Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

ohnonotgmail · 01-05-2023 09:51AM

Does anybody actually care what David Quinn thinks? Does he have an audience outside Catholic extremists?

aloyisious · 01-05-2023 12:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542116#Comment_120542116

Yes, a lot - though not all - of whom are from outside the RCC and Ireland fortunately, all intent on turning the referendum vote result on its head. We are approaching the fundamentalist marching season. I think he is "seasoning", as it were, the anti-abortion marchers up for a noisy reprise. He also wrote that the review wants to lift the FFA 28 day limit because - his words - [some of the babies can live for weeks, months and even years after birth despite their condition]. Note he used the word birth, not the abortion, when writing those words. He claims the review wishes to decriminalize abortion. He wrote that would be the most radical proposal of all, that it would mean that a doctor could perform an abortion at any stage of the pregnancy and not be prosecuted, that not even Britain goes this far.

Another use of alternative words to "floodgates" used in earlier campaigns to stir the fundamentalists.

It's not a revelation now that we do have non-RCC home-grown fundamentalist religious people here in Ireland outside the groups imported to attend and increase the head-count at the anti-abortion rallies held here.

My apologies: listened to news headlines, apparently the anti-abortion rally was on in Dublin today. I thought it was next month at the earliest. Glad I was not in town then.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-05-2023 01:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542116#Comment_120542116

Quinn's articles and interviews often contain statements which are at variance with reality.

robindch · 11-05-2023 11:53AM

Quinn's articles and interviews often contain statements which are at variance with reality.

As a professional sh*t-stirrer, Quinn's strict adherence to the reality we all live would take a back seat to, well, stirring the sh*t.

Dslatt · 11-05-2023 12:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582547#Comment_120582547

It always cracked me up how him and Breda O'Brien constantly complain about being "silenced" in their columns in the indo

aloyisious · 12-05-2023 10:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582618#Comment_120582618

Code for being forced to cede equality on civil rights and speech to those they were able to see and condemn as shameful.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-05-2023 11:23AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/05/13/abortion-review-finds-providers-are-being-shunned-and-service-considered-an-indulgence/

Dr Duffy’s research found that some health professionals still see provision of termination of pregnancy services as an “indulgence”. It also heard that some clinicians who do provide the service have been shunned by colleagues for doing so.

One medical professional told the researchers: “I certainly know of a colleague who, you know, doesn’t get saluted in the corridor now that she’s the main provider of the service, you know, by some people. She doesn’t care. But you would need to be that thick skinned is what I’m saying.”

Another medical professional told the review that women were going over the legal 12-week limit to access abortion because of public holidays and the difficulties posed by the three-day wait to access medication.

“Every year at Christmas we’ve had people who are ringing around desperately trying to get appointments before because there’s going to be no clinics the next week because there’s going to be so many bank holidays. So if they’re in that 10-12 weeks, we literally can’t get them an appointment. It has definitely happened, that I’ve spoken to someone on Christmas Eve saying, “I’m sorry, by the time the next clinic is available, you’re going to be over 12, there’s nothing I can do.’”

The provider said: “It is just a horrible thing to have to tell somebody that, ‘Yes, you’re actually legally eligible but you’re not going to get there.’”

An utter disgrace - both that some women are being denied their legal right, and that some in our medical profession not only regard polishing their halos as more important than patient care, but mistreat those in their profession who do not share such self-indulgent and archaic views.

Loafing Oaf · 20-05-2023 03:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506218#Comment_120506218

Holly seemingly taking Leo's 'reservations' at face value

https://www.thejournal.ie/holly-cairns-interview-abortion-6066231-May2023/

But also suggesting she understands the game he's playing

“I think it seems that that’s kind of maybe a strategic thing, because it’s kind of seen as a controversial issue,” Cairns said.

aloyisious · 25-05-2023 05:07PM

It seems that there is a vote in the Dail today to remove the 3-day waiting period for women seeking abortion services. A bill introduced by PBP to remove the waiting period and amend a number of other measures is to be debated there. Some Green Party TD's, Catherine Martin and Roderick O'Gorman and suspended party member Neasa Hourigan have expressed their support for the PBP bill but the Govt has put down an amendment to the bill that would delay dealing with it until next May. The official Green Party position is that the health committee be allowed time to consider the report and the Govt wants a 12 month delay for the same purpose before any action is taken on the 3 day waiting period. It looks like the official Govt policy is that it want women in need of abortions services to just suck it up and wait another year.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-05-2023 11:03PM

An opposition motion when the government already has a review in train - grandstanding which can go nowhere. That said I wish the 'official' process would pull their bloody finger out. A 12 month delay is ridiculous. 5 years on from the Repeal vote and we still have talk of a cabinet split, it's bollox, who is it they're trying to appease exactly?

BTW I have a shedload of "Repealed the 8th" stickers, if anyone wants some free of charge PM me

aloyisious · 26-05-2023 07:58AM

The Govt plan toward taking the next step to the "passed-by-the-people referendum" to another level of emancipation for women "we are going to take a pause in scrapping the 3-day waiting period for 12 months to consider; what...." Cowardice or how dense can we appear to be? I doubt they would see any need for a 12 month pause if it involved a pay rise for themselves.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-05-2023 11:58AM

Vote FF, suffer the consequences. When will people ever learn?

