Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439442#Comment_119439442

The question I asked you was if the doctor should remain on in the job when he/she has conscientious objections to providing abortion services the job requires him/her to perform or leave and give the job to another doctor who doesn't have the same objections to providing abortion services. No flaws: Go or stay?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439068#Comment_119439068

How many times do I have to keep saying it?

Half of them are doing precisely that.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439080#Comment_119439080

Where did I say that? 🙄

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439070#Comment_119439070

For not doing their jobs and failing their patients?

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440556#Comment_119440556

Albeit not for the patient, There's a world of difference between refusing to and not being able to provide a service. The reasons behind not being able to provide a service are nuanced but important if you want to find a solution. You've a simplistic view of Healthcare challenges and even more simplistic view of how to solve them.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440558#Comment_119440558

That's the ultimate outcome of what you're saying. As I say, just because you think something is simple doesn't make it so.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440876#Comment_119440876

So, how long do we wait? 4 years+ since the referendum and counting. 5 years? 10? 30? 50?

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440560#Comment_119440560

They don't need to resign.

If you want then to resign, great, by you won't have the solution you think you'll have. What you will have is a wider and deeper healthcare challenge and an increased number of patients failed.

Best of luck with that.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440888#Comment_119440888

Wait for what?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440908#Comment_119440908

Provision of abortion services at every hospital?

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440918#Comment_119440918

Until the HSE completes its recruitment processes is the main factor I would say. Think the Minister recently said there's 4 or 5 more hospitals to complete recruitment by March 2023

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440962#Comment_119440962

Pardon me for thinking this but it appears that you are agreeable with Obstetricians being employed by the HSE in hospitals where they refuse to provide the abortion services their female patients want. You are clearly aware there limits on the numbers of obstetricians per hospital here in Ireland, that there is not an excess of them in hospitals waiting to provide abortion services when the female patients need them and that obstetricians who refuse to to provide abortion services while staying on the medical staff numbers in hospitals are deliberately preventing the employ of other obstetricians who will be of assistance to female patients. Hopefully your post above indicates you might have had a change of opinion and agree with the Minister and the HSE replacing conscientious obstetricians with obstetricians more able to be relied on by their patients.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441725#Comment_119441725

I think better to call those obstetricians that refuse to provide treatment to patients unconscious rather than conscientious. Maybe unconscionable, but they're letting their mythology get in the way of other people's reality. You raise a good point, they're blocking good obstetricians from getting jobs, As I guess the good obstetricians are younger, they're likely to just leave Ireland for better climes, leaving the fossils in place.

And as I pointed out above, the "Doctor" that killed Savita is still employed by the HSE.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441725#Comment_119441725

I never held or stated any opinion on that at all.

As I expected and as is clear in your posts you have inability to see past your own prejudices. You'll note, if you actually bothered to look closely enough that I haven't expressed any personal opinion on CO.

It is neither here nor there whether I'm agreeable or not to doctors being able to conscientiously object. My point is, consistently, that they can. The law in Ireland and the codes of ethics/professional conduct, broadly internationally.

There's no evidence that current obstetricians being employed are preventing the recruitment of new ones. As i mentioned earlier the HSE is right in the middle of a recruitment campaign. Numbers or money are not the issue - fundamental challenges in recruiting staff is the issue - again, as I've said ad nauseam. And finally as I've also already said, even if it was possible (it isn't) to sack obstetricians that conscientiously object, you haven't solved the problem but created a whole new set of problems instead. Fundamentally your entire input is flawed and there's a strong sense of cutting off your nose to spite your face in your view points.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441746#Comment_119441746

If you could link to some evidence to demonstrare that consultant obstetricians are leaving Ireland because they can't get jobs that'd be great... I see no evidence of that. HSE is literally recruiting at the moment...

