World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067439#Comment_122067439

If they show bias then I whole heartedly accept that duty.

Shoog

There is a significant problem with conclusions of the Cass report. It downgrades evidence of benefits of puberty blockers as been poor evidence based on the lack of double blind studies. However in the case of many medical studies a double blind study is implicitly unethical as it prescribed a withholding of treatment which can itself cause significant harm. There are study methodologies which do not rely on double blind tests and they do produce robust statistical conclusions - by excluding them from analysis as Dr Cass did she dilutes her conclusions rather than enhancing them.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067457#Comment_122067457

So you have exactly no qualifications or information, you are doing so for your biases…oh the irony

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067472#Comment_122067472

His association with actively anti trans groups is really all the evidence I need to draw my conclusion.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067481#Comment_122067481

You are making my point for me, you are attacking the person, not the information.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067471#Comment_122067471

Have you just been paying zero attention to any reporting about the report at all? This is all nonsense that was highlighted as nonsense over a week ago.

The grading system used for the studies was explicitly for non double blind studies.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067491#Comment_122067491

She treated a whole raft of legitimate studies as unsound. That's really not acceptable. She gave them very low weight which is not quite as bad as dismissing them out of hand but almost.

She also met and accepted evidence from groups who do not accept transgenderism as a legitimate condition - further weakening her conclusions.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067628#Comment_122067628

Do yourself a favour and listen to this BBC radio 4 report on exactly this…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hry4wj

CatFromHue

The studies were treated as unsound because they are unsound. That's nothing to do with the outcome of the study but the sample size and methodology used to get it.

Well low and very low quality to be exact and that means

Low The true effect might be markedly different from the estimated effect. Very Low The true effect is probably markedly different from the estimated effect.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067628#Comment_122067628

"She" didn't do anything as she didn't carry out the literature review.

Are you just going to try and bulldoze your way through your incredibly incorrect statement about double blind studies? It suggests you have not read the review nor any of the material discussing the review or the many clarifications that have been provided about the review after it has been misrepresented.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067628#Comment_122067628

This misinformation has been discredited a long time ago.

So much so, that a Labour MP who parroted the same propagandistic untruths in parliament returned to parliament only a few days ago to retract her statement — she did not want to mislead the house. Dawn Butler met with Dr Cass, and the latter provided all the evidence needed to rebut the nonsense lies that were gaining traction on social media.

ceadaoin.

So latest stance from the activists is that somehow this report is simultaneously good for young trans people and won't stop their treatment but expand it, yet also it's a load of nonsense that didn't take proper evidence into account? All depending on the point they want to make? Delusional sounds about right. Meanwhile the adults know what the conclusions of the report were and changes will be made accordingly, no matter how many people scream that it's transphobic to not allow children to consent to sterilisation, bone disease and more.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067649#Comment_122067649

"More or less" is a great podcast in general.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067770#Comment_122067770

Increased availability of treatment will be good for people who previously had to wait for up to a decade. The conclusions about gender affirmative treatments will be bad for many people who will find it more difficult to access certain treatments - but the increased speed of assessment will mean that on balance most will benefit. When a person has been assessed as been transgender it is no longer ethical for their clinician to withhold gender affirmative treatments and they will progress - undoubtedly faster than under the old system.

In short no ethical gender dysphoric specialist treatment clinician will withhold gender affirming treatments based upon the Cass report because to do so could leave them open to malpractice proceedings.

cdeb

The irony here is Shoog is playing an absolute blinder for the Cass Report and the move away from gender affirmation and puberty blockers by virtue of his singular inability to raise a single valid point in his arguments, and by instead regurgitating already-debunked points or just going all-out attack the source

Keep up the good work Shoog!

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067628#Comment_122067628

I really do love that you call one study unsound but the other studies were perfectly legitimate. How can you not see the complete irony and dogmatic nature of your position here?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067770#Comment_122067770

Delusional sounds about right.

It does, but not the way you’re attempting to portray it. For example when you say ‘the adults know what the conclusions of the report were’, it’s evident from just this thread alone, that there are adults who do not know what the conclusions of the report were. Furthermore the idea that ‘changes will be made accordingly’ suggests that any changes proposed are independent of the NHS being a publicly funded failure of an organisation.
By that I mean the NHS were already making changes in policy before the final report had even been published, and the NHS has moved on to commissioning a similar report for the adult gender clinics, which will similarly have as much of an effect in transforming children’s gender clinics within the NHS - that is to say, not much, given that the Cass report as a whole recommended to the NHS a complete transformation by restructuring the medical system to address how transgender youth receive care in the UK.

As for whether or not children can consent to treatment, that was not addressed in the report, because it was deemed to be outside the scope of the Review:

Has the Review recommended that no one should transition before the age of 25 and that Gillick competence should be overturned. 

No.  The Review has not commented on the use of masculinising/feminising hormones on people over the age of 18. This is outside of the scope of the Review. The Review has not stated that Gillick competence should be overturned.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/final-report-faqs/

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067814#Comment_122067814

There is no "positive spin" that can be made on the report.

The Cass Report has torn asunder the affirmation model.

Children will now be treated as far away from that model as possible. That's a good thing.

And, as other posters have already pointed out, you cannot discredit the report with misinformation and then argue, at the same time, that the report has highly favourable outcomes from your perspective.