Hotblack Desiato · 01-06-2023 01:11AM

Now it's FG's turn.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/05/31/abortion-review-chair-rejects-fg-tds-claim-that-changes-would-spark-legal-challenge/

During Wednesday’s committee session, Fine Gael TD Bernard Durkan said he believed there would be a legal challenge against what was proposed by the review, carried out three years after the State’s abortion regime came into operation.

“It will be decided on the basis of whether or not this changes the legislation,” he said of any challenge. “So I would say caution, be careful. Let’s try to make sure that we make available the services that were envisaged in all such situations and circumstances before we start to change it.”

Mr Durkan said he was making the comment as a “politician who has to go before the electorate every so often”.

It's hard to comprehend the sheer thickness of this.

The legislation cannot change without an Oireachtas vote.

I don't think too many in Durkan's constituency will be impressed with this rubbish.

Ms O’Shea disagreed with his view, adding: “If you don’t do anything, I think it is only a question of time before there is a repeat of Mellet vs Ireland, and Whelan vs Ireland and the taoiseach standing up in the Dáil making an apology and paying a sum of money to people.”

Amanda Mellet and Siobhán Whelan were forced to travel the UK for abortions after a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality. The United Nations’ human rights committee found against Ireland in their cases because of the obligation to travel for healthcare services. The State was ordered to pay the women €30,000 each.

Ms O’Shea also told TDs that the chief medical officer had confirmed to her that there is “no medical reason” for the three-day waiting period before an abortion. She said there was also no legal reason for its existence.

Well, no legal reason other than that was what they wrote into the law, out of sheer political cowardice.

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2023/05/31/abortion-review-chairwoman-calls-for-courage-and-leadership-from-government/

Ms O’Shea will on Wednesday tell the Oireachtas health committee that “courage and leadership” are needed from the Coalition on the subject. The call comes after Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said he would be “reluctant and uncomfortable” to make significant changes to the current regime. Other Fine Gael Ministers are understood to have similar concerns.

Why doesn't he come out and tell us what these bloody "concerns" are then? I suspect because he knows there is nothing of any substance behind this posturing.

On conscientious objection, she will tell the committee that the law does not properly address the balance between the right to conscientiously object and the right to receive healthcare, “specifically to enable employers to make the requisite inquiries in the recruitment process to identify candidates who would be willing to perform abortion services”.

Funny isn't it how powerful medical consultants are allowed do what they like but e.g. teachers are forced to indoctrinate children into a religion regardless of their own beliefs. If conscientious objection was allowed in schools the whole system of religious patronage would very soon collapse. But no, any teacher who tries that on can quite legally be sacked.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-06-2023 04:23PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/oireachtas/2023/06/02/donnelly-says-pbp-abortion-bill-goes-miles-beyond-what-people-voted-for/

This is infuriating.

When asked why he had abstained from the vote, Mr Donnelly told Newstalk Breakfast on Friday that the Bill did not respect the vote of the people in the referendum on removing the Eighth Amendment in May 2018.

“I actually looked at the Bill in great detail. The Bill goes miles beyond what people voted for in repealing the Eighth. I made this point to Deputy Smith and to others who were supporting the Bill during the second stage debate.

“I campaigned very hard for Repeal, but the Bill does not respect that vote at all because it goes way beyond that vote.”

The whole point of Repeal was to take abortion out of the constitution once and for all and make it a matter for legislation. The people voted on the constitutional question. They did not vote on a piece of legislation. The whole point was to make it possible in future to amend legislation when it was found lacking not have it set in stone in the constitution.

He can feck off with his "not respecting the repeal vote" nonsense. Just because people voted to repeal at the same time that a particular Bill was in preparation does not mean that they regard that Bill as perfect and inerrant, and in perfect accordance with their wishes for evermore.

Exact same smell of BS off this as the "respect the Brexit vote" rubbish in the UK

Igotadose · 02-06-2023 05:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670826#Comment_120670826

yeah, so this minister's a wanker, no surprise there. But it seems the bill passed, the government's attempt to push things out a year failed, and the bill moves to 'committee stage.' Not sure what that means, but hopefully it's on its way to becoming law. Gets rid of the 3 day nonsense, decriminalizes abortion (barbaric that it's still criminalized in some cases,) new guidelines about conscientious objection and abortion in the case of FFA.

I think it's actually good news, despite the spin from the IT. Just minister's covering their backsides like always.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-06-2023 12:09AM

It'll be slowly strangled in the legislative process because it doesn't have explicit government support.

