What Can be Picked up on Long Wave Around Ireland?

Glaceon · 23-03-2023 7:05pm

I remember my school bus in 6th class was a Ford Transit minibus. It was MW/LW only; in the mornings the driver had Morning Ireland on (567 MW of course) and then Atlantic 252 on the way home.

Antenna · 23-03-2023 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392908#Comment_120392908

I do not recall any Spanish transmitter on 207. I do recall the German transmitter there in the past, I could receive very weakly by day.

And the (recently closed) Icelandic 207 could be got very weakly by day (groundwave) when on the west Coast of Ireland with a total sea path to Iceland (as well as at night conditions further afield)

It is highly unlikely that a group would just do a "test" on LW and then abandon it considering the large size aerial etc needed to be effective on LW in the first place.

You have repeatedly said there were broadcasts from Spain (if shortlived) on 207kHz LW, however no one else seems to have heard this?, and there is absolutely nothing historical online I can find about this (from DXers etc) ?

This seems to be a reliable list of past and present broadcasts in Europe etc on LW, however no mention of any past Spanish transmissions on 207 (or 209) - active LW stations at the top, closed/inactive stations further down the page in grey.

https://www.asiawaves.net/longwave-radio.htm

dxhound2005 · 23-03-2023 7:53pm

There is another link which lists it as being RNE5 from Logroño, with a 300 metre mast. But it must have been very short lived, as I cannot see it in any of the old World Radio TV Handbooks. I never heard it myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longwave_radio_broadcasters

Annascaul · 23-03-2023 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393222#Comment_120393222

As said, I can confirm that I've definitely received a Spanish language station on 207 kHz. You can take my word for that, or you can also chose not to believe it. If it was a test or just a short-lived broadcast for some other reason I can't say. This has been several decades ago. There is no point in arguing about that one today. There is probably no real way to find out about that today.

23-03-2023 8:06pm

Speaking of which, who here remembers that Isle of Man farcical longwave project that was "coming soon" for many years back in the 00s ? Either the people involved were on lsd or it was a front for some sort of tax dodging/Money laundering.

Annascaul · 23-03-2023 8:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393353#Comment_120393353

This was MusicMan 279, as far as I remember.

tinytobe · 23-03-2023 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393306#Comment_120393306

There is one link here:

https://swling.com/blog/2020/06/video-1954-inauguration-of-ree-rne-shortwave-radio-transmitters/

One entry states:

Jos

January 11, 2023 at 7:13 am

RNE was briefly broadcasting on Long Wave 207 kHz at their Logrono transmitter but shut it down rather quickly due to lack of interest and high overhead cost. I think this was at some point in the 80ies.

I would suggest that's at least some form of plausible or possible evidence? I wouldn't trust Wikipedia too much on transmitters and broadcasting history what frequencies are concerned.

dxhound2005 · 23-03-2023 8:31pm

Wikipedia articles are written by people. If you were going to correct the information, what exactly would you say?

tinytobe · 23-03-2023 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393443#Comment_120393443

If the question is directed at me, I'd try to make it as truthful as possible. Possibly stating that there are reports that this or that happened.

If you want a real answer you might have to write to RNE to get it confirmed, that is if anybody still has records not lost records or is old enough to remember.

I am a bit surprised that there is so much talk on a LW transmitter which may or may not have been briefly on air. If the RNE was briefly or longer on air on LW there are probably a number of reasons for that.

I can only guess that if the signal was received in Ireland the signal would have been weak. The 207 would have been in use in Iceland as well as Morocco and even in Germany? So together with Spain there would have been 4 transmitters in Europe on 207. Maybe it was really just a test broadcast? Or Morocco was serving as a relay for Spain? Also possible?

dxhound2005 · 23-03-2023 9:02pm

Wikipeda did not say anything incorrect. They listed the information for Spain in the closed transmitters section. Other information from other sources, does not conflict with that. Your link referenced the Wikipedia listing as well.

"Not a comment about REE/RNE shortwave but RNE5 Logrono listed as being on LONG WAVE ! Was is ever transmitting on Long Wave (207kHz ?? ). Mentioned in Wikipedia info about Logrono town . Was Spain ever on Longwave , other than perhaps experimental/unauthorised Txs in the early days of Radio ?

