What Can be Picked up on Long Wave Around Ireland?

RetroEncabulator

Is there a particular reason why, assuming that RTE wanted to continue using LW for diaspora reach, that it couldn't just shift to a clearer slot that might mean being able to broadcast at 100kW or less at all times?

From what I gather, the 252kHz transmitter is relatively modern by LW standards only dating from the late 1980s- so I assume it's not a THAT complicated to move it to a slightly different frequency and there isn't exactly an abundance of stations on LW anymore.

dxhound2005

A few years ago every channel was occupied, and many channels were shared. Algeria also has an allocation on 153 which apparently is on air at present, and on 198, which may or may not have been used. In the 1975 agreement mentioned in this Dáil question, Algeria, Finland, Ireland, Syria, and USSR were given an allocation on 254, which later became 252 in line with international agreements. Frequencies are agreed internationally, and countries cannot just pick and choose.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/ga/debates/debate/dail/1983-12-14/195/

People should be able to move their radios around to null out Algeria and get RTE.

RetroEncabulator

Realistically speaking though, I doubt 252kHz from Ireland is likely to be around for all that much longer. It seems to be surviving on inertia.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120076165#Comment_120076165

The transmitter was actually replaced in 2007 with a solid state unit so it's even newer. The original 1989 rig was two 300 kW valve-based transmitters paired together but licensed for 500 maximum. The current solid state transmitter is only a single 300 kW unit. Nothing technically stopping them from retuning I'd say, but getting permission to transmit on another frequency would be a different story. They were meant to close it a long time ago now but left on for political reasons more than anything.

rathfarnhamlad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120076165#Comment_120076165

RTE can't just shift to a different frequency - they would need to obtain clearance from the ITU before doing so.

Also the transmitter & mast would need to be modified, the latter of which is no trivial task.

RetroEncabulator

I know they'd have to get agreement from the ITU but on an increasingly empty piece of spectrum, can that really be THAT complicated at this stage? It might have been a huge deal in the mid 1970s or 1980s, but it's basically dead old tech now, and if they want to keep it running on low power and serving the UK based Irish communities, it would make sense to just be on a quiet bit of the band.

It seems more likely though it will just quietly go off air at some point.

dxhound2005

And they cannot move to "a slightly different frequency", only to one of the other 9 kHz channels. If they went to say 255 that would create a heterodyne whistle where they and Algeria are being received. An even more annoying thing than co channel interference. This is why AM transmitters are all allocated to 9 kHz channels on Long and Medium wave.

RetroEncabulator

I mean literally moving to one of the vacated frequencies that are no longer used.

Anyway, this is pointless. Obviously it's as impossible and I'm a moron for asking or suggesting otherwise. The forms are just too long and complicated.

rathfarnhamlad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120076587#Comment_120076587

Let's say RTE want to move to say, 261 now that Bulgaria is no longer using it, or even better the former Czech Radio 270 frequency. Here's how that would work:

• RTE/2RN applies to the ITU asking for clearance to change the frequency.
• If the ITU (along with other countries, even though they are no longer using the frequency) agree, then 261 or 270 is re-allocated to Ireland.
• RTE NL technical staff have to modify the output stages of the transmitter to work on a different frequency.
• The mast at Summerhill, Co. Meath needs to be shortened proportionally to the increase in frequency (or added to in height if, say, Ireland was given clearance to use 243, for example). This would be a fairly substantial undertaking.

Those are the steps that would be involved in changing frequency, in that order.

RetroEncabulator

In which case, I assume the transmitter's fate is probably a scrap yard at some point in the next few years.

rathfarnhamlad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120076637#Comment_120076637

Unfortunately, probably yes.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120076061#Comment_120076061

The whole technology is out of a different time and a different area. Transmitting or producing an amplitude modulation and receiving an amplitude modulation is from a technical point of view one of the easiest radio signals to produce. However today it's costly to run and it doesn't reach the audience anymore in times of internet and DAB, both dominating the British radio listening habits.

