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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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  • 04-03-2019 3:09pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    ...continuing on from previous threads on abortion (abortion part 1, part 2 and part 3).


«13456796

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Is there any health condition in either the mother or the child that can only be fixed by a 3rd trimester abortion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Is there any health condition in either the mother or the child that can only be fixed by a 3rd trimester abortion?

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/06/health/late-term-abortion-explainer/index.html
    Can you explain why abortions happen later in a pregnancy?

    Conti: There are many reasons why women may need to access abortion later in pregnancy, including maternal health endangerment, diagnosis of fetal abnormalities or restrictive laws delaying earlier access to abortion care. Those exceptionally rare cases that happen after 24 weeks are often because a fetus has a condition that cannot be treated and will never be able to survive -- regardless of the gestational age or trimester.
    It's this exact reason that it's nonsensical to legislate these cases: Nobody arrives at the decision to have an abortion after 24 weeks carelessly. Rather, it's the rare case of rapidly decompensating maternal heart disease or a delayed diagnosis of anencephaly, where the fetus forms without a complete brain or skull, that bring people to these decisions.

    Levy: Abortions later in pregnancy typically occur because of two general indications: lethal fetal anomalies or threats to the health of the mother. Some fetal development problems or genetic anomalies do not show up or develop until later in pregnancy. Some examples might include anencephaly (described above) or limb-body wall complex, when the organs develop outside of the body cavity. With conditions like these, the fetus cannot survive out of the uterus.

    Likewise, when conditions progress or appear that severely compromise a woman's health or life, abortion may be the safest, medically indicated procedure. These conditions can also reduce the possibility of fetal survival. They might include premature rupture of membranes (where the fluid surrounding the fetus is lost before labor), uterine infection, preeclampsia, placental abruption and placenta accreta. Women under these circumstances may have extensive blood loss or septic shock that can be fatal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Quote from the article:
    The new law allows non-doctors to perform the procedure and allows for abortions up to the point of birth if the life or health of the mother is deemed at risk or the baby is not viable.

    I see no problem with this.
    I believe in the cases where the mother is deemed to be at risk, the baby is simply delivered, not "killed before delivery".
    Who on earth would carry a baby to almost full term, have an unexpected urgent health complication, and allow a doctor to kill their child without ever giving it a chance to live? I don't buy it, sorry.
    It doesn't happen. If its urgent, there wouldn't be time to "kill" the baby first anyway, a c-section would be priority to ensure the quickest birth possible.

    In cases of Anencephaly, it can sometimes to be kinder to let the baby pass over en utero. Again, not a decision any parent of a much wanted child would take lightly and not something to be judged.

    Not shocked to see tragic circumstances continue to be exploited, though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Is there any health condition in either the mother or the child that can only be fixed by a 3rd trimester abortion?
    splinter65 wrote: »

    Not sure what your issue is, you ask an obviously baiting question and then dump a link that appears to answer your own question.

    But you don't offer an opinion or statement on the matter, why is that?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Is there any health condition in either the mother or the child that can only be fixed by a 3rd trimester abortion?

    I think you misunderstand medical jargon.

    There ARE medical conditions that can only be fixed by ending a pregnancy, however, if the fetus is viable then that end can be brought about by an early birth rather than an abortion.

    Pre-eclampsia is one of those conditions that is cured by ending a pregnancy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    splinter65 wrote: »

    For anyone curious about New York's new law
    Under the Reproductive Health Act, non-doctors are now allowed to conduct abortions and the procedure could be done until the mother's due date if the woman's health is endangered or if the fetus is not viable. The previous law only allowed abortions after 24 weeks of pregnancy if a woman's life was at risk.

    It also removes abortion from the Criminal Code and makes it a public health issue.

    I'll admit the non-doctors part threw me but I assume that means it'll be done by mid-wifes or other suitable trained professional.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    ....... wrote: »
    I think you misunderstand medical jargon.

    There ARE medical conditions that can only be fixed by ending a pregnancy, however, if the fetus is viable then that end can be brought about by an early birth rather than an abortion.

    Pre-eclampsia is one of those conditions that is cured by ending a pregnancy.

    Yet PP and others will have you believe that upon getting a late term diagnosis of pre-eclampsia, rather than just deliver the baby prematurely and give it special care, the woman will insist on the baby being removed via dismemberment (or some other emotionally charged language) and thrown in a bin.