Des Walsh"

tinytobe · 23-03-2023 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393564#Comment_120393564

No, I meant, in general Wikipedia isn't too exact on frequencies and the likes, just my experience. That doesn't mean it's the same in this case.

Suppose one thing: RNE was relaying on 207 from Morocco and at the same time using the 207 at a lower power to cover the North of Spain? ( possibly as a test?)

171 from Medi 1 from Morocco reaches most of Spain to date, except the North. The same would have been with the 207 from Morocco and they used the Logrono transmitter just to cover the North. Same as BBC R4 with their transmitters in Droitwich, Burghead and Westerglen, - all on 198 kHz.

In the case of Spain and Morocco both on 207 kHz this may have been a test?

I personally would find it hard to believe if Morocco on 207 and Logrono on 207 were broadcasting something different. This clearly would not have worked, - but that's my interpretation today.

Just all speculation on my part.

Also coming back to the wikipedia link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longwave_radio_broadcasters

For 207 kHz under inactive transmitters it lists:

RNE Radio 5

SpainLogroñoDirectional antenna, 300 metres tall.>100

and:

SNRT Al-Idaa Al-Watania

MoroccoAzilal Demnate304.8 metres (1,000 ft) tall guyed mast 400

My conclusion: 400 kW from Morocco and 100 kW from Spain would not have been a good idea, unless they were relaying the same content.

Maybe it was really just a test.

Annascaul · 24-03-2023 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393612#Comment_120393612

Interesting point you raised here.

One would have to take into account that to date Medi1 has 1600 kW on 171 kHz and Chaine 3 1500 kW on 252 kHz.

Both a lot of power to be considered. If the 207 kHz in Morocco was transmitting with a similar power, it would most likely have covered the whole of Spain as well, - and the 207 kHz in Logrono Spain would have only acted to cover the northern parts of Spain? That is if Morocco was carrying RNE as a test?

After all, the 252 ( currently 150 kW, 500 in former times?) from Ireland as well as the 252 from Algeria are already an issue what reception is concerned, especially in parts of the UK like Kent.

dxhound2005 · 24-03-2023 3:06pm

Long wave looks to have been as crowded as medium wave back in the day. Germany and Ukraine were both on 207, and lots of other possible conflicts. Finland and Russia may have been on 252 before Algeria and Ireland. It is up to the broadcasters to decide how they want to go, if their administration has been given a frequency allocation. Plenty of conflicts on medium wave now, and in the heyday of short wave, frequency allocation was always contentious.

Spain has four transmitters on 531 medium wave, and probably the locals don't hear the powerhouse from Algeria. Even if it is putting out segments in Spanish as part of their international service. Just like UK listeners never noticed Spain on 1215 when Absolute was there. So I think with Logrono being 1,000 kilometres from Morocco, they could have co-existed.

TAFKAlawhec · 24-03-2023 5:51pm

I don't recall any Spanish-based LW TX broadcasting on 207 kHz from memory, though that doesn't mean of course that it never existed. Also, unless a valid citation is provided for a piece of information in a Wikipeida article never take any such info as gospel.

But looking further into it, I have a PDF copy of the second edition of the 1975 Geneva Conference frequency book that lists the agreed frequency allocations for MW & LW transmissions in most of the world outside of the Americas, which dates to 1981 and includes additional allocations applied for and granted from after the 1975 agreement. Looking at 209 kHz (later 207 kHz), there is no allocation for Spain on this frequency. The allocations are...

* Passau (West Germany), 500kW ND 0400-1800, 250kW Dir 1800-0400

* Caltanissetta (Italy), 60kW ND 24H

* Kiev/Kyiv (Ukraine/USSR), 500kW ND 24H

* Tachkent/Tashkent (Uzbekistan/USSR), 50kW ND 24H

Iceland Syncs...

* Eidar, 50kW ND 0700-0200

* Floinn, 500kW ND 0700-0200

Mongolia Syncs...

* Dalantszasagad, 150kW ND 2200-0800

* Muren, 150kW ND 2200-0800

* Tchoibolsan, 75kW ND 2200-0800

* Ulgei, 60kW ND 2200-1500

Soviet Union Syncs...

* Blagovechtchen, 30kW ND 24H

* Skovorodino, 30kW ND 24H

However there were LW allocations for Spain in GE75...

