What Can be Picked up on Long Wave Around Ireland?

Declan A Walsh

Looking at another thread about long wave prompted this one. AM is split between Medium Wave and Long Wave. Radio 1 of course, for the time being, transmit on 252metres Long Wave, as well as their FM transmitters and online. I no longer have a radio with Long Wave. What else can be picked up on it? Obviously, judging by another thread, French station RTL is one of them for the short-term anyway. Any BBC stations? I remember when BBC Radio 2 used to be very clear on Long Wave many years ago. In the last decade, I remember picking up Radio 4 there.

StreetLight

BBC Radio 4 is there on 198kHz. Superb quality too.

Glaceon

Radio 2 was on Long Wave on 200 kHz until 1978 when Radio 4 took over that frequency. It was shifted down to 198 in the late 80s and has been there ever since. I wonder what state the transmitter is in now, being 37 years old? I'm aware of the media coverage a while back but that sounded like someone heard about it being valve-based and latched on to it as some ancient relic.

cml387

I remember I had a LW radio once which must have been slightly mistuned as I was able to receive aviation non-directional beacons whic transmit on frequencies just above commercial LW.

I remember a particularly strong signal (slow morse reading BNY) which was a radio beacon rear Bunratty castle, long since removed.

tinytobe

Radio 2 was the "Light Programme" back in the days. I doubt anybody online here would remember that one, and yes, they were on LW 198 prior to Radio 4 taking over that frequency.

Since the question was asked, yes it's an old transmitter and they bought all the still available valves for storage, just in case.

I also remember navigation beacons on LW, I recall there is or was one near Heathrow airport.

The French also have a time signal on 162 I think.

Morocco on 171 may make it to Ireland at night time.

dxhound2005

The LW band starts at 153 kHz and goes up to 279 in 9 kHz channels, with frequences being divisible by 9. That is what put the BBC on to 198 when new channels were agreed for LW and MW. Currently with a good receiver and aerial I can hear Romania 153, France 162 (time signals), Morocco 171, Iceland 189, UK 198, Iceland 207, Poland 225, Luxembourg 234 (closing end of 2022), Denmark 243, Ireland and Algeria 252. Signals travel much futher during darkness hours.

http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php

Between the LW and MW (starts at 531 kHz) bands there are loads of beacons sending their ID's in morse code. Below 153 there are lots of digital signals, including a time signal on 77.5 from Germany which regulates the time on my watch. There is another time signal on 60 from GB. All of these can be heard on the Kiwi online receivers, a few of which are in Ireland. 518 and 490 khz are Navtex broadcasts, marine navigational bulletins. Select NAVTEX/DSC from the Extensions drop down menu on a Kiwi receiver.

http://kiwisdr.com/public/

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775615#Comment_119775615

LW radios are rather hard to come by these days. I still have one myself.

With Kiwi SDR you can pick any receiver on offer.

I doubt that you can receive 252 from Algeria, if the same frequency is on air in Ireland.

The signal on 77.5 from Germany is probably the time signal from some atomic clock.

dxhound2005

77.5 kHz is a 50 kilowatt transmitter designed to regulate timepieces all over Europe. I have a radio controlled watch. It does not need as much power as a broadcaster due to the type of modulation used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77#:~:text=The%20highly%20accurate%2077.5%20kHz,legal%20time%20to%20the%20public.

Your LW radio should have an internal ferrite rod aerial with directional properties. At night you should be able to null RTE and make Algeria dominant on the channel. Best to do this when one station has music and the other one has speech.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119777599#Comment_119777599

I have a Sony clock radio for LW reception. It picks up Morocco at night with ease, same as Romania, and BBC Radio 4 and Iceland all day.

This radio doesn't have the functionality you described, but it's in general very sensitive on all AM bands. Interestingly it can shift from 9kHz to 10kHz on MW which is nice to have if in Ireland, to pick up signals from North America.

yiddo59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778352#Comment_119778352

Out of interest what model Sony is it?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787387#Comment_119787387

It's a Sony ICF C273L.

wildwillow

I listen to BBC radio 4 on long wave on an old Sony Walkman SRF-M37L. Use google when indoors and sometimes my phone for TuneIn.

Ive also got a Sony clock radio in the bedroom, model ICF C220L. I bought it about 1982 and it’s still perfect for listening to long wave.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787519#Comment_119787519

You'll probably be able to pick up Iceland, Morocco and sometimes Denmark. The BBC Radio 4 signal would be strong, they actually have 3 big transmitters, two of them in Scotland.