    Such a massive insult to not only women, but humanity in general.
    As if any woman would consent to that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »

    According to Politifact, Fox is the place to go for fake news

    At Fox and Fox News, 10 percent of the claims we’ve rated have been True, 11 percent Mostly True, 18 percent Half True, 21 percent Mostly False, 31 percent False and nine percent Pants on Fire.

    That means about 60 percent of the claims we’ve checked have been rated Mostly False or worse. Here’s how it breaks down (as of Jan. 27, 2015):


    yoQ1iMgJHZbrC_n8a2xTUhRZ9OWaiAEMPLewGATLhPUGbt1VY3-Y5vOjYS-69cfl_5YHg-EzgdWEEgLSQUMrZle1t4zH-7mV-r9a4M1lsGKJdejuGROYOP88HtXr9ksY4Q

    And as for CNN? It has the best record among the cable networks, as 80 percent of of the claims we’ve rated are Half True or better.

    jeXVGfUBTOtWGC0FmppOrkD8mqUNFk9QKF3lUjcBynnOGJOCZXQ7Gz0t2Qk866NwFNF-crrRlO8V0sAbyoSWwCYA475NQLW2VnJM1_1uQNkMDiR6_KQE1SjnyXF5_ekCoQ

    According to Business Insider, Fox News and Breitbart tie for least trustworthy news source


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Is there any health condition in either the mother or the child that can only be fixed by a 3rd trimester abortion?

    Given your next post, this "question" is disingenuous in the extreme.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Is there any health condition in either the mother or the child that can only be fixed by a 3rd trimester abortion?
    splinter65 wrote: »


    I usually say that there are no stupid questions but I guess I was wrong. This seems to be an example of what RationalWiki describes as JAQing off.


    The answer to your question is, yes, there are health conditions which necessitate abortion in the 3rd trimester, several in fact. However, the simplistic nature of your question belies the complex reality of the situation.

    First, 3rd trimester abortions, in the jursidictions where they are performed, only represent tiny numbers of cases. For example:
    • England and Wales - 0.1% over 24 weeks
    • Scotland - 1.6% over 18 weeks
    • Norway - 0.2% over 21 weeks
    • Sweden - 0.8% over 18 weeks
    • USA - 1.4% over 21 weeks (based only on states which report gestational age)
    • Canada - 2% over 21 weeks
    • Australia - 2% over 20 weeks (South Australia only)


    Second, to cut to the heart of your question, abortions performed in the third trimester are performed for serious medical conditions. For example, in 2017, there were 237 abortions performed in the UK at Week 24 or over. Among these 237 there were:
    • 4 for anencephaly
    • 7 for spina bifida
    • 31 for various malformations of the brain (arhinencephaly, septo-optic dysplasia etc.)
    • 38 for miscellanious malformations (diastematomyelia, Arnold-Chiari syndrome, spinal cord displasia etc.)
    • 29 for congenital malformations of the cardiovascular system (Taussig-Bing syndrome, Ebstein's anomaly, dextrocardia etc.)
    • 10 for congenital malformations of the urinary system (epispadias, ectopic kidney, renal dysplasia etc.)
    • 20 for congenital malformations of the musculoskeletal system (plagiocephaly, pes cavus, Treacher-Collins syndrome etc.)
    • 9 for maternal health factors which affected the foetus (prolapsed cord, chorioamnionitis, placenta previa etc.)

    You can read the full statistics here. The breakdown of third trimester abortions is presented in Table 9a. To make sense of it you will need the ICD-10 codes which you can find here.


    Finally, just two questions. First, what relevance does your question and its associated news story have to the Irish situation. The time limit for elective abortions here is 12 weeks. Second, even in jurisdictions where elective abortions are allowed for much longer, the overwhelming majority are performed before 12 weeks (i.e. greater than 90%). So why would a woman choose to wait six or months for an abortion if it wasn't prompted by a serious medical condition?


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Why is someone who isn't Irish as you have said worried about how we have legislated?


  • Registered Users Posts: 82,007 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    robindch wrote: »
    ...continuing on from previous threads on abortion (abortion part 1, part 2 and part 3).

