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What Can be Picked up on Long Wave Around Ireland?

Declan A Walsh

Looking at another thread about long wave prompted this one. AM is split between Medium Wave and Long Wave. Radio 1 of course, for the time being, transmit on 252metres Long Wave, as well as their FM transmitters and online. I no longer have a radio with Long Wave. What else can be picked up on it? Obviously, judging by another thread, French station RTL is one of them for the short-term anyway. Any BBC stations? I remember when BBC Radio 2 used to be very clear on Long Wave many years ago. In the last decade, I remember picking up Radio 4 there.

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byrnefm

Hi,

171kHz is Medi 1, broadcast from Nador, Morocco.

I'm trying to find another radio about the house that has LW on it. Found one old one but I didn't pick up 171 or the time signal on 162 last night.

tinytobe

Just wondering, is the 252 weaker now and reduced power? Anybody noticing a weaker signal?

dxhound2005

252 has not reduced power. S9 +60 signal as always with me, and putting out +40 harmonic on 504 kHz, and weaker on 756 mixing with BBC Radio Four. But I can reduce the signal by moving the antenna, and make Algeria the dominant signal at night.

171 is very weak in Ireland, dispite the reputed 1,600 kilowatt output. The tones being broadcast on 162 won't be heard on an AM radio, but one with a signal meter would detect it's presence. S9 +40 with me during the day, not surprising from a 1,100 kilowatt in France. To hear the tones being transmitted, it needs a radio with SSB. Use USB and tune to below the frequency. At night it should be possible to hear faint voices on the frequency, which is other broadcasters being captured by the Luxembourg Effect. I can usually hear BBC Radio Four.

The SDR in Malin gets a decent signal from Morocco at night, and it can be used to show what I said about 162.

http://malinheadkiwi.hopto.org:8073/

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270369#Comment_120270369

Thanks for that. I only felt that a couple of days ago the 252 was rather weak. Could also have been something else.

Declan A Walsh

From another thread:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359925#Comment_120359925

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120075201#Comment_120075201

I recall and can confirm having received a Spanish station on 207 kHz LW whilst living in Wexford. However the signal was never really strong in Ireland. It was some kind of news programme but my Spanish isn't too good either. I believe this was in the late 80s or early 90s, but am not sure. It's been more than a while. A couple of months later the 207 from Spain was no longer audible. For some time I was not sure what had happened, if it was just a test or the transmitter was still on air at all with a lower power? Later I've learned they turned the LW transmitter off completely.

Incidentally, RTE Radio 1 on 252 was briefly off air again on the 10th of March. The reason for that is unknown to me. Unplanned downtime? Planned Engineering works? No idea.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372692#Comment_120372692

LW radios were already a bit of a rarity in the 80ies and 90ies, even when Atlantic 252 started broadcasting. Probably also the reason, why they decided to take the 207 in Spain off air.

RTE mentions LW252 every now and then on Radio 1 however I doubt that any significant majority is ever tuning in, as LW radios are even rarer these days.

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380619#Comment_120380619

Atlantic 252 had certain challenges marketing the longwave from the beginning.

I think they mentioned "longwave Atlantic 252" every other minute between songs in the beginning making sure, any casual listener who would have overheard the radio knew it was on longwave. At that time already few people listened to LW, and the younger generation was certainly not interested in Radio 4 on LW, thus not used to LW at all.

Remember also Atlantic 252 was focused on the UK market, and back then the UK had with Radio 1, Radio 2 only two nationwide pop stations on FM, and one on AM, which was Virgin Radio.

The 207 kHz which I picked up in Ireland rather regularly from Spain was most likely a test broadcast for a couple of months or an ill informed decision. They had initial big plans in Spain for a LW network, but then decided to stay on medium wave.

Declan A Walsh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387249#Comment_120387249

Believe it or not, in 1989 there was still a lot of radios in Ireland, especially in cars, with Long Wave. Atlantic 252 definitely got played quite a bit in shops in the 1989-1990, but less as the years went on. It was a godsend for those that had older cars without FM. Virgin Radio was not there when Atlantic 252 launched. The former arrived on the airwaves around 1993. By that stage, it was losing the Irish audience to FM radio and it was starting to be an uphill battle in the UK.

I wonder how many stations will be picked up on long wave around Ireland by the end of this year.

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389315#Comment_120389315

I think it was mostly older British car manufacturers who only had MW and LW radios for a rather long time or let's say way longer than other car manufacturers.

Thanks for that insight anyway. Yes, Atlantic 252 was there before Virgin Radio. Virgin Radio basically took over the 1215 in 1993 from the BBC, I believe it was Radio 3.