Baseball72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774805#Comment_119774805

"The Light Programme" indeed - I remember it well. Also, the "Home Service"(which would most likely be Radio 4 today) used to have the intro before the news of "This is London..." followed by the chimes of Big Ben if memory services.

bad2thebone

I love the sound of longwave, that mono tone. It sounds like long ago. Add in the odd crackling sound here and there. And it feels like I'm in old time's 🙌

cml387

"This is London" followed by the sig. Lillibulero was the BBC World service identification for many years.

Lillibulero has anti-Catholic links to the 17th and 18th century so was dropped some years ago.

The Home service became Radio 4 in 1967 and in fact had it's own signature tune written by Steve Race but it hasn't been used for decades

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789626#Comment_119789626

It's not only that, but it's the simple technology as well. It's relatively simple from a technical point of view to send as well as receive an AM signal.

Antenna

RTE on 252 currently off the air this Sat evening, so Algeria being heard there in the clear

Update: came back on the air at 7pm approx, but this lasted only a few minutes, currently off again

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809148#Comment_119809148

They're back on now. Maybe it was only some maintenance work?

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119813013#Comment_119813013

Aertel p.169 says it was due to a technical fault. A little embarrassing for such a problem to occur so soon after scheduled maintenance.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814537#Comment_119814537

I don't want to express any pleasures for RTE's misfortunes on the LW transmitter, but strictly from a technical aspect, I'd be interested to know what really happened? - rather than a shallow and non-descriptive "technical fault".

dxhound2005

I never saw a detailed technical report published for any outage. The BBC are having ongoing problems with the Radio 4 LW transmitter in England, and they only say essential engineering.

"Essential engineering work is taking place on the Droitwich transmitter that will involve a period of shutdown for up to 8 hours on radio between Wednesday 28th September and Friday 14th October." - BBC Reception Help

Pelvis Parsley

The R4 feed suffers badly from sibilance at times-it is documented at length on at least one of the vintage radio fora in the UK.

I recall that one of the BBC technical staff reads the thread, but again, not a lot is forthcoming-as I understand it, infrastructural maintenance is contracted out anyway.

In relation to RTE, the last thing I'd expect from them is transparency. They would close Clarkstown in the morning, but for political pressure.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119817429#Comment_119817429

BBC Radio 4 has 3 strong transmitters on 198, two of them in Scotland and one in England. The forth one is in a tunnel underneath the river Thames to provide coverage in the tunnel.

If one of the 3 transmitters is down, two of them are still there. Theoretically the one in England can cover the whole of the British Isles. I do understand the reason for the transmitter in the tunnel, but the rest of the three stronger ones are probably there to back each other up, just in case....?

cml387

As many will probably know, the R4 LW signal is used as part of the UK's nuclear forces, in that loss of reception of R4 (along with other obvious clues like loss of contact with command and control) is take to mean a nuclear attack has taken place.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818222#Comment_119818222

I have heard this story often, but I don't think it's really true. There is also the story about communication with nuclear submarines of the Royal Navy. Neither the French nor the US-Americans do have something similar.

What I believe more to be the case is in event of a nuclear attack, submarines are to check whether BBC Radio 4 still has conversations and discussions as well as live news broadcasts going on with the objective to check whether there is still civilization in the UK.

From a strict military and communications point of view BBC Radio 4 has nothing much to do with submarines and the Royal Navy. Also UK shipping vessels do not rely on the shipping forecast on BBC Radio 4, but VHF signals off ports where the shipping forecast is repeated many times every day.

Submarines communicate on a different frequency, very very low, way lower than 198kHz to make communication under water possible. The rate of transmission is very slow and limited, though, often just limited to ASCII code. I think they would deploy some kind of buoy staying around 20 or 30 meters below surface to pick up signals and take orders, but am not certain about that.

Higher frequencies tend to "bounce off" the surface of the water, whilst low AM frequencies are able to penetrate under the surface to some degree.

cml387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818338#Comment_119818338

I did say that it was only one of the factors taken into account in the event a submarine commander had lost contact with his normal chain of command. As you say it would only be used to see if there was any normal activity under way in the UK.