    Side note, I cringe that you've all dutifully modded all of this neverending discussion and I tip my hat to all of you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,565 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    According to a Irish Pro-choice group on F/book, its been reported by yesterday's edition of the Sunday Times that two independent TD's, Carole Nolan (lately of SF) and Mattie McGrath went on a crowdfunded St Paddy's weekend visit to Washington to meet U.S politicians courtesy of an Irish pro-life group, Family & Life, Mountjoy Square, Dublin.

    According to the report, the visit was to be funded by voluntary contributions of between €35 and €600 to prevent "pro-abortion" TD's and Senators having the floor (presumably in the US political arena) to themselves. The report also claimed that Mattie and Carole began their visit on Wednesday last which might explain how the report was able to be published on Paddy's Day yesterday (Sunday).

    This is not the first visit to the U.S by Mattie McGrath funded by Family & Life as he was there last year courtesy of them as well. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/anti-abortion-group-paid-for-mattie-mcgrath-to-visit-us-1.3392423

    What may need to be ascertained in the future is if both TD's were actually on officially reported non-personally funded/non-expenses-claimed-for visits to the US, something on the lines of funded-by-others trips for specific representative purposes and not private holiday visits to the U.S. I assume that both TD's will follow the guidelines and Oireachtas rules on non-personally funded trips/visits to foreign countries and declare them to the required state bodies.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Is it even worth noting anything from the dumpster fire which is the White House these days? Dunno. Here's one from a couple of days ago in which #45 claimed that babies born in Virginia are executed after birth.

    https://twitter.com/TomthunkitsMind/status/1113249321246515201

    Plus, #45 says his father was German, despite being born in the Bronx:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5hNFgJvUQ

    etc, etc.


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    robindch wrote: »
    Is it even worth noting anything from the dumpster fire which is the White House these days? Dunno. Here's one from a couple of days ago in which #45 claimed that babies born in Virginia are executed after birth.

    https://twitter.com/TomthunkitsMind/status/1113249321246515201

    Plus, #45 says his father was German, despite being born in the Bronx:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5hNFgJvUQ

    etc, etc.

    I'd basically ignore anything that lying overgrown umpa lumpa tool says in most cases like this. He's one of those you know their lying because their lips are moving.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Unless he's declaring global thermonuclear war, I'd rather not hear a single thing about that c*nt until his funeral

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,118 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Cool. South Korea overturns it's 70+ year old abortion ban:
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/south-korea-abortion-ban_n_5caf32d6e4b09a1eabf87ac8


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    “Embryos completely depend on the mother’s body for their survival and development, so it cannot be concluded that they are separate, independent living beings entitled to the right to life,” the court said in a statement announcing the ruling

    Only took us 35 years to figure that out...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://twitter.com/freesafelegal/status/1119503469021294592
    Join us for our Safe Access Zones - A Panel Discussion event on Tuesday, May 7th. We will be discussing the urgent need for legislation and what we can do to help achieve safe access zones for people accessing abortion care.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Varadkar promised exclusion zones and he’s now realized that there’s no such thing. But that hasn’t stopped him from today promising to prevent “frightening” groups from marching/parading/massing.
    People can walk along a public street handing out leaflets if they want to and people can get together and dress up however they like and parade along a public street if they want.
    Any suggestion otherwise is a threat to all our freedoms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Varadkar promised exclusion zones and he’s now realized that there’s no such thing. But that hasn’t stopped him from today promising to prevent “frightening” groups from marching/parading/massing.
    People can walk along a public street handing out leaflets if they want to and people can get together and dress up however they like and parade along a public street if they want.
    Any suggestion otherwise is a threat to all our freedoms.

    Then people (women) should be able to have full bodily autonomy, if they want.

    As any suggestion otherwise is a threat to their freedom, no?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Varadkar promised exclusion zones and he’s now realized that there’s no such thing. But that hasn’t stopped him from today promising to prevent “frightening” groups from marching/parading/massing.
    People can walk along a public street handing out leaflets if they want to and people can get together and dress up however they like and parade along a public street if they want.
    Any suggestion otherwise is a threat to all our freedoms.

    We can point out your right comes with am obligation to respect other vulnerable people and that hospitals and medical centres should, like other locations, be subject to special handling.