Atlantic 252 started around the time, when I've noticed the 207 kHz from Spain. Initially I thought this would be a LW revival but the 207 kHz from Spain went off air quickly.

183 Europe1, 234 RTL as well as 153 with the Deutschland-Funk were always there as long as I can remember, same with the 198 from the BBC. Sometimes I picked up the 270 from Czechoslovakia.

It'll be interesting how long the 198 will stay on air, or whether the 252 will go first?

Glaceon

I remember my school bus in 6th class was a Ford Transit minibus. It was MW/LW only; in the mornings the driver had Morning Ireland on (567 MW of course) and then Atlantic 252 on the way home.

Antenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392908#Comment_120392908

I do not recall any Spanish transmitter on 207. I do recall the German transmitter there in the past, I could receive very weakly by day.

And the (recently closed) Icelandic 207 could be got very weakly by day (groundwave) when on the west Coast of Ireland with a total sea path to Iceland (as well as at night conditions further afield)

It is highly unlikely that a group would just do a "test" on LW and then abandon it considering the large size aerial etc needed to be effective on LW in the first place.

You have repeatedly said there were broadcasts from Spain (if shortlived) on 207kHz LW, however no one else seems to have heard this?, and there is absolutely nothing historical online I can find about this (from DXers etc) ?

This seems to be a reliable list of past and present broadcasts in Europe etc on LW, however no mention of any past Spanish transmissions on 207 (or 209) - active LW stations at the top, closed/inactive stations further down the page in grey.

https://www.asiawaves.net/longwave-radio.htm

dxhound2005

There is another link which lists it as being RNE5 from Logroño, with a 300 metre mast. But it must have been very short lived, as I cannot see it in any of the old World Radio TV Handbooks. I never heard it myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longwave_radio_broadcasters

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393222#Comment_120393222

As said, I can confirm that I've definitely received a Spanish language station on 207 kHz. You can take my word for that, or you can also chose not to believe it. If it was a test or just a short-lived broadcast for some other reason I can't say. This has been several decades ago. There is no point in arguing about that one today. There is probably no real way to find out about that today.

[Deleted User]

Speaking of which, who here remembers that Isle of Man farcical longwave project that was "coming soon" for many years back in the 00s ? Either the people involved were on lsd or it was a front for some sort of tax dodging/Money laundering.

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393353#Comment_120393353

This was MusicMan 279, as far as I remember.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393306#Comment_120393306

There is one link here:

https://swling.com/blog/2020/06/video-1954-inauguration-of-ree-rne-shortwave-radio-transmitters/

One entry states:

Jos

January 11, 2023 at 7:13 am

RNE was briefly broadcasting on Long Wave 207 kHz at their Logrono transmitter but shut it down rather quickly due to lack of interest and high overhead cost. I think this was at some point in the 80ies.

I would suggest that's at least some form of plausible or possible evidence? I wouldn't trust Wikipedia too much on transmitters and broadcasting history what frequencies are concerned.

dxhound2005

Wikipedia articles are written by people. If you were going to correct the information, what exactly would you say?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393443#Comment_120393443

If the question is directed at me, I'd try to make it as truthful as possible. Possibly stating that there are reports that this or that happened.

If you want a real answer you might have to write to RNE to get it confirmed, that is if anybody still has records not lost records or is old enough to remember.

I am a bit surprised that there is so much talk on a LW transmitter which may or may not have been briefly on air. If the RNE was briefly or longer on air on LW there are probably a number of reasons for that.

I can only guess that if the signal was received in Ireland the signal would have been weak. The 207 would have been in use in Iceland as well as Morocco and even in Germany? So together with Spain there would have been 4 transmitters in Europe on 207. Maybe it was really just a test broadcast? Or Morocco was serving as a relay for Spain? Also possible?

dxhound2005

Wikipeda did not say anything incorrect. They listed the information for Spain in the closed transmitters section. Other information from other sources, does not conflict with that. Your link referenced the Wikipedia listing as well.

"Not a comment about REE/RNE shortwave but RNE5 Logrono listed as being on LONG WAVE ! Was is ever transmitting on Long Wave (207kHz ?? ). Mentioned in Wikipedia info about Logrono town . Was Spain ever on Longwave , other than perhaps experimental/unauthorised Txs in the early days of Radio ?

Des Walsh"

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393564#Comment_120393564

No, I meant, in general Wikipedia isn't too exact on frequencies and the likes, just my experience. That doesn't mean it's the same in this case.