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441964#Comment_119441964

Its a pity you keep mentioning sacking obstetricians when the alternative is not renewing existing contracts, thus enabling the HSE to agree new contracts with new obstetricians. That would eliminate the whole new set of problem you seem to imagine would exist. As you have posted, It's perfectly agreeable and acceptable for a person to have conscientious objections to practice/s they do not agree with or wish to comply with. It's not agreeable for obstetricians to use that objection as a means to deliberately prevent females from obtaining the medical services lawfully available in hospitals here. There is a difference there. Thinking outside the box by the C/O obstetricians might solve the problem caused by them for female patients requiring abortion services here. I regret the personal comment level you have put into your posts again and again to play the player. I will not respond in kind.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442146#Comment_119442146

Gloss over the recruitment challenges why don't you.

Maybe you should pursue the 90% of GPs who haven't signed up to provide a service as well while you're at it - what could go wrong.

Hotblack Desiato

Safe access zones should increase the number of GPs willing to sign up. We've been saying this for years and there's no reason the legislation needed to take this long.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444229#Comment_119444229

RCC didn't want them and their Daíl operatives delayed it.

robindch

If these people are really so concerned about what "God's will" supposedly is, how do they know that practising medicine at all is in accordance with it? Shouldn't they be performing an exorcism or saying another mass or something? As usual, it's only sex and women's reproductive issues in particular that they have problems with...

Couldn't be bothered producing evidence, but history is littered with medical procedures which ran into problems with contemporary religious workers who used the "god's will" excuse to rail against progress. To say nothing of all those good religious people who deny the outcome of God's Plan by wearing glasses, taking viagra, taking antibiotics, using a walking stick etc.

Main cause seems to be the inevitable evolution of systems of social control which favour birth to socially-controlled parents over parents who take steps to limit the number of children they have.

aloyisious

It'd be nice to read this as a sign of the times when the Bishop of Elphin has said neither he as a bishop nor any member of the catholic faithful have “any business in classifying any group of people as unworthy” of receiving communion. In his homily in Knock on Sunday, Bishop Kevin Doran said he would “seriously question” the “cancelling” of an invitation to communion. “When the Eucharist is thought of as a prize, there seem to be winners and losers; there are some who quite comfortably think of themselves as worthy, while judging others to be unworthy,” he acknowledged.

His stance would appear to be at odds with a number of US bishops who have targeted pro-choice catholic politicians like President Joe Biden and US House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi. In May Ms Pelosi was barred from receiving communion in her home diocese of San Francisco by Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone. However, a month later she received communion at a papal Mass while in Rome to meet Pope Francis. The Pontiff has said he has never denied the Eucharist to anyone.

I think I'll wait for non-denial to be the standard practice of all to all as JC would seem to have wanted it, no dogged refusal based on the presumed history of others. Source of story: Independent.ie, 48 minutes ago.

ohnonotgmail

Expect the bould kevin to get a severe kicking and start rowing backwards faster than those lads in the olympics

robindch

I wonder what kind of a welcome Bishop Kevin would get in Louisiana where the state's Attorney General, a republican, requested the state's finance authorities to block funding for flood relief infrastructure in New Orleans, because New Orleans encouraged police to avoid enforcing the state's ban on abortion. The state's finance authorities complied and flood relief remains unfunded.

https://www.agjefflandry.com/Files/Article/13053/Documents/2022.07.19-LtrtoStateBondCommittee.pdf

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/20/us/louisiana-delay-flood-funding-city-abortion-stance/index.html

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514416#Comment_119514416

Probably not good. The state Governor is a Democrat, John Bel Edwards, since Jan 11, 2016 but he's staunchly anti-abortion to the point when the family doctor told him and his wife she was pregnant with a spina-bifida foetus and recommended she have an abortion, they decided [according to a 30 second TV anti-abortion Ad highlighting their anti-abortion views] `I was devastated,` Donna Edwards says. `But John Bel never flinched. He just said, 'No. No, we're going to love this baby no matter what.'` The commercial shows their grown-up daughter with her fiancee as Donna Edwards says, `Samantha's getting married next spring and she's living proof that John Bel Edwards lives his values every day.` Edwards said the ad was his daughter's idea `to make sure people understood where we are on that issue as it relates to our Catholic Christian faith, being pro-life.` It also draws distinctions from the national Democratic Party, as Edwards positions himself as the kind of moderate Democrat that Louisiana used to regularly elect to statewide office. He, on June 21, 2022, signed sweeping legislation Tuesday that would criminalize abortion in Louisiana and ban the procedure in nearly all circumstances from the moment of implantation if Roe v. Wade is overturned. The legislation does not include exceptions for rape and incest.