* 191/189 kHz - Madrid, 1000kW Dir 24H

* 227/225 kHz - Barcelona, 800kW Dir 24H (Sync)

* 227/225 kHz - Bilbao, 400kW Dir 24H (Sync)

* 227/225 kHz - Linares, 400kW Dir 24H (Sync)

* 227/225 kHz - Lugo, 200kW Dir 24H (Sync)

...the problem with these allocations were not only did they have directional restrictions, the restrictions in certain directions were quite severe, for example the Madrid allocation had directional restrictions between 020-040 degrees to an ERP of 100kW and an even more punitive restriction between 070-110 degrees to just 12.5kW - difficult to accomodate on MW without some elaborate antenna setups and for LW this would require even more land & ironmongery - since it didn't appear at the time that Spain was using the LW bands for broadcasting during the 1970's, RNE likely decided it wasn't worth putting these LW allocations into practice. There was something very similar in the Netherlands, were there was a 500kW allocation from Lopik on 173/171 kHz but had various directional restrictions between 020-210 degrees down as low as 25kW between 060-080 degrees presumably to protect the USSR 1000kW allocation at Kaliningrad.

For similar reasons, the 254/252 kHz allocation for Ireland (originally marked down for Tullamore) was for 500kW non-directional during the day from a 300 metre vertical radiator between 0600-1800 hours, but for between 1800-0600 hours had two directional restrictions between 040-070 and 140-190 degrees to minimise interference to same channel allocations to Finland and Algeria respectively, limiting night-time radiated power in these directions to 100kW (500kW in all other directions). When the mast for Atlantic 252 was being constructed, it was clearly decided that rather than build a directional aerial system it was simpler to just reduced the ERP from the single mast to 100kW from 500kW at 6pm each evening - which might explain why in their early days Atlantic 252 shut down at 7pm and asked listeners to retune to Radio Luxembourg's English service on 1440 kHz.

---

Notes...

1. I also have the PDF of the original (first edition) GE75 allocations - notable additions to the second addition was the 612 kHz allocation added for RTÉ Radio 2 from Athlone as well as five allocations for the new BBC MW TX site at Ennsikillen that was built in the early 1980's (693, 774, 873, 1053 & 1197 kHz).

2. There are also third & fourth editions available of the GE75 allocations booklet, but these versions I have omit the actual frequency allocations tables! IIRC the 4th edition dates to 1989.

tinytobe · 24-03-2023 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397044#Comment_120397044

Thanks for your research. If the 207 kHz in Morocco had directional restrictions towards Spain, than it could have been possible that the 207 kHz in Logrono could have had a different programme than the one in Morocco.

The only document I came up is from RNE:

There the text reads:

1. En las ondas largas, se procede a una reserva general a favor de RNE para un servicio específico de atención a las necesidades rurales, por lo que se le asigna dos frecuencias y se fijan un número máximo de cinco estaciones emisoras. Según el artículo 2, las estaciones de acuerdo con el Plan serian: en la frecuencia de 191 Khzs, en Madrid, con una potencia de 1.000 Kms, y en la frecuencia de 227 Khzs, en Barcelona (800 kws), Bilbao (400 Kws), Linares(400 Kws) y Lugo (200 Kws). En la actualidad no se si están en funcionamiento o si se están utilizando estas frecuencias para otros fines

Which basically means that these frequencies have been reserved to be used in rural areas for rural needs. And reserved would mean, they never went into active service.

I don't see any motivation by a listener to see any benefit of reporting on something which didn't happen, and when it did it only happened for a couple of months. Thus I believe that the 207 kHz in Spain was in use at some point, quite possibly only a trial or some other test.

The other thought I've had is what if it was really Morocco and they had a Spanish language programme on? Not impossible to think that Morocco was at times and certain hours transmitting in Spanish. Both the Spanish as well as the French were colonial powers and these languages, especially French is still strongly in use in Morocco.

TAFKAlawhec · 24-03-2023 9:07pm

If Chris Cary was able to lash up a transmission system to broadcast for a short time on 254 kHz back in the winter of 85-86 (albeit at low levels as far as long wave goes, suggestions I've heard were between 15-50kW), then I'm sure the likes of RNE would have been able to lash up a similarly powered system as well if needed.

