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30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    any bike where the motor can propel it forward without the rider pedalling OR can provide assistance above 25kmh OR has a continuous output higher capable of going higher than 250W is legally a moped. it's an MPV. as Seth mentioned, it's not policed though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,465 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Which is a shame. Chances are, they'll police the 30kph proposals just as admirably. So why bother?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Either way, they shouldn't be on the footpath nor exceeding 30kph.

    I never said they should but you were the one who IIRC claimed to have been hit by a bicycle on a path whereas legally you weren't. You were hit by someone illegally using a MPV on a footpath. But it suits a certain narrative to say it was a cyclist, etc.


    Anyhow, let's get back to the idea of 30km/h default speed limits in urban areas.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    signed into law by shane ross in 2018.

    basically the text in the link below states that a cyclist must use cycling infrastructure if it's provided through a pedestrianised area, or is a contra flow lane; it essentially removed the requirement to use any cycle infrastructure when provided. this had already been done by leo varadkar when the was in transport in 2011 or 2012, but the wording was legally ham fisted, and was clarified under ross.

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/si/321/made/en/pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,465 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    OK I was hit by a Mopedist. 😏

    I trust that they will be at least subject to the same 30kph limits proposed - even if they can't be bothered to police the 25kph limit?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I've yet to see the rules/acts stating that you should cycle in the middle of the road to act defensive. So whoever is giving this advice should not be doing so.

    the reason you don't see an act stating whether cyclists should cycle in the middle of the lane is that acts don't provide advice. they state what is mandatory or what is disallowed. the reason it's 'advice' and not 'direction' is precisely because the law does not disallow it.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sorry, you cannot make up your own definition of what is or isn't a bicycle and post it on here as a fact as it might mislead others. The dictionary isn't a legal source.

    A bicycle is currently:

    -- a pedal bicycle with no assistance, or

    -- an electric bicycle where the power on the motor cuts out at 25km/h, the motor also cuts out if the rider stops pedalling, and has a maximum continuous rated power of no more than 0.25 KW.

    Can we please get back to the topic at hand? Thanks.

    -- Moderator



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The speed limit will apply to the vehicles it normally applies to. That shouldn't need to be explained.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Fine, I give up. As long as they keep it off the Rock Road and N11 Donnybrook, that's fine. Confine it to neighbourhoods and side roads.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, back on topic; i'm going to do a little calculation and this might be a bit wordy but i am laying out my calculations in the hope that if i've made a mistake, someone can spot it.

    the usual example i use of driving in urban traffic is DCU to UCD or vice versa. it's approx 11km, and currently google maps is estimating 31 minutes to drive it. that's an average speed - on a summer saturday afternoon - of 22km/h. most roads used have a speed limit of 50km/h (with the stretch between UCD and donnybrook at 60km/h IIRC), so cars are reaching less than half the average speed that the speed limits would allow.

    let's say the car could only do 50km/h or zero. no inbetween speeds. that implies that the car would spend 13 minutes moving and 18 stopped (it takes 13 minutes to drive 11km at 50km/h). it'd take 9 minutes longer if the car was limited to 30km/h instead of 50km/h (and this may not be accurate - that is based on an the assumption that the time spent *stopped* would be the same)

    based on that, we've a theoretical max difference of nine minutes. and that's a *maximum* - in reality, the difference would be a lot less because a lot of the time spent moving would be well under 50km/h anyway. and it's also worth pointing out that (AFAIK!) most of the roads used in that particular example will remain at 50km/h anyway.

    add heavy traffic, and the difference will shrink even further.

    or, TL;DR - if you were only allowed drive at 30km/h instead of 50km/h, it'd cost you a theoretical *max* of 8 minutes for every 10km you drive. you'd drive clear across dublin in less than 20km (the M1/M50 roundabout to leopardstown racecourse is 19km)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,465 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    It'd be a bit weird to have a 30kph limit on a dual carriageway alright. There's probably plenty of other good examples of urban arterial roads that it shouldn't apply to either. Can't see it staying off the Rock road though. How could it be justified vs any other urban "R" road?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, it's not going to be policed. however, the sort of person who would do, say 60km/h in a 50 zone might end up doing 45 in a 30 zone, even without policing. i've noticed this where i grew up, when visiting my parents - they introduced a 30km/h limit on delwood road in blanchardstown and while people are still breaking the limit, the average speed you see cars doing on the road (in my experience) is noticeably reduced.

    a reduction of 60 to 45 is a 44% reduction in kinetic energy of the vehicle - with a similar reduction in braking distances, etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Funny you mention it...