I suppose, sharing the 252 of the RTE with Algeria is from a different time, when there were a lot more LW radio stations around and bandwith on LW is in general somewhat limited. ( remember, back in the early days of TV nearly the whole LW band was used to broadcast a small black and white picture and a sound from London which was received even as far as New York) Also back then the 252 of RTE hat a lot more kW in transmitter power to be received loud and clearly around the whole of the UK. And even more back in the days, Atlantic 252 had quite a good coverage of the UK also across London and the South East.

The UK has some kind of law in place which forbids broadcasters from foreign countries to broadcast from inside of the UK when the main language of the programme is English. Thus the UK doesn't have AFN transmitters for the US forces, like they have in Germany, the Netherlands or Belgium. For this reason re-broadcasting RTE Radio 1 on DAB+ won't be a choice out of a legal perspective, but probably the cheapest from a commercial point of view and the easiest from today's technical point of view.

The Irish diaspora living in the UK has overall no real knowledge of RTE on 252 kHz. First there are very few LW radios around, almost none to buy new, and second, since the RTE reduced transmission power of the 252 transmitter reception in London and the South East of England is poor at the best of times. Often only radio enthusiasts with the right and expensive equipment can receive it. Thus the value to the Irish diaspora living in the UK is actually almost none at a time when the internet and mobile internet via smartphones and RTE via apps is omnipresent in the UK anyway.

RTE would be far better off if they would have kept a strong MW transmitter ( something like Athlone, or better Tullamore ) to serve the Irish diaspora in the UK if they wanted to, simply as there are even today way more MW radios around. And then there are unconfirmed rumors of the catholic church of Ireland insisting on RTE on 252 kHz just for the catholic Sunday mass, but that could also have been achieved with MW rather than LW.

RetroEncabulator

I wonder will the energy crisis be used as the reason to finally close it. That kWhs add up fast!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774805#Comment_119774805

are valves in transmitters as amazing as valves in guitar amps ? Unbeatable sound that cannot be matched buy modern technology?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077835#Comment_120077835

I think you're comparing way different technology here.

Regarding the 198 kHz for Radio 4 there are many unconfirmed reports. Apparently the valves for the Droitwich transmitter are no longer available and have been bought by the BBC on the 2nd hand market. The ones at Burghead and Westerglen in Scotland, both transmitting as a relay for Radio 4 on 198 kHz as well are rumored to be more modern.

But ultimately there's always the cost component and the question on how commercially feasible it is to continue broadcasting BBC Radio 4 on LW at a time when there are so many alternatives. FM, DVB, DAB and on the internet. Also the BBC has a cost pressure.

In the UK there are unconfirmed rumors that BBC Radio 4 on LW could go off air as early as March 2023.

The reason for this is that Scottish and Southern Energy is also using the 198 kHz Droitwich transmitter for their older Radio Teleswitch Service Meters until March 2023 for the Economy 7 and Economy 10 tariffs, after March 2023 they will switch to new smart meters.

At the same time the BBC only has a high cost of transmitting but no real audience on LW. Remember Absolute radio only reaches 2% of the audience on MW with 30% of the cost to transmit and there are even fewer LW radios and LW listeners around.....

RetroEncabulator

The old 162 kHz that used to carry ‘France Inter’ (A format a bit like RTE Radio 1) just carries a time signal controlled two caesium clocks. It’s still used by things like railway clocks and some older day/night power meters - apparently there are still other 300,000 known devices relying on the time signal - although I suspect with smart meter deployment over there being pretty advanced at this stage, it’s probably irrelevant now too.

I would assume Droitwich could end up in a similar situation.

I think that French transmitter was fairly substantially modernised in 1980. So it may not be quite as old.