That being said, although the LW signal can penetrate further underwater than higher frequencies, the range would still be limited to fairly close to the UK.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818209#Comment_119818209

The two in Scotland are 50 kilowatt, the big one in central England is 500 kilowatt. The reason for the Scottish ones is that the 500 kilowatt cannot give reliable coverage in Scotland.

And Radio 4 is on medium wave around the UK, to give better local coverage than that available on LW and FM. In NI they are on 720 kHz from two transmitters in Belfast and Derry and on 774 from Enniskillen. In Scotland they are on 1449 for the Aberdeen area.

It was the same here with the 500 kilowatt transmitter in Tullamore on medium wave. A local 10 kilowatt transmitter had to be operated in Cork also to give reliable coverage in that area.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818553#Comment_119818553

I was always a bit surprised about the 720 kHz and the 774 as well as the 1449 for Radio 4.

There is also the 1485, the 603 as well as the 756 in use for parts of the UK?

Maybe somebody can enlighten me why a MW transmitter is in use as well? It's not that the LW reception is that bad. The Aberdeen transmitter is actually quite close to Burghead as well as Westerglen.

Also AM audience of BBC Radio 4 for seems to get lower more and more, except for listeners in Ireland, or maybe North of France.

dxhound2005

A lot of it could be down to history. But they are on the way out. You can search this document for Aberdeen, Enniskillen etc.

http://www.frequencyfinder.org.uk/Opinion_AM.pdf

Summary

"AM radio in the British Isles is now in terminal decline with audiences dropping and many transmitters closed already. The majority of the remaining transmitters will likely close by the end of 2027. Over the next few years, the BBC and major commercial broadcasters will be looking to minimise their AM transmission costs by reducing transmission powers at the high-power sites and closing some of the low-power transmitters serving small audiences. A coordinated AM shutdown may then follow at some point, most likely in 2027, though some independent broadcasters may continue using AM beyond this. This article explores these issues in more detail."

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818831#Comment_119818831

I'd say the problem is that different generations have different listening habits, from AM, to FM, to DAB, to online. That's also the problem the BBC has when faced with the need to save cost.

marno21

Radio 4 is on medium wave to fill in gaps where longwave reception is difficult

603 (Newcastle), 1449 (Aberdeen) and 1485 (Carlisle) are there to provide signal where there are "mush zones" between the 198 transmitters. The 198 transmitter at Burghead in North Scotland and the 198 transmitter at Westerglen in South Scotland do not interfere with one another despite their proximity as the land inbetween them is rock and not conducive to good ground wave propogation. Therefore the 198 from Burghead does not interfere with 198 from Westerglen in Glasgow/Edinburgh but as Aberdeen is in east coastal Scotland with better ground between it and the 2 transmitters, it requires a medium wave fill in as that better ground condition creates a mush zone between the 2 Scottish 198 transmitters. There is a mush zone between 198 Droitwich and 198 Westerglen in the English/Scottish border area hence the medium wave relays in Newcastle and Carlisle.

Northern Ireland has relays on 720 (Belfast/Lisnagarvey), 720 (Derry) and 774 (Enniskillen) due to the distance between NI and the UK mainland transmitters, and also the interference between Droitwich and Westerglen

Plymouth (774) and West Cornwall (756) have medium wave relays as the terrain across central Devon heavily attenuates the 198 LW signal and R4 LW signal is quite poor in those areas. 756kHz from Redruth, being in western Cornwall, is easily receivable along the Cork coast day and night, useful if your car radio does not have LW like mine.

London has 720kHz from Crystal Palace for any number of reasons, extra LW programming availability for such a large population, access to Today in Parliament in Westminster/Whitehall (urban legend), electromagnetic interference being higher in the urban area etc.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819871#Comment_119819871

Thanks for that one. The explanation for London is something I've suspected for a long time.

Apart from that, I've never really noticed any issues with the 198 kHz transmitter anywhere in the UK and Ireland.

Declan A Walsh

Deleted or next best thing

<Delete>

Antenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816352#Comment_119816352

It came back on sometime Sunday afternoon.

Sunday morning on RTE R1, John Bowman's weekly archive programme looked at the early days of radio in Ireland. It was a bit ironic that their (LW) transmission which would be compatible with vintage (no FM) receivers was off the air at the time.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/bowman-sunday-830/programmes/2022/1030/1332243-bowman-sunday-830-sunday-30-october-2022/

Viscount Aggro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119826417#Comment_119826417

Do you not think this man has taken enough money from us already?

I cant listen to him anymore.

