edited by Birneybau on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Bells position is not what will happen because Dr Bell shares your extremist ideological agenda. Treatment will be based on best available evidence and appropriate candidate children will continue to receive gender affirming treatments because to deny them such treatments is unethical. All treatments will be subjected to ethical review and those which meet the needs of the patients will be carried forward.

    As I said before all claims of a victory for your ideologically driven agenda will ultimately fall far short of the ultimate reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Anyone who alleges that experienced paediatricians and psychiatrists involved are "biased" are correct; in that they are biased in favour of the best available medical evidence.

    Anyone who seeks to downplay or undermine that evidence is biased against medicine.

    I know which of the two groups I am willing to listen to, and which I am willing to wholesale ignore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Bell has shown his biased by his actions since retiring. He is an activist who associates with other anti trans activists.

    The reason you agree with him is because you are cut from the same cloth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Dr Bell shares your extremist ideological agenda…

    I believe that children should be given the best possible healthcare, in line with the best available medical evidence, for the condition they suffer from.

    If that's an "extremist ideological agenda", then I'm lost for words at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    So you agree that a transgender child should receive gender affirming treatments ?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    "I was a senior consultant psychiatrist, and it was in my role as staff representative on the trust council of governors that a large number of the Gids clinicians approached me with their grave concerns. "

    This is bizarre. 10 whistle blowers, roughly a third of the staff, went to him as they felt their problems inside GIDS were being ignored and you seem to think he's in the wrong.

    Not 1 whistle blower, 10!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Well gender affirming treatment is in line with no available medical evidence.

    So it's unlikely the poster would consider it in line with "best available medical evidence" don't you think?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    So transgender people shouldn't receive gender affirming treatments. No transgender person should be offered it ?

    That really is a very extreme position you are taking, but that not really a surprise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Yes, the Cass Report recommends that children presenting with identity issues should not be affirmed; that the protocol is actively harmful to children; that it doesn't improve suicidality rates etc. A "holistic" approach is needed to ensure that children's identity issues are properly defined / addressed.

    Protecting children from harm is not extreme, it's called evidence-based medicine.

    In contrast, throwing evidence-based medicine to one side to suit the needs of non-medical activist-based ideological nonsense is absolutely extremist — particularly when the victims of that activism are very vulnerable children.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yup, exactly that

    I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about that tbh



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I see him described above as "sniveling sycophant" which is exactly the kind of toxic talk that Cass complained about.


    Of course it is, because when anyone expresses their opinions in the public domain, it doesn’t follow that they are entitled to be protected from criticism. That much is obvious to anyone, long before Cass stated the obvious in her report.

    Oh for sure - they can't make a point because at this stage there isn't one to make


    On the contrary - the Cass report is just one report among many. It didn’t offer anything new in terms of the treatment of gender Incongruence in children. All it managed to accomplish was adding more fuel to the fire, as opposed to offering anything useful or worthwhile in terms of NHS policy and the treatment of gender incongruence in children. The NHS had already determined that an holistic approach was necessary, which is in line with standard practice in modern medicine.

    Medical professionals cannot be expected to suspend the Hippocratic oath they are sworn to uphold just because some ridiculous ideologues aren't happy about it.


    The Hippocratic Oath hasn’t been a thing in Medicine for decades. It’s long been superseded by Codes of Medical Ethics and Good Medical Practices overseen by the GMC in the UK. I won’t refer to you as a ridiculous ideologue simply because you’re not familiar with ethics in modern medicine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I asked you a specific question not for your opinion of what Cass recommended for transgender children.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    It is quite telling when people will attack individuals over the actual reports, and try and undermine the individuals. It is pretty pathetic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    A very interesting overview of her report from Dr Cass, which is not at all what it is portrayed to be by contributors here. Of note is her praise of expanded holistic services and the fact that clinical study is to be embedded into all the subsequent work for gender dysphoric children. A level and balanced way forward where no child will be denied the care their clinician demonstrates they need.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q814



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Yes, the Cass Report recommends that children presenting with identity issues should not be affirmed

    The Cass report makes no such recommendation. What the report says specifically is:

    12.36 The information above demonstrates that there is no clear evidence that social transition in childhood has positive or negative mental health outcomes. There is relatively weak evidence for any effect in adolescence. However, sex of rearing seems to have some influence on eventual gender outcome, and it is possible that social transition in childhood may change the trajectory of gender identity development for children with early gender incongruence. For this reason, a more cautious approach needs to be taken for children than for adolescents:

    Children:

    • Parents should be encouraged to seek clinical help and advice in deciding how to support a child with gender incongruence and should be prioritised on the waiting list for early consultation on this issue.
    • Clinical involvement in the decision-making process should include advising on the risks and benefits of social transition as a planned intervention, referencing best available evidence. This is not a role that can be taken by staff without appropriate clinical training.
    • It is important to ensure that the voice of the child is heard in any decision making and that parents are not unconsciously influencing the child’s gender expression.
    • For those going down a social transition pathway, maintaining flexibility and keeping options open by helping the child to understand their body as well as their feelings is likely to be advantageous. Partial rather than full transition may be a way of ensuring flexibility, particularly given the MPRG report which highlighted that being in stealth from early childhood may add to the stress of impending puberty and the sense of urgency to enter a medical pathway.

    https://cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CassReview_Final.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Dr Bell has revealed himself as an anti trans activists, his word is not worthy of serious respect from those seeking the best outcomes for gender dysphoric children.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    And what qualifications to you possess to say that a doctor is not worthy of serious respect?



Advertisement