Loafing Oaf · 03-06-2023 12:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670826#Comment_120670826

But notice he's not ruling out any changes to the legislation

I suspect 'way' is doing a lot of work in this statemennt

“I campaigned very hard for Repeal, but the Bill does not respect that vote at all because it goes way beyond that vote.”

just like 'major' is doing here

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-leo-varadkar-expresses-reluctance-29777495

Donnelly is obviously being very careful not to 'prejudice the process' by coming out at this stage and saying he favours changes x,y and z to the law but the signs are his own inclinations are strongly pro-choice

https://www.thejournal.ie/stephen-donnelly-abortion-services-maternity-hospitals-6048795-Apr2023/

I suspect when all is said and done the liberalisation of legislation we get may not be that far behind what Brid Smith is pushing for...

Hotblack Desiato · 03-06-2023 01:52AM

I fear you are being far too optimistic. Varadkar and Donnelly are needlessly parroting anti-choice tropes. Are they too thick to realise that that will lose them far more votes than they could hope to gain?

Donnelly, strongly pro-choice, really? with the utter crap he's coming out with?

Loafing Oaf · 03-06-2023 10:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672420#Comment_120672420

Yes because IMO that stuff is explained by his obsession with not subverting the legislative process.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/donnelly-says-three-day-wait-understood-by-abortion-referendum-voters-1467879.html

Asked if the period of reflection should be left in place, Mr Donnelly said while he had his own personal view he did not want to “unduly influence” the committee.

Whereas re operational matters, where he does feel free to speak, he doesn't mince his words

https://www.thejournal.ie/stephen-donnelly-abortion-services-maternity-hospitals-6048795-Apr2023/

HEALTH MINISTER STEPHEN Donnelly has said it is “totally and utterly unacceptable” that abortion services are not being provided at all Irish maternity hospitals.

I mean he could have made that point without such vehemence if he didn't have a strong conviction about it...

Hotblack Desiato · 03-06-2023 12:29PM

But that comment is about the implementation of the existing law not possible changes. He's allowed the current situation to go on for far too long.

aloyisious · 12-06-2023 08:30PM

Bit of a shocker this. In England, Scotland and Wales women only have an exemption from prosecution in certain cases from the UK law law banning abortions where-as in N/I they have the right to have an abortion beyond the restraint limit placed on them in mainland Britain. https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/woman-who-took-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit-is-jailed-for-28-months/ar-AA1crLDm?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0f19370c1fc341ba8d284c8db00dc730&ei=14

Hotblack Desiato · 12-06-2023 11:06PM

Was just about to post that. Guardian's report:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit

It's pretty bizarre that the 1861 Offences Against The Person Act (Which we heard so much about during the repeal campaign here) is still in force in E/S/W except for cases which fall within the 1967 Abortion Act. This is even more bizarre since abortion was decriminalised in NI.

I expect and hope that the legislative review here will recommend decriminalisation. Whether the government would be willing to implement that is another question but if they won't, SF will... there is only a downside for the present government parties here, there is no upside in pandering to anti-choicers.

aloyisious · 13-06-2023 11:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120707433#Comment_120707433

It seems the judge said that had the woman pleaded guilty in the first place to the charge, she would have got a suspended sentence and not one of imprisonment. That statement by the judge might call into doubt the reasoning for the sentence he gave the woman: I am sending you to prison because you did not plead guilty to the charge at the earliest opportunity, you could have got a suspended custodial sentence instead.

He accepted the remorse and guilt the woman felt about her actions, then added his comment about the prison sentence he gave her. His remark about the letter from the various Royal Medical Colleges being impertinent may add weight to a change in sentence practice as the judge said there was no sentencing guidelines for the offence but the law allowed for a life sentence. He also made reference to a sentence given to another woman of eight [8] years in reference to a separate offence.

ohnonotgmail · 13-06-2023 11:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708829#Comment_120708829

It is pretty standard to give a reduced sentence to people who plead guilty.

aloyisious · 13-06-2023 12:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708864#Comment_120708864

She changed her plea from an original not guilty plea to a guilty plea during the proceedings. The judge made it clear that the sentence would have been a suspended custodial sentence had she pleaded guilty earlier in the proceedings so the plea change may have been late in the proceedings when the judgement outcome was plainer to her. However the report did not make that salient point clear so: Moses supposes...

ohnonotgmail · 13-06-2023 12:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708943#Comment_120708943

I don't understand what moses supposes means. The judge was clear that an early guilty plea would have resulted in a suspended sentence. This is not out of the ordinary.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-06-2023 02:24PM

So her kids have their mother taken away from them, and may well end up in care.

Well done judge *slow clap* 🙄

end of the road · 13-06-2023 05:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709710#Comment_120709710

being a woman or being a single parent does not excuse one from breaching the law or the consequences of doing so.

abortion is not such a special case either that those who breach the rules should be exempt from consequences of their breach.

there are term limits for a reason, there are criminal sanctions to insure those who might think about breaching the rules don't do so.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-06-2023 07:24PM

From court reports the woman was clearly very distressed, a suspended sentence would have been appropriate. She's hardly going to reoffend. It seems to be a case of the judge being miffed (about late guilty plea) as much as anything. Did he or she properly consider the consequences for the kids of a needless custodial sentence?

ohnonotgmail · 13-06-2023 07:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711195#Comment_120711195

She was very badly advised. She was always going to found guilty.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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