Because when you point out that the report cannot be relied upon for various reasons, then that directly contradicts your conclusion that the report is a net positive from your perspective.

You cannot have it both ways.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067924#Comment_122067924

The Cass Report has torn asunder the affirmation model.

It hasn’t, though it’s hardly surprising that even having read the report in full, you would still come away with that conclusion. This is how the NHS are planning on implementing the advice from the Cass Review:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-clinical-programme/implementing-advice-from-the-cass-review/

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122066060#Comment_122066060

So in a classic Catch 22, only clinicians within GIDS can make any relevant criticisms - while employees within GIDS who criticised were hounded from their jobs for trying to do so. As Yossarian found - it’s a good one, Catch 22. No way round it.

For info, Sue Evans or Sonia Appleby are two who came out publicly, and others went to David Bell in his role as staff governor. That was his role and he was perfectly qualified to do so.

About 1/4 of the entire clinical staff in London had approached Bell with concerns before he blew the whistle according to Hannah Barnes.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2024/03/inside-the-collapse-of-the-tavistock-centre

None of those claiming that David Bell is “well-known” to be biased have provided any links to back those claims up. Just an oversight no doubt- some reliable sources will be along soon Im sure.

Any time now 🙄

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067015#Comment_122067015

What you’re missing here is that David Bell has never said that transgender “people” should never be treated as the gender they wish to be. Nor that children with gender dysphoria should not be helped or treated.

Here’s what Bell actually said:

Bell is not against puberty blockers per se – “a doctor should never say never” – but he believes that halting puberty only makes it more frightening to the child: “The child will never want to come off the hormones and 98% do now stay on them. This could be a dangerous collusion on the part of the doctor. The body is not a video machine. You can’t just press a pause button. You have to ask what it really means to stop puberty.” It should be possible, he believes, to manage the distress of a child who is suffering gender dysphoria in a less interventionist way, until he or she is an adult and can make a decision: “Consent is the issue here, nothing else.” He does not doubt that some patients will want, and need, to transition in the future. But, he says, not all children with gender dysphoria are trans. The two have been elided.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids

Shoog

Its more than disturbing that a whole cohort of people would actively seek to limit appropriate treatment to a diagnosed patient for mainly ideological reasons. Do you all realise how unethical your attitude is ?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069021#Comment_122069021

He has elsewhere stated that no person under 25 should ever been considered for any gender affirmative treatments. In the statement you quoted he is indulging in public relations to try to conceal his real views.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069023#Comment_122069023

Personal opinions on this matter are irrelevant because the only thing that does matter is the medical evidence.

The evidence overwhelmingly concludes that the affirmation model is not an "appropriate treatment" model — no matter how many times you claim that it is.

The "cohort of people" that matter are medical professionals, not random citizens.

for mainly ideological reasons

Medical.

That's quite the projection, too.

Do you all realise how unethical your attitude is?

Again, more projection.

It is unethical to give vulnerable children drugs that have been shown to actively harm them. The Cass Report isn't the first study into this matter. There's a reason that other clinics throughout Europe have come to the same conclusion.

Unless you're claiming that there's a medical conspiracy in the Western world to cover up essential treatment for children, I'm not sure where you are going with this. I said before many times in this thread, it reminds me of anti-vax activists who are similarly unwilling to accept the medical evidence and who similarly argue there's a medical conspiracy to hide the best treatments.

The illogic of both positions is identical.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069028#Comment_122069028

Perhaps you don’t understand that 18 is a legal fiction. It’s not the age at which a person is actually physiologically an adult.

Moreover, you previously said he said NOBODY should ever be affirmed - now it’s only the under 25s.

So you’re contradicting yourself. You’ve also misrepresented what Dr Bell has said several times - IMO you’ve been defamatory about him. And all without a single source to back up your claims with actual quotes from him.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069044#Comment_122069044

Heres that question again, at what age does a person become transgender ?

Its important to acknowledge that a person is born transgender so withhold treatment for that is highly unethical.

If you disagree how does a person become transgender, what's the mechanism and when does it kick in.

You see I think Dr Cass is wrong.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069060#Comment_122069060

It is not possible to determine if a child is truly transgender. Most children struggling with gender identity resolve this by the time they are adults and are not transgender. That is why it is always wrong to give children puberty blockers.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069060#Comment_122069060

Its important to acknowledge that a person is born transgender so withhold treatment for that is highly unethical.

Is there any theory of child psychology that says this? I mean, you’re asking for a mechanism below, so I presume you know of a mechanism by which a child can be born in a perfectly functioning body but somehow is the “wrong” sex to its - what? its brain? its soul? What part of it is not the sex of its body and what is the mechanism?

If you disagree how does a person become transgender, what's the mechanism and when does it kick in.

AFAIK the scientific view of child development is that beliefs about personal identities “kick in” mainly around puberty, as the child separates itself from its parents and begins to see itself as a separate person with sometimes different values to those of its parents.

Of course if you know of a different theory of child development that says differently, please do share it with us.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069066#Comment_122069066

Gender identity is established well before teens. This is basic child development. Anyone who ad an adult who identified as transgender will say that they new they were transgender for as long as they were aware of gender which is well below the age of 10.

The only issue that a GIDs type service has to establish is who are those transgender children from a range of other gender dysphoric children.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069075#Comment_122069075

Do you know you are a man/women ? When did you know this ? I would hazard it was as a very young child. Its is materially no different for transgender children.