Hotblack Desiato

"We made a choice. Now we want to force everyone in the position we were in to make the same choice we did."

He, on June 21, 2022, signed sweeping legislation Tuesday that would criminalize abortion in Louisiana and ban the procedure in nearly all circumstances from the moment of implantation if Roe v. Wade is overturned. The legislation does not include exceptions for rape and incest.

And they call him a "moderate"? 🙄

Igotadose

Margaret Sanger is a 'bete noir' for the forced-birth movement due to her 'theories' about eugenics, which were crap.

However, her 'start' came from being one of the first in the western world to help provide contraception to poor women. This is something that the criminal enterprise known as the RCC is still against and would love to ban anywhere they hold sway, like in the US via the RCC-dominated Supreme Court.

Here are some excerpts of letters written to Sanger from women imploring her for help avoiding getting pregnant. She apparently received over 250,000 of them in her lifetime.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5083/

Hotblack Desiato

Turns out Mr. T might not be quite so anti-abortion as he was making out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63125238

For instance, in his first meeting with then UK Prime Minister Theresa May, Mr Trump spoke about abortion, saying "some people are pro-life, some people are pro-choice. Imagine if some animals with tattoos raped your daughter and she got pregnant?"

Meanwhile...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63125240

Mr Walker has also made the issue central to his campaign, saying he believes abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape or incest.

But according to The Daily Beast, he encouraged his then girlfriend to have the procedure and later sent her a cheque and a get well card.

The woman, whom the media outlet does not name due to privacy concerns, said she became pregnant while dating Mr Walker over a decade ago.

She told the outlet that she came forward because "I just can't deal with the hypocrisy anymore. We all deserve better".

On Twitter, Mr Walker said: "I deny this in the strongest terms possible" and vowed to file a lawsuit against the media outlet.

In a statement, National Republican Senatorial Committee spokesperson Chris Hartline called the report "innuendo and lies."

The Daily Beast has said it stands behind its reporting.

Republicans had hoped that Mr Walker's celebrity would boost their chances in the midterms. He has taken conservative stances on most social issues, and will rely in part on Evangelical voters to elect him to the Senate.

But the Walker campaign has weathered a series of personal controversies stemming from the candidate's past behaviour.

Two women have accused Mr Walker of domestic abuse over the years. His ex-wife, Cindy Grossman, sought a protective order against him in 2005 after Mr Walker made violent threats, the Associated Press reported.

He also faced reports about three children, from different mothers, that he had not publicly acknowledged during the campaign. He later confirmed they were his, saying he had "never denied" their existence.

Ah, good old fashioned Christian values, eh!

On Monday night, one of his children unleashed a torrent of criticism at Mr Walker, claiming that the candidate had abandoned and threatened him and his mother.

"Don't lie on the lives you've destroyed and act like you're some moral family man," Christian Walker said.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704873#Comment_119704873

That son originally endorsed his Pop but more recently is loudly against him. Son is a Conservative influencer who loudly denies he's gay but says he's interested in men.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/1019/1330136-abortion-services-health-committee/

An official at the Department of Health has said that anti-abortion protests outside termination of pregnancy services are having a "chill effect" on medical practitioners.

Assistant Secretary at the Department of Health Muiris O'Connor told the Oireachtas Committee on Health that "fear of protest is harming the roll-out of services and just an eighth of GPs are providing abortion services".

A bill is currently being drafted to provide safe access zones at clinics and is expected to be published by the end of the year.

Igotadose

The Dail, of course, at best is slow-walking any abortion legislation review afaik. But, some protestors are out reminding them we've not forgotten.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1029/1332157-abortion/