Though myself? I'd need the word of several collaborating sources to be reasonably certain of a transmission claim - if you're the only person making the claim, you'd need some fairly solid evidence to convince most others in the hobby (a QSL card was, and to some extent still is, the traditional way of verifying the reception of a transmission) that you you heard was real. It's possible at that frequency that some radios can suffer problems like image rejection, for example I've seen radios "pick up" Talk Sport on 189 kHz, even though it obviously doesn't broadcast on that frequency.

tinytobe · 24-03-2023 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397774#Comment_120397774

Incidentally, wasn't the 252 transmitter and mast brought in from Texas? Wasn't there a European source for that one?

Glaceon · 24-03-2023 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397792#Comment_120397792

Continental Electronics, who also provided the transmitter for RTE Radio 2/2FM at Athlone.

tinytobe · 24-03-2023 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397906#Comment_120397906

Is it known what the reason was for the frequent downtime of the 252? They were quite often off air recently, apparently due to some engineering work, but what precisely needed to be done? Does anybody know?

Glaceon · 24-03-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397968#Comment_120397968

I don’t think anyone knows for sure. The Continentals were replaced with a Transradio solid state unit in 2007 so it should be fairly reliable.

Mickey Mike · 10-04-2023 6:45pm

The Transradio TX installed in Clarkstown back in 2007 wasn't too reliable with so many outages and maintenance costs, but its all over now, coming to an end on the 14/04/23.

10-04-2023 10:26pm

I was just passing the Cork AM mast over the weekend, and it seems the structure is in use for what looks like mobile phone transmission equipment at the lower levels. At least it's probably making some income, although there's no real purpose for the tall aspect of it.

As for why RTE used Continental Electronics for transmitter equipment, I suppose it was one of the best options available in the 1970s and 80s and they'd a lot of experience with medium wave sites.

Mickey Mike · 11-04-2023 5:42am

I'd like to leave the mask standing, especially the one in Tullamore, I'm sure it cost nothing to leave them alone, Clarkstown TX was refurbished recently too. Other countries knocks them down straight away, just like Iceland did.

Glaceon · 11-04-2023 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463374#Comment_120463374

Yep, judging from photos the pair used for 2FM look to be the 317C series which were very popular in the US up until the late 80s when the Harris DX50 became available.

11-04-2023 10:22am

Might the 252 tower be used for mobile phone equipment etc like cork and Athlone?

Mickey Mike · 11-04-2023 11:30am

Yes of course, they have a little outhouse right long side the mask, ideal.

Glaceon · 11-04-2023 11:33am

I'd wonder if there's still local objection to it? They could be made take it down eventually.

11-04-2023 4:33pm

The Cork AM mast is in the middle of a suburban area with a lot of need for mobile coverage density and it's also a very hilly part of the country, so the odd high site is quite useful.

However, they're probably too tall for most practical mobile uses and the need for point-to-point microwave links is becoming less of a big deal with more fibre-to-tower stuff to support 4G/5G high data loads.

If there was an easy route for a load of fibre at Clarkstown it might be of some use as a hub for mobile phone stuff, but I'm pretty sure the networks already have all that stuff sorted long ago.

As far as I am aware, those AM towers also sway quite a bit at the high points as they're very slender guyed masts. It doesn't matter a damn to an AM transmitter, but something like a microwave dish needs to stay in fairly reasonable alignment.

Mobile equipment is also fairly space consuming. They're arrays of flat antennas, so I'm not sure about the practicality of a skinny mast.

01-07-2023 7:59pm

Looks like Channel 3 from Algeria on 252 is off again for the second time this week.

I wonder are there issues with the transmitter? Or are they just "turning down the wick", so to speak?

02-07-2023 1:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793193#Comment_120793193

Back on now

Tax The Farmers · 08-07-2023 11:09pm

To answer the OP's question apart from BBC Radio 4 and maybe Poland or Algeria there's not much left to listen to on LW in Ireland. Back in the day some of the French language stations played good music (these came in particularly well along the South coast) and before the 1978 frequency changes BBC Radio 2 had a pretty large following in Ireland because in those days there wasn't much else to listen to when there was nothing interesting on the single RTE service.

09-07-2023 12:12pm

Algeria is still off the air leaving Medi 1 from Morocco on 171 as both the last French language station on LW and the last active LW transmitter in North Africa.

BBC Radio 4's LW service looks set to be discontinued in March of next year. The Danish transmitter on 243 is closing at the end of December. Iceland's transmitter on 189 is to be de-commissioned at some point within the next year. That's a total of five transmitters scheduled for closure in the near future.

