World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

cdeb

Nobody has established giving them cocaine and alcohol isn't part of the treatment either

Medicine isn't based on doing things until they're proven wrong. It's based on doing things because they're proven right.

Can I ask you to look at the question I posed to you earlier re your view on anorexics btw? Do you encourage their self-view and shield them from other views too?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041917#Comment_122041917

You really aren't interested in the actual science since you have set your heart against an effective treatment. You don't want studies to be carried out to prove it's effectiveness. You don't want to see data which shows it reduces self harm among those who receive it. You simply don't want puberty blockers to be used on gender dysphoric children and you have made this abundantly clear.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041935#Comment_122041935

I trust the word of a world-class paediatrician with decades of experience in this very area, over any activist or forum contributor. I also trust the other clinics throughout Europe that have come to exactly the same conclusions as Dr Cass.

Sorry if that makes me an extremist, but I'm willing to hedge my bets here.

You really aren't interested in the actual science since you have set your heart against an effective treatment

This is exactly the same line of argument that conspiratorial anti-vaxxers use when talking about ivermectin and COVID-19.

Both sides claim to know "the True science"; that shadowy people want to hide the science etc.

In fact, both groups are actively anti-science, and both groups are dogmatically attached to their own ideology, detached from both reality and science itself.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041935#Comment_122041935

What "actual science"?

From the very opening pages of the WPATH files -

"WPATH is not a medical group"

"WPATH is not a scientific group"

"WPATH has misled the public"

"WPATH has abandoned the Hippocratic oath"

This is as unscientific as it's possible to get.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041941#Comment_122041941

I trust the actual experts in their field - the actual people administering treatment.

You do understand that in order to for fill Dr Cass recommendation more puberty blockers must be delivered, and in order to establish a robust statistical model more children need to be using them.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041950#Comment_122041950

You are using an activists report to make your case. Please.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041953#Comment_122041953

Doctors practicing experimental medicine does not automatically make them "experts"; it makes them doctors.

You yourself have just admitted:

in order to establish a robust statistical model more children need to be using them.

The implication of which is that we currently do not know the long-term harm that these drugs cause children because there isn't the evidence to support their initial use to begin with. However inadvertent, that supports the very point I have been making.

The treatment protocol from those doctors has not only been shown to be defective, but counter to how medical protocol should be followed, and — worse than that — actively harmful toward children.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041956#Comment_122041956

No I'm not.

But hey ho - you can't argue against what the report says, so you just attack the authors. Typical really.

Want to answer the question on anorexics btw? Would you support their self-image and shield them from other views?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041965#Comment_122041965

The implication is that Dr Cass has greenlighted an expansion in puberty blockers use in order to carry out a scientific study. As I have said on numerous occasions there will be very little change in those who get puberty blockers just that in future they will be more closely monitored.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041953#Comment_122041953

Hmm. A "robust statistical model" you say?

Do you accept that Dr Cass complained in her report that several clinics treating young adults refused to cooperate with her by sharing their data, which would have allowed her to see the long terms effects of the various treatments on these children, once they had become adults and were no longer in the paediatric system?

https://segm.org/Final-Cass-Report-2024-NHS-Response-Summary#:~:text=The%20Cass%20report%20revealed%20that,transitions%20as%20well%20as%20those

Suggestion of lack of data integrity in gender clinics. The Cass report revealed that in a truly unexpected turn of events, all but one adult gender clinic refused to cooperate in a data analysis project that would have allowed  tracking of longer-term outcomes of 9,000 gender dysphoric young people, which included both those who underwent gender transitions as well as those who chose less invasive options. The responsibility for the research, which has obtained ethics permission, has now been handed over to NHSE, which will conduct the review without the gender clinics’s cooperation. The objection of the gender clinics and the responses to those objections (both contained in the appendices to the report) suggest that the reasons for the lack of cooperation may be ideological.

https://archive.ph/ecsML

Does that sound as though they want to establish a "robust statistical model"?

And it could be worse than that - might they even have something to hide?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041971#Comment_122041971

Source is everything and that is why reputable reports always reference both their funding and sources. The WPATH report is activist dog ****.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041990#Comment_122041990

The reason the evidence based is so poor is because the service was so grossly underfunded that it was impossible to do followup. Who's fault was that exactly ?

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041996#Comment_122041996

"Source is everything" you say, while providing no source for your assertion that they WPATH report is activist-driven.

Interesting.

Tell me shoog - what is your view on anorexics? Would you support their self-image? I find it's interesting you keep avoiding this question.

I find it interesting to how interested you are in science while studying medical treatments are valid until proven otherwise, in contrast to any generally accepted norm

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042003#Comment_122042003

You have never asked me that question. However from your framing it's obvious that you want to declare transgenderism as a mental illness. How progressive.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041983#Comment_122041983

I'm really sorry, but you cannot make false and misleading statements like this:

Dr Cass has greenlighted an expansion in puberty blockers use

Compare this statement with the nuance of what Dr Cass actually said:

Children/ young people referred to NHS gender services must receive a holistic assessment of their needs to inform an individualised care plan. This should include screening for neurodevelopmental conditions, including autism spectrum disorder, and a mental health assessment.

The option to provide masculinising/feminising hormones from age 16 is available, but the Review recommends extreme caution. There should be a clear clinical rationale for providing hormones at this stage rather than waiting until an individual reaches 18.  Every case considered for medical treatment should be discussed at a national Multi- Disciplinary Team (MDT).