Glaceon

The current pair of transmitters at Droitwich were installed in 1984/85. Getting on a bit now, like myself. 😂

dxhound2005

That France signal on 162 is mighty strong, listed as using 1,100 kilowatts which must be costing a lot. It can be heard clearly in Ireland. Tune to 161 kHz USB mode to hear the tone being sent. At night other broadcasters can be heard faintly in the background in AM mode. I can usually hear BBC Radio 4. This is due to what is known as the Luxembourg Effect.

http://irelandnorthwest.proxy.kiwisdr.com:8073/

rathfarnhamlad

With regard to the BBC LW transmitter at Droitwich, the story about buying up all spare valves known to exist appeared in a news article (the Guardian, I think) about 10 years ago & has been debunked by ex-BBC technical staff. Replacement valves can be ordered from Thales, among other companies. The current transmitter was installed in the mid-1980's, it isn't some relic from the 1930's.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078035#Comment_120078035

I don't think that Droitwich will end up the same way as the French time signal.

https://www.sseenergysolutions.co.uk/news-and-insights/rts-closure

It's pretty unambigous:

"On 31 March 2023, the longwave transmitter will be shut down, affecting the functionality of all RTS meters. These changes are industry-wide and will affect both domestic and business customers.

Following the closure, we will be unable to support this type of meter. However, we want to ensure all our customers continue getting their heating and hot water as normal, which is why we are offering them a new smart alternative."

and

"All our customers affected by the change will have their meters exchanged to a second-generation SMETS2 smart meter, at no additional cost. They offer a range of intelligent functions and provide more accurate energy data."

The new SMETS2 smart meters seem to communicate via 4G:

Read more at: https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html 

"Do Smart Meters use 5G?

No Smart Meters currently use 5G. Even in the future a move to 5G is unlikely as the amounts of data transferred are very small and long distance communication is the main requirement. 5G is a higher frequency technology and generally low frequencies are most reliable and capable of penetrating obstructions like buildings, which is why 4G will often work in more places than 5G. Higher frequencies are also more easily scattered by objects"

So far there is no statement from the BBC as to the exact date of the LW shutdown only that they plan to shut down.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078094#Comment_120078094

But then you would still have the problem of running a high cost of transmitting via LW which few people are listening to and even fewer radios around for a price below 40 Euros or Pounds. Just look at the cost Absolute Radio was running for the 1215 network on AM. Last time I looked, Argos had only 2 LW radios on offer, and they only differed in colour.

rathfarnhamlad

The only radio manufactures still selling LW-compatible receivers that I know of are Roberts & Tecsun, even then I think the former are just selling off existing stock & the latter only feature LW on their more expensive models last time I checked their website. The other alternative is to build your own but of course very few people will actually go that route.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078225#Comment_120078225

I think Sangean also still sells LW radios as well. Price tags are in the upper 200 Euros, or the lower 300 for something decent.

Not all is negative as well. It is possible in the case of MW that they do it like in the Netherlands where it's handled rather liberally, anybody who's interested can broadcast on MW as long as they are below a certain transmitter power limit.

So there might be a 2nd life for the MW, even though BBC, Absolute and Talksport are gone at some point?

RetroEncabulator

The French time signal is used for a lot more than just day/night metering though. I suspect there’s also some national significance of not depending on the more popular German radio radio time DCF77 signal on 77.5 kHz

The French one reaches about 3500km or so too, just as a time signal.

That 5G statement is just to calm down paranoid conspiracy theorists. The mobile networks are very likely to retain the capability of supporting 2G GSM for a long time just for universal simple voice, 3G will drop and be replaced by LTE on the same spectrum. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to keep old protocols alive when they’ve dwindling users (mobile phone lifespan is about 3 years) and when the spectrum can be used more efficiently with a more recent tech.

You can maintain a small amount of 2G and run the protocol basically on IP based modern networks and using modern RANs, spinning it up almost as needed using the same equipment these days. Continuing 3G is pointless though. It’s already off the air in some countries.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078406#Comment_120078406

I still remember those radio controlled clocks they sold at Conrad electronics in Germany at some point in the 90ies. The signal made it all the way out to Ireland, as the clock changed to daylight saving time automatically, thus it must have received the signal from the transmitter.

