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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,970 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Process chugging along

    The report will cause headaches for the Government with Taoiseach Leo Varadkar saying earlier this year he would be uncomfortable making changes.

    No, he said he would be uncomfortable to make 'major' changes, and I have a sneaking decision he will decide the changes recommended by this committee do not qualify as 'major'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    As long as the necessary changes are made I couldn't give a fiddler's how "comfortable" or otherwise Varadkar and co. are.

    The 12 week limit isn't nearly enough but nothing in that article about that and scaredy cat politicians will kick for touch.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    As I recall, there's some question on the 'counting' of the 12 weeks. Apparently Ireland's is actually less than 12 weeks. I remember some of the pro-choice campaigners pointing that out, too. Determining when the pregnancy starts is not straightforward and days matter.

    I'm guardedly optimistic about this, but with the pernicious, pervasive influence of the RCC in Irish government I'm wary of 'slow it down' shenanigans by their actors in government. If Ireland ditches the awful '3 day cooling off,' will there be any more EU governments that require it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,970 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    The 12 week limit isn't nearly enough


    Is this a widely held position? Seems a gestational limit of in and around 12 weeks for 'choice' abortions is standard across the developed world, even in the ultra-liberal Scandinavian countries

    My impression is the big pressure for change, and where the debate is likely to focus, is over the definition of 'fatal foetal abnormality'...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Yes the 12 weeks (and pregnancy generally) is counted from the last menstrual period, ovulation usually occurs two weeks later.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    That link requires a login.

    12 weeks for any reason is common enough, but what can happen after 12 weeks varies a lot.

    We continue to rely on the "safety valve" of the UK. If it was up to me then non-fatal foetal abnormalities would be allowed (which would solve the "is it fatal enough" problem), but the usual suspects who want more severely disabled babies to be born would be up in arms. Their efforts are meaningless anyway as couples affected just go to the UK, the expense, difficulty and additional trauma involved is something they don't care a whit about.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Implementation leaving a lot to be desired. Some anecdotes on accessing services today. "I'd 100% take the boat"

    (https://archive.is/VZsBI)



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Fwiw a lot of info on abortion, which might have helped some of the women in that article can be found at reddit.com/r/abortion



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Just not acceptable that GPs who don't provide the service are refusing to refer.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭beeker1


    As the parent of a child with Down Syndrome , the love she gives and the live she leads is her own ! I read an article from a Swedish site and how they'd triumphed the infliction of Down Syndrome ! Louise is my baby , I wouldn't change her for the world ❤️ , the scandis just abort the baby , if there's only a very small percentage ! I'm just afraid that abortion will become something that completely dehumanised the child growing in what should be the safest place !!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Conceiving a child and raising it to birth are choices. Fortunately, we have them in Ireland. Likewise everywhere else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Some will continue to look down their noses at those who make choices other than they hypothetically would have made, they're just getting ever so slighly more subtle about it but it still stinks of smug moral hypocrisy

    I say hypothetically because nobody knows the full circumstances surrounding anyone else's decision and really has no right to judge.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    The bible teaches many good things and you are entitled to your opinion but religion should never be allowed to dictate the laws of society, its not fair on the people who are not practicing Christians.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,536 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    In matters related to the referendum on the 8th amendment on the 25 May 208 and a statement alleged to have been made by Gemma O'Doherty about Kitty Holland on O'Doherty's website when she was interviewed by John Waters, Hollands SC [Shane English] read out a statement in open court today which he said was made online by O'Doherty about acts of murder O'Doherty alleged were committed by Holland against two of Hollands own children.

    Holland is suing Waters for defamation in relation to the allegations made against her by O'Doherty. Today's hearing was to set dates for the defamation hearing which is now to take place over four [4] days at the end of April next. Waters, who describes himself as an unemployed journalist, pro-life and an opponent of abortion, has entered a full defence in which he denies having published the words complained of and claims that at all times he was exercising his right to free speech. He claims he was not aware that an address by him to the November 2017 annual party conference of Renua Ireland was being recorded and broadcast on line.

    Mention was also made by Mr English during todays hearing of allegations on the same website referencing the Judge hearing todays case and two of the judges brothers. Judge O’Connor advised Mr Waters’ barrister to get instructions from his client in relation to the very serious allegations in relation to the court.

    The report on today's court hearing concerning the journalists is in todays Irish Independent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    South America? No, Britain.