Suppose one thing: RNE was relaying on 207 from Morocco and at the same time using the 207 at a lower power to cover the North of Spain? ( possibly as a test?)

171 from Medi 1 from Morocco reaches most of Spain to date, except the North. The same would have been with the 207 from Morocco and they used the Logrono transmitter just to cover the North. Same as BBC R4 with their transmitters in Droitwich, Burghead and Westerglen, - all on 198 kHz.

In the case of Spain and Morocco both on 207 kHz this may have been a test?

I personally would find it hard to believe if Morocco on 207 and Logrono on 207 were broadcasting something different. This clearly would not have worked, - but that's my interpretation today.

Just all speculation on my part.

Also coming back to the wikipedia link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longwave_radio_broadcasters

For 207 kHz under inactive transmitters it lists:

RNE Radio 5

SpainLogroñoDirectional antenna, 300 metres tall.>100

and:

SNRT Al-Idaa Al-Watania

MoroccoAzilal Demnate304.8 metres (1,000 ft) tall guyed mast 400

My conclusion: 400 kW from Morocco and 100 kW from Spain would not have been a good idea, unless they were relaying the same content.

Maybe it was really just a test.

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393612#Comment_120393612

Interesting point you raised here.

One would have to take into account that to date Medi1 has 1600 kW on 171 kHz and Chaine 3 1500 kW on 252 kHz.

Both a lot of power to be considered. If the 207 kHz in Morocco was transmitting with a similar power, it would most likely have covered the whole of Spain as well, - and the 207 kHz in Logrono Spain would have only acted to cover the northern parts of Spain? That is if Morocco was carrying RNE as a test?

After all, the 252 ( currently 150 kW, 500 in former times?) from Ireland as well as the 252 from Algeria are already an issue what reception is concerned, especially in parts of the UK like Kent.

dxhound2005

Long wave looks to have been as crowded as medium wave back in the day. Germany and Ukraine were both on 207, and lots of other possible conflicts. Finland and Russia may have been on 252 before Algeria and Ireland. It is up to the broadcasters to decide how they want to go, if their administration has been given a frequency allocation. Plenty of conflicts on medium wave now, and in the heyday of short wave, frequency allocation was always contentious.

Spain has four transmitters on 531 medium wave, and probably the locals don't hear the powerhouse from Algeria. Even if it is putting out segments in Spanish as part of their international service. Just like UK listeners never noticed Spain on 1215 when Absolute was there. So I think with Logrono being 1,000 kilometres from Morocco, they could have co-existed.

TAFKAlawhec

I don't recall any Spanish-based LW TX broadcasting on 207 kHz from memory, though that doesn't mean of course that it never existed. Also, unless a valid citation is provided for a piece of information in a Wikipeida article never take any such info as gospel.

But looking further into it, I have a PDF copy of the second edition of the 1975 Geneva Conference frequency book that lists the agreed frequency allocations for MW & LW transmissions in most of the world outside of the Americas, which dates to 1981 and includes additional allocations applied for and granted from after the 1975 agreement. Looking at 209 kHz (later 207 kHz), there is no allocation for Spain on this frequency. The allocations are...

* Passau (West Germany), 500kW ND 0400-1800, 250kW Dir 1800-0400

* Caltanissetta (Italy), 60kW ND 24H

* Kiev/Kyiv (Ukraine/USSR), 500kW ND 24H

* Tachkent/Tashkent (Uzbekistan/USSR), 50kW ND 24H

Iceland Syncs...

* Eidar, 50kW ND 0700-0200

* Floinn, 500kW ND 0700-0200

Mongolia Syncs...

* Dalantszasagad, 150kW ND 2200-0800

* Muren, 150kW ND 2200-0800

* Tchoibolsan, 75kW ND 2200-0800

* Ulgei, 60kW ND 2200-1500

Soviet Union Syncs...

* Blagovechtchen, 30kW ND 24H

* Skovorodino, 30kW ND 24H

However there were LW allocations for Spain in GE75...

* 191/189 kHz - Madrid, 1000kW Dir 24H

* 227/225 kHz - Barcelona, 800kW Dir 24H (Sync)

* 227/225 kHz - Bilbao, 400kW Dir 24H (Sync)

* 227/225 kHz - Linares, 400kW Dir 24H (Sync)

* 227/225 kHz - Lugo, 200kW Dir 24H (Sync)

...the problem with these allocations were not only did they have directional restrictions, the restrictions in certain directions were quite severe, for example the Madrid allocation had directional restrictions between 020-040 degrees to an ERP of 100kW and an even more punitive restriction between 070-110 degrees to just 12.5kW - difficult to accomodate on MW without some elaborate antenna setups and for LW this would require even more land & ironmongery - since it didn't appear at the time that Spain was using the LW bands for broadcasting during the 1970's, RNE likely decided it wasn't worth putting these LW allocations into practice. There was something very similar in the Netherlands, were there was a 500kW allocation from Lopik on 173/171 kHz but had various directional restrictions between 020-210 degrees down as low as 25kW between 060-080 degrees presumably to protect the USSR 1000kW allocation at Kaliningrad.