It wouldn't surprise me if the French are serving their DOMs and TOMs with the same time signal on LW? They love their centralism in France. Didn't the LORAN run on LW transmitters as well? Or at least below 150 kHz?

I think the EU wide e-call system for new cars works on 2G. Thus they can't turn it off that easily. 3G would be obsolete anyway. 4G is kept as it's better at penetrating through buildings as opposed to 5G. 5G is just speed and probably throughput which will give way to 6G at some point, far ahead in the future.

RetroEncabulator

Seems the main issue in France is the simple ticket machines used to validate railway tickets are one of the main uses of it and there are loads and loads of those.

If you’ve ever used the SNCF you’ll have “composted” your ticket on the platform - a machine stamps or with the date and time.

Similar simple systems are used in many French urban bus networks and so on.

SNCF only got rid of the ones used in the railways this year because they’ve moved to 90% of tickets being dématérialisés (virtualised/paperless). https://www.bfmtv.com/economie/entreprises/transports/sncf-les-machines-a-composter-les-billets-vont-disparaitre-des-gares_AN-202301060031.html

So that’s one big Long Wave (Grandes Ondes) user gone.

dxhound2005

My Citizen watch gets the signal from Germany at 2 am every day. There are loads of transmitters on the air below 150 kHz for various purposes, and anyone with a communications receiver can listen. Also loads more between 279 and 531, mostly aeronautical and marine beacons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77

There is a gadget which is supposed to boost reception of LW time signals. It is really a ferrite bar antenna, and the same effect can be got by placing the watch or clock near to a radio with a ferrite antenna. There are other timepieces which can take a signal from a satellite. But broadcast satellites could well be the next thing to be phased out, so who knows what the future will bring.

RetroEncabulator

They can pull accurate time from GPS and Galileo. Those systems aren’t going anywhere for a very long time, but you do need to be able to see the sky, so not much use in a building, but it is a useful reference for a lot of things.

Internet devices all use time servers for synchronised time - routers, switches, PCs, Macs, mobile devices, IoTs

Mobile networks also supply time, but I think increasingly smartphones just behave like a PC/Mac and pull time from a server anyway.

RDS has time on analogue FM, assuming the broadcaster is reliable as does DAB (where available) and in theory you can get time from DVB-T, -C or -S too, but it might be a bit cumbersome … I can’t see anything other than a TV or STB being too bothered!

Realistically, most devices will pull it from the internet and I suspect those time signal beacons may stay on air anyway, notably the German one which seems to have a lot of users.

Full list of known time signals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

It's all water under the bridge now but by rights RTE should never have launched Radio 1 on lw 252 in the first place. 567 MW should have been maintained as the AM outlet for RTE radio 1 with 2fm's old 612 & 1278 transmitters used for Radio 1 when 567 was off air for 6 months maintenance in 2004.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080638#Comment_120080638

By 2003 and 2004 less and less new cars came with radios with LW, the French had it the longest. Opel/Vauxhall had LW radios for a while longer as well and I believe also Fords. New Volkswagens in their Mark 4 Golf didn't come with LW radios anymore, same as the 2003 Passat.

I actually enjoyed Atlantic 252 but the overall ratings of this station was going down. Whether it was the music not being liked anymore or the LW band, I don't know. Teamtalk 252 never had any decent success and then I believe the transmitter fell silent for a while until RTE decided to put Radio 1 on there at a time when interest in LW subsided more and more.

And yes, they should have opted for the MW for Radio 1, especially if the interest was to reach the Irish expatriate population in the UK.

tinytobe

RTE Radio 1 on LW, 252 kHz seems down again today, possibly temporarily again. Algeria on 252 is loud and clear.