    An unprecedented number of women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy, the BBC has been told.

    Abortion provider MSI says it knows of up to 60 criminal inquiries in England and Wales since 2018, compared with almost zero before.

    Some investigations followed natural pregnancy loss, File on 4 found.

    Pregnancy loss is investigated only if credible evidence suggests a crime, the National Police Chiefs' Council says.

    File on 4 has spoken to women who say that they have been "traumatised" and left feeling "suicidal" following criminal investigations lasting years.

    Speaking for the first time, one woman described how she had been placed under investigation after giving birth prematurely, despite maintaining that she had never attempted an abortion.


    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Vive la France



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Vive la revolution

    Fúck this bullshit of tinkering with this catholic constitution piece by piece, get rid of the whole fûcking thing

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Florida is getting a six-week abortion ban, in effect total

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/2024/04/02/florida-supreme-court-clears-way-for-abortion-ballot-and-six-week-ban/

    But it's also getting a referendum later this year to embed abortion rights in its state constitution. Overturning Roe v. Wade, and court decisions since then which have restricted abortion rights, have already turned out to be counterproductive as the electorates of other states have voted to copperfasten abortion rights.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Arizona has banned abortion too - but, Lo!, Republicans are up in arms about it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/10/arizona-republicans-against-state-abortion-ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Ballot box poison, and it serves them bloody well right.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,536 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Seems like AZ has blocked the first attempt to repeal the 1864 abomination. Republicans thought it too soon. New boards linking doesn't seem to like archive.ph. archive.ph zrgE7



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Oh, and lest we forget, IVF is not decided yet in Alabamastan. There's a 'short-term measure' reducing risk to IVF providers is all.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/alabama-lawmakers-ivf-protection-bill-vote-rcna141710



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,970 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Growing calls for proposed changes to Ireland's abortion law to be implemented

    Motivated I guess by the appointment of a new taoiseach and the sense that the clock is running out for the current government



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Bullsht 'counseling services' making de wimmens lives miserable if they think about abortion. RTE nailed 2 of them in an investigation. https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2024/0415/1443681-undercover-in-counselling-services-misleading-women-on-abortion/



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Programme is on RTE1 right now (starts on RTE1 +1 at 10:35)

    Good so far and not getting into the usual crapola about whether abortion should be allowed or not. It is allowed, the focus is on whether services are being delivered as they should.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,805 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    SF joining in now.

    Sinn Féin’s health spokesperson David Cullinane said he is “open” to changes on the 12-week abortion limit.

    He said it is not right that women have to travel abroad to access abortion services but said the 12-week limit needs “further engagement”.

    He called on the three-day waiting period between a woman visiting a GP and having a termination to be scrapped.

    Currently, two doctors need to sign off on an abortion in fatal feotal abnormality cases if they agree the baby would die within 28 days. Mr Cullinane said the 28-day period also should be done away with.

    Okay…

    “I’m very conscious that that 12 weeks was part of the original legislation that went to the people

    Aaaarghhh

    No, we didn't put legislation to the people, we put a constitutional amendment to the people. We voted to allow the Oireachtas to legislate precisely because we did NOT want the legislation surrounding abortion to be set in stone like it was under the 8th. There is no time provision in the constitution and rightly so.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,981 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Harris questioned today about it.

    Brîd Smith ( of all people !) very capably reading back his previous stance on it which illustrates that he would have considered what is now happening as a " government in dereliction of its duty " ...this his own statement on how legislation should be enacted to support the results of the referendum effectively!

    He then replies with it being put ' to the people ' in the referendum. But as she responded to him , the 3 day wait for an abortion , and 28 day limit for the 2 doctors to sign off on a FFA was never suggested or discussed before the referendum , so it was incorrect to say it was what people voted for .

    Both of those points along with the threat of a 14 year sentence for doctors are what is causing the stifling of abortion services for women in this country .

    Not a fan of hers in general but I am in agreement with her on this .

    Women have fobbed off with this legislation which is ham fisted and ill conceived , unless of course you are a government trying to reduce the effectiveness of legislating for abortion.

    Nobody wants legislation set in stone I agree .

    And it is precisely for this reason that the government need to enact legislative changes based on the review they commissioned , and the report they have sitting on their desks for over a year now .

    Those changes are three years a-waiting , two years delay in the report being commissioned, because of Covid ..fair enough .

    But why has nothing been done about it in the last year ?



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