For most young people, a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.

Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity.

The use of masculinising / feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.

The rationale for early puberty suppression remains unclear, with weak evidence regarding the impact on gender dysphoria, mental or psychosocial health. The effect on cognitive and psychosexual development remains unknown.

The controversy surrounding the use of medical treatments has taken focus away from what the individualised care and treatment is intended to achieve for individuals seeking support from NHS gender services.

The strengths and weaknesses of the evidence base on the care of children and young people are often misrepresented and overstated, both in scientific publications and social debate.

While a considerable amount of research has been published in this field, systematic evidence reviews demonstrated the poor quality of the published studies, meaning there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions, or for children and their families to make informed choices. 

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042002#Comment_122042002

Do you have evidence that this is the true reason, or is that speculation on your part?

Cass didn't say anything of the sort anyway.

If they have a valid explanation for failings, wouldn't they have cooperated with her investigation, pointing out the need for extra money to be allocated for records?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042016#Comment_122042016

You took a lot of effort there to not refute what I said. The number of children who receive drug or surgical interventions is very very small. The screening carried out reflects what Cass recommends as best practice.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042010#Comment_122042010

What sort of illness do you think it is?

I mean, if it is not an illness, then there's no need for transgender medical treatments, is there?

We don't, for instance, treat homosexuality as an illness any longer because nobody requires medical treatment in order to achieve/validate their homosexuality. And the so-called "medical treatment" in the past was to stop someone from being gay, not to enable them to become so. That's a huge difference, which shows that being gay is innate, and not an illness.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042024#Comment_122042024

You said Hilary Cass "greenlighted an expansion of puberty blocker use".

This was a wholly false statement, and misleadingly gives the impression that Cass has no problem with puberty blocker use in children.

And yes, the quotes from the report above precisely refute that misleading statement.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042022#Comment_122042022

The service providers saw this whole review as a carry forward of the hysterical response to Dr Bells whistleblower activism - which was a reflection of his own anti-trans position. I would be quite sympathetic to their position given the wave of right-wing culture wars bullshit they were been swamp by.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042039#Comment_122042039

It's kind of amusing to see you accusing others of taking an ideologically-based position, given the above.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042034#Comment_122042034

She greenlighted a series of studies to show the use of puberty blockers for gender dysphoria. You cannot do that without people getting puberty blockers and you cannot do that without a robust sample size. The number of people recieving puberty blockers for gender dysphoria is so small that it barely meets the required numbers to draw a statistically robust conclusion.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042050#Comment_122042050

Hey I didn't say it was right, but I understand why an overstretch clinician who perceived themselves under attack would take that position.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042010#Comment_122042010

Actually I did - see my post stamped 16-04-2024 11:04am

I see you've avoided answering it again now.

Ditto the question on why you think medicine should be ok until proven bad rather than the other way around

I should add I don't expect any better from you at this stage, but I feel it's important to keep asking you questions you can't answer because your lack of answer should discredit you for others reading in

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042059#Comment_122042059

Seriously?? Who do you think pays these clinics which refused to cooperate with an official government-funded investigation chaired by an eminent paediatrican?

If they perceived themselves as under attack by Cass (and had nothing to hide) then I would suggest that that would be a very foolish approach to take. Makes them sound like the anti choicers who complained about Prof Arulkumaran in the Savita Halappanaver investigation. Especially as, like the anti choicers, they only really began dissing Cass after the report didn't go their way.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042063#Comment_122042063

Hey - I am just accepting what the medical profession says about transgenderism - and they don't say its a mental illness.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042077#Comment_122042077

But you don't accept what the medical profession says about the dangers of puberty blocker use in children.

It's all very a la carte; that science I'll accept; this other science, not so much.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042094#Comment_122042094

I don't accept your interpretation of what they say - no.

Puberty blockers have been used for a long time on precocious puberty at this stage and if they presented a significant risk to health they would have been withdrawn in all cases. This has not happened so I just don't accept that they are a danger to children.

cdeb

It's interesting to read through the reports and see the various trans myths picked apart - the "Transition or suicide myth", the myth around a suicide epidemic in trans youth, the myth around a 1% detransition rate, etc

On the last, Cass quotes an individual she met who transitioned and later regretted it. "I felt like it wasn’t, you know, acceptable to go back. It wasn’t a thing to go back, you know. It wasn’t something that was talked about. It didn’t feel like an option that they wanted to discuss or even mention"

I can't remember was it on here or in one of the reports that people mentioned online pressure against people who spoke about detransitioning.

It all has an uncomfortable whiff of Scientology about it. There's only 1% (or some tiny number) of people leave Scientology too. If you talk about leaving then church or even say anything critical, then you get nasty pressure (see Louis Theroux's My Scientology Movie for example) to talk you out of it. Maybe a humbling public apology too like so many public figures have been beaten in to.

And hey, there's only a small number of Scientologists and what harm did they ever do to you? All they want to do is live their life as they identify (say the mouthpieces like Shoog and Annasopra here - but when those people start talking out like in the Cass report they must be discredited.)

Add in medical interventions straight out of Dr Moreau's Island and it's really really nasty stuff I think.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042179#Comment_122042179

Whole lot of heresy there.