For similar reasons, the 254/252 kHz allocation for Ireland (originally marked down for Tullamore) was for 500kW non-directional during the day from a 300 metre vertical radiator between 0600-1800 hours, but for between 1800-0600 hours had two directional restrictions between 040-070 and 140-190 degrees to minimise interference to same channel allocations to Finland and Algeria respectively, limiting night-time radiated power in these directions to 100kW (500kW in all other directions). When the mast for Atlantic 252 was being constructed, it was clearly decided that rather than build a directional aerial system it was simpler to just reduced the ERP from the single mast to 100kW from 500kW at 6pm each evening - which might explain why in their early days Atlantic 252 shut down at 7pm and asked listeners to retune to Radio Luxembourg's English service on 1440 kHz.

---

Notes...

1. I also have the PDF of the original (first edition) GE75 allocations - notable additions to the second addition was the 612 kHz allocation added for RTÉ Radio 2 from Athlone as well as five allocations for the new BBC MW TX site at Ennsikillen that was built in the early 1980's (693, 774, 873, 1053 & 1197 kHz).

2. There are also third & fourth editions available of the GE75 allocations booklet, but these versions I have omit the actual frequency allocations tables! IIRC the 4th edition dates to 1989.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397044#Comment_120397044

Thanks for your research. If the 207 kHz in Morocco had directional restrictions towards Spain, than it could have been possible that the 207 kHz in Logrono could have had a different programme than the one in Morocco.

The only document I came up is from RNE:

There the text reads:

1. En las ondas largas, se procede a una reserva general a favor de RNE para un servicio específico de atención a las necesidades rurales, por lo que se le asigna dos frecuencias y se fijan un número máximo de cinco estaciones emisoras. Según el artículo 2, las estaciones de acuerdo con el Plan serian: en la frecuencia de 191 Khzs, en Madrid, con una potencia de 1.000 Kms, y en la frecuencia de 227 Khzs, en Barcelona (800 kws), Bilbao (400 Kws), Linares(400 Kws) y Lugo (200 Kws). En la actualidad no se si están en funcionamiento o si se están utilizando estas frecuencias para otros fines

Which basically means that these frequencies have been reserved to be used in rural areas for rural needs. And reserved would mean, they never went into active service.

I don't see any motivation by a listener to see any benefit of reporting on something which didn't happen, and when it did it only happened for a couple of months. Thus I believe that the 207 kHz in Spain was in use at some point, quite possibly only a trial or some other test.

The other thought I've had is what if it was really Morocco and they had a Spanish language programme on? Not impossible to think that Morocco was at times and certain hours transmitting in Spanish. Both the Spanish as well as the French were colonial powers and these languages, especially French is still strongly in use in Morocco.

TAFKAlawhec

If Chris Cary was able to lash up a transmission system to broadcast for a short time on 254 kHz back in the winter of 85-86 (albeit at low levels as far as long wave goes, suggestions I've heard were between 15-50kW), then I'm sure the likes of RNE would have been able to lash up a similarly powered system as well if needed.

Though myself? I'd need the word of several collaborating sources to be reasonably certain of a transmission claim - if you're the only person making the claim, you'd need some fairly solid evidence to convince most others in the hobby (a QSL card was, and to some extent still is, the traditional way of verifying the reception of a transmission) that you you heard was real. It's possible at that frequency that some radios can suffer problems like image rejection, for example I've seen radios "pick up" Talk Sport on 189 kHz, even though it obviously doesn't broadcast on that frequency.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397774#Comment_120397774

Incidentally, wasn't the 252 transmitter and mast brought in from Texas? Wasn't there a European source for that one?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397792#Comment_120397792

Continental Electronics, who also provided the transmitter for RTE Radio 2/2FM at Athlone.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397906#Comment_120397906

Is it known what the reason was for the frequent downtime of the 252? They were quite often off air recently, apparently due to some engineering work, but what precisely needed to be done? Does anybody know?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397968#Comment_120397968

I don’t think anyone knows for sure. The Continentals were replaced with a Transradio solid state unit in 2007 so it should be fairly reliable.