OK, he is a consultant, but its people like him that are denying younger talent from getting work in media.

He is the worst example of the D4 clique.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818222#Comment_119818222

That's very much an urban legend - never been any hint of evidence that this is in place. In any case, even long wave radio signals can't penetrate more than around 20 metres below the surface of seawater, and most navy submarines will dive to depths a good bit deeper than this. Most one-way traffic to submerged military vessels is done on frequencies lower than this (ideally on VLF below 30kHz, but transmissions are in place up to 150 kHz) using frequency shift-keying in an encrypted format, received by vessels that often use trailing wire aerials that have a buoy attached to it. The very small bandwidth and small SNR required for messages to be received make up for hostile receiving conditions using a relatively inefficient aerial (only a fraction of a wavelength long) where a LW broadcast carrier would struggle to be detected. In any case, relying on a simple carrier for measuring national security has an obvious flaw - it's pretty damn easy to fake. I suspect this story about BBC R4 LW being part of the UK Navy defence system was brought about by certain interested people as an excuse to try and portray the transmissions as an essential part of the UK defence forces. Much more soberingly closer to the truth is that in recent years it has largely been GB electricity companies that has paid to keep these transmissions going (the LW TXs at least) as the carrier uses phase modulation to activate electrical meters for various timed tariffs like the famed Economy 7. This was due to end when the roll out of "smart meters" was completed but for various reasons has been delayed several times. Supposedly the current contract for this with Arqiva expires at the end of March 2023 - depending on circumstances the end of BBC R4 on LW may come quite quickly and suddenly.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819871#Comment_119819871

In my experience, reception of 198 kHz in Belfast is usually decent as long as there isn't much man-made interference, but starts to degrade once you head westwards and hit the shores of Lough Neagh. In Omagh it's pretty much an anorak quality level - not in that it's very weak, but that it is clearly in a mush zone of two weakish signals from both Droitwich & Westerglen that suffers from a lot of echo and that pretty much goes for the whole service area of 774 kHz from Enniskillen in my experience. Daytime coverage of 774 kHz is good for 500 watts of ERP, but it does shrink at night thanks to heavy CCI from Spain.

Given that the long term plan is for Radio 4 to discontinue its otherwise long-standing LW (with MW fillers) opt-outs, a listenership to the LW service exclusively that is privately thought to be very small, rising energy costs and a cost in maintaining old AM transmitters & masts, at best the LW/MW BBC Radio 4 network has five or so years left before going dark - but if the rumours concerning electric companies no longer wanting to co-pay electric costs for the LW transmitters are true, then it could even be gone in less than six months.

cml387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847715#Comment_119847715

The source was well regarded academic Peter Hennessy, his book The Secret State: Preparing For The Worst 1945–2010 is a good read.

I suspect it is a very much last ditch check, when all else has failed.

Antenna

RTE on 252kHz is currently just a blank carrier tonight. Perhaps the link to it has broken down? ( though an FM receive of RTE R1 would be a simple obvious backup)

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875373#Comment_119875373

No, the transmitter of 252 will shut down for scheduled maintenance. I expect this will only take one day, which will be tomorrow.

The 252 should be back on the air, on the 16th.

Antenna

Back on the air now.. It was not off tonight due to scheduled maintenance

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875459#Comment_119875459

Apparently that's tomorrow, then. However not certain.

Pelvis Parsley

The R4 check is apparently just one of a number of fail safes which a surfacing sub (there's generally only one at a time) can call upon to ensure the continuation of civilisation-such as it is-in Britain.

The loss of Droitwich will be no means pre-empt the nuclear deterrent, nor will it turn off Auntie Mabel's hot water-smart metering is swiftly putting paid to that.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875538#Comment_119875538

Went off just after the news, around 9:05. It went into a looped announcement for about a minute and then the transmitter was switched off.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119876145#Comment_119876145

I've just noticed it as well. Algeria is in the background and clearly audible.

tinytobe

RTE 252 seems to be on air again.

tinytobe

Apparently, the 252 will go off air again tomorrow, the 22nd of November. Is the reason known for the constant shut down of the transmitter?

tinytobe

RTL Radio on 234 kHz is now gone for good on your LW dial. The transmitter was turned off this morning.

Antenna

RTE's 252 LW off the air this morning, I presume a breakdown

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063173#Comment_120063173

Given the apparent level of maintenance on this transmitter recently it’s amazing it’s not more resilient to breakdowns