    In other words you can parade along O'Connell Street grand. Outside the Rotunda and Holles Street, not grand. As it is already obvious that some anti-abortion activists lack the ability to understand that their rights do not extend to harassing patients, it appears a lesson might be required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,000 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Calina wrote: »
    We can point out your right comes with am obligation to respect other vulnerable people and that hospitals and medical centres should, like other locations, be subject to special handling.

    already taken care of via existing laws which work perfectly in dealing with issues around protests. no special handling required as the existing laws work.
    Calina wrote: »
    In other words you can parade along O'Connell Street grand. Outside the Rotunda and Holles Street, not grand. As it is already obvious that some anti-abortion activists lack the ability to understand that their rights do not extend to harassing patients, it appears a lesson might be required.

    if the protests are happening on a public footpath outside the hospital then they are on the public street and are legitimate even if we may not specifically agree with an individual protest. no protest bann or safe access zone will change that or stop protests if they were to happen. only 1 small protest happened a while back with a low turnout and a short duration so the likely hood of protests seems to be nill anyway.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Then people (women) should be able to have full bodily autonomy, if they want.

    As any suggestion otherwise is a threat to their freedom, no?

    Well where does your bodily autonomy begin or end and my right to hand out leaflets or pray quietly on the street begin or end?
    That’s the big issue isn’t it? Why do your rights trump my rights? Because they don’t.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Calina wrote: »
    We can point out your right comes with am obligation to respect other vulnerable people and that hospitals and medical centres should, like other locations, be subject to special handling.

    In other words you can parade along O'Connell Street grand. Outside the Rotunda and Holles Street, not grand. As it is already obvious that some anti-abortion activists lack the ability to understand that their rights do not extend to harassing patients, it appears a lesson might be required.

    But the roto and holles street and the coombe are public buildings on a public street. The Taoiseach has discovered very quickly that you simply cannot prevent peaceful public assembly. What kind of a “lesson” are you threatening now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Well where does your bodily autonomy begin or end and my right to hand out leaflets or pray quietly on the street begin or end?
    That’s the big issue isn’t it? Why do your rights trump my rights? Because they don’t.

    Ah come on. The intention of the "protesters" is to intimidate. If you want to have your prayer service and hand out anti abortion leaflets then take it to an appropriate place. Doing it outside the office of a doctor you know provides such services is an obvious ploy to get to service users and providers. It's pathetic really that these people can't use their time more productively


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Ah come on. The intention of the "protesters" is to intimidate. If you want to have your prayer service and hand out anti abortion leaflets then take it to an appropriate place. Doing it outside the office of a doctor you know provides such services is an obvious ploy to get to service users and providers. It's pathetic really that these people can't use their time more productively

    It’s always very alarming for me when I encounter views which demonstrate to me that some people like you, lucky enough to be living in a democracy, don’t seem to understand what democracy involves.
    Public places are public places. They’re not just public places only for other people who agree with you. I’m not going to get into a back and forth with you because Varadkar has already conceded that it’s turned out that here in our democracy nobody gets to tell anyone else where they can and cannot stand in a public space. Thank God.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It’s always very alarming for me when I encounter views which demonstrate to me that some people like you, lucky enough to be living in a democracy, don’t seem to understand what democracy involves.
    Public places are public places. They’re not just public places only for other people who agree with you. I’m not going to get into a back and forth with you because Varadkar has already conceded that it’s turned out that here in our democracy nobody gets to tell anyone else where they can and cannot stand in a public space. Thank God.

    There is a personal responsibility to use cop on. For example, I'm free to have a cigarette on the street outside a stop smoking clinic as it's users are filing out, I'm free to parade my pregnancy at an ivf clinic, my lottery win at a soup kitchen queue but that would make me a bit of a dick to do any of the above.

    Yes people are free to do a protest if they wish and tell themselves it's fine if such actions frighten or alarm anyone because democracy but it shows them up for the petty idiots they are.


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  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It’s always very alarming for me when I encounter views which demonstrate to me that some people like you, lucky enough to be living in a democracy, don’t seem to understand what democracy involves.
    Public places are public places. They’re not just public places only for other people who agree with you. I’m not going to get into a back and forth with you because Varadkar has already conceded that it’s turned out that here in our democracy nobody gets to tell anyone else where they can and cannot stand in a public space. Thank God.

    Strange how you weren't happy with the democratic result that got rid of the 8th and were happy to use lies to try and undermine the democratic process during the campaign.

    As soon as there is trouble at these protests and going by the past and what occurred in the UK, there will be, they will be reviewed and introduced.


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