Medi 1 doesn't advertise its presence on LW anymore so who knows how much longer that will stay on the band. If that too goes off the air all that's left on LW will be Romania on 153 and Polskie Radio 1 on 225.

There's also the Mongolian transmitters, five in total, at least one of which is now reported as having gone off the air. The remaining three or four are still on, just about and all of them allegedly have ongoing technical issues. Barely even worth mentioning at this point.

09-07-2023 11:24pm

Just noticed that 171 from Morocco is now off the air...

10-07-2023 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828082#Comment_120828082

Back on now

14-07-2023 9:23pm

And Algeria is back on 252. More and More by Captain Hollywood project playing. Feels like I'm actually listening to Atlantic!!!

Igor Grupa · 29-07-2023 8:37pm

Poland's 225 kHz is directional since the late 90s, and Ireland not very good covered. There used to be an omnidirectional mast, but it fell down (wiki: Warsaw_radio_mast) and a whole new transmitter and 2 masts were build in the 90s wiki: Solec_Kujawski_radio_transmitter

As for Radios with long wave: LIDL still has them on sale every few weeks. and there are quite a lot car radios capable of receiving, very often lacking a particular button for LW, but switching to AM and tuning down would bring you to long wave. the radio in my 2016 Clio still can do that

29-08-2023 7:29pm

Antena Satelor from Romania is silent on 153 for the past few hours at least

tinytobe · 30-08-2023 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044158#Comment_121044158

I've noticed that as well. Maybe they've reduced power or turned it off completely without advance notice? No idea? I also have no insight, if LW is enjoying a higher listnership in Romania than in other places in Europe?

30-08-2023 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048711#Comment_121048711

It's back on now. Power appears to have been substantially reduced in recent times. I do know that Radio Romania have reduced power by fifty percent at their national and regional transmitters or are just about to do so but 153 seems to have been dialled down a lot further. Maybe it was an unplanned outage or maybe they were testing the waters. We'll just have to wait and see what happens I guess.

Medi 1 from Morocco seems to have reduced power again within the last couple of weeks. Next to go I wonder?

tinytobe · 31-08-2023 7:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049178#Comment_121049178

If they are testing the waters they probably don't know how many LW listeners they have or not?

02-09-2023 9:16pm

Channel 3 from Algeria on 252 went off the air for a couple of hours last night. It's back on now but at anorak quality level rather than booming as it was after the last lengthy outage.

I believe the transmitter was replaced in 2012 or thereabouts but I can't seem to find any information on who manufactured the new rig.

Glaceon · 03-09-2023 8:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061678#Comment_121061678

Transradio, the same crowd that provided the solid state rig for RTE. They went bust a few years ago but they had case studies for both transmitters on their website at the time.

03-09-2023 1:06pm

Thanks @Glaceon

That's interesting. Transradio also supplied the new rig for the Mongolian 209 kHz transmitter in the far-west of the country. Monitoring the SDR in Novokuznetsk, Russia would suggest that that one is only on the air intermittently. I believe it too was installed in or around 2012.

So there are three Transradio rigs (RTE 1, Chaine 3 and MNB 1) which are (or were in the case of RTE 1) prone to outages. I'm guessing the reason for that is that backup support and spares are difficult to obtain now that the company no longer exists.

tinytobe · 05-09-2023 12:21pm

171 and 252, Morocco and Algeria seem to be way weaker now? Can anybody confirm?

Mickey Mike · 05-09-2023 12:39pm

I can't pick up 171 at all, was never able to, but 252 is definitely weaker now than it was.

05-09-2023 12:51pm

Yes, both of these are as significantly reduced power

05-09-2023 8:51pm

252 is off now yet again...

tinytobe · 06-09-2023 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121074257#Comment_121074257

I've just picked a station in the South of Spain on Kiwi SDR, both 171 and 252 seem to be on air.

06-09-2023 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077798#Comment_121077798

They are indeed. As you can see, 171 is down to a trickle of power...

tinytobe · 06-09-2023 8:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077864#Comment_121077864

Not certain what the intented audience on LW really is?

The desert probably for Algeria, and the expatriates for both Morocco and Algeria? Are LW radios that commonplace there these days? Maybe not?

TV seems digital there as well, meaning they have access to new technology as well.

What Can be Picked up on Long Wave Around Ireland?

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