    Some of the most interesting speeds caught included:


    87km/h in a 50km/h Zone on the R118 Rock Road Dublin 4 Dublin

    6. Rock Road 50 km/h to 30 km/h, St. Mary's Boys National School, Booterstown Parish Youth Club ,Willow Park Junior School, Blackrock Clinic Bariatric Surgery , Blackrock Park

    This seems to be an older report though...



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    those chicanes have been there for many years; if you go back to the 2009 imagery on street view, they're there - just in case anyone reading your post assumed they were introduced along with the 30km/h limit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Good point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,465 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Yeah, but the thread was started in 2022 and the title says "for all urban areas". I wasn't sure if we're only discussing certain urban areas defined 2 years previously? Quite a bit of the rock road is flanked by houses so it'd probably be weird not to include it?

    (actually, maybe it makes no difference? If they limit every other road, the traffic might migrate to the roads remaining at 50kph and thereby increase volume and reduce overall speed due to stop/start nature of these roads with various traffic lights, wardens and awkward junctions.)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,629 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the stretch of the rock road between the toyota garage (carroll and kinsella, IIRC) and the turnoff for the village wouldn't be badly affected anyway - i used to commute to and from work along it, and it was usually well jammed up. i was on the bike and would usually easily outpace a car along that stretch.

    the section past the clinic (with the red brick houses opposite) was hairy at times with people swapping lanes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,592 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Car traffic doesn’t travel at 50 kmph in Dublin. 1/10th of that would be more accurate.


    Do you not pull over in traffic to let faster cyclists through from behind?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    If I'm stationary, I am most likely at a red light. Also, it depends on the labe width. With a cycle lane present, I will keep it clear. Anyway, we'll leave it there. No winning here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,592 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Not stationary, just the usual crawling in traffic, noted in the data in the article quoted. Do you not have the courtesy to pull in to let faster cyclists through from behind?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Usually, they pass left and right of me negating any need to pull aside. So, I amn't particularly bothered as long they stop at the red lights ahead which many do actually. In crawling conditions, I would consider the safety aspect pretty self regulated. I do check my mirrors and blind spots to see if who is coming up behind me and if I can pull aside, I will space permitting.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So, I amn't particularly bothered as long they stop at the red lights ahead which many do actually.

    ...and yet you still have to get a dig in. No mention of the drivers who break red lights which is a very frequent and much more dangerous occurrence - it's just about making a dig at people on bikes who do it (not that anyone should!).



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So, I amn't particularly bothered as long they stop at the red lights ahead which many do actually.

    ...and yet you still have to get a dig in. No mention of the drivers who break red lights which is a very frequent and much more dangerous occurrence - it's just about making a dig at people on bikes who do it (not that anyone should!).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Funny you mention that seth as I frequently refer to this fact (drivers breaking red lights etc.) and the inherent dangers it creates as I realise that motorists are far from being angels on the road. By reading my from start to finish, you might actually see this. End of!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I realise that motorists are far from being angels on the road. By reading my from start to finish, you might actually see this. End of!

    Forgive my perspective which was based on your initial contributions to the thread which included you describing double standards being applied when cyclists travel legally either in pairs on towards the middle of the lane (and as recommended by the RSA) but using this to state that "they get to act what ever way they want regardless of whether or not they are being an inconvenience. This reeks of freeloading and a sense of entitlement. It is also a very infantile attitude." - which to be honest is a feckin stupid perspective purely because it completely ignores all safety advise and reeks of driver entitlement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,592 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I guess the cyclists cycling two abreast that you were moaning about assume that drivers behind them will pass right, negating any need to pull aside. Just like you really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I'm done with you. You're just being a smart ass. The calibre of comments in this thread are beyond childish. Cyclists and motorists are 2 different classes of road user each with their own set of rules apparently.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Ironically you are correct.

    Consider then why cyclists are irrelevant in a conversation about a 30kph limit. Can you join the dots why that is?



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