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N24 - Cahir to Limerick Junction [design and planning underway]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    Bohercrowe to Limerick junction is offline and the section between Limerick junction and monard is very short .I know there is some locals saying it will take 3 years to build and traffic disruptions in the area will for 3 years . The 3 years would be an estimated time for the entire construction of the route , the Limerick junction to monard section would only need a fraction of that time to complete. Most of it is just sepulation until there is a detailed design.



  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭BagofWeed


    5 roundabouts between the Cashel Rd and Monard ! On an interurban ! How is it other projects on national primary roads don't have these in such a short section ? An extremely underpowered design. Why so many roundabouts and not separated interchanges like other NPR's get ? The proposed road from Bohercrow to Monard will have to cross the existing road 3 times in a very short section guaranteeing traffic disruption during construction all along that stretch. The existing road may well be moved to facilitate the new road meaning even more disruption. A by pass should be just that, a by pass, these plans are basically a relief road like the Inner Relief Frank Drohan Rd in Clonmel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭BagofWeed


    ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    U have seen the design already ?. No one knows if they are roundabouts , compact gsj or t junctions yet . There may not be 3 crossings ,there may only be 1 crossing of the current road . A parallel road can be build offline first and traffic travel on that while an upgrade of the current is done .

    Post edited by steeler j on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The only junction that you could definitely say will be a roundabout is the one east of Bansha:

    Of course people will complain that this creates a dog-leg in the N24, but my feeling is that the majority of traffic in this area is moving between Bansha and Cahir, with very low traffic levels on the stretch running north of Bansha (the current road is very quiet west of Bansha as it is). Seeing that most drivers want to leave/join N24 at this point, any kind of compact grade-separated junction here would be more expensive and produce worse traffic flow than the roundabout.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Paddico


    I would be very surprised if there was any roundabouts.

    Still very much in the design phase and free flow is whats always in mind creating these new roads



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    As per KrisW1001 above, the revised design turns that junction east of Bansha from freeflow on the N24 with a link road to the existing N24 to a new layout with a three arm roundabout, one leg N24 to Limerick, one leg N24 to Cahir and 3rd leg connecting to the existing N24.

    I would be incredibly surprised for this project to be anything other than a Tipp Town/Bansha bypass for the time being. It can be revisited with a new link to the N24 at Cahir with a less hostile Minister.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I see no reason for this to ever be revisited. We need to lose the fetish for free-flow junctions everywhere - this is a low-traffic road, and the majority of traffic here is Bansha-Cahir, so a roundabout makes the most sense. The next most sensible in terms of volume is a Turn-off-to-stay-on (TOTSO) arrangement, with the mainline turning toward Bansha and drivers not wishing to go there must take an exit to re-join N24.

    The problem with that second option is that it would cause accidental traffic going through Bansha, defeating the main objective of this scheme, which is to get long-distance traffic out of these two towns.

    I expect this to be a 2+2 for the length, with one roundabout east of Bansha, and Compact GSJs for the other junctions. I don’t expect all three junctions around Limerick Junction to end up being built, though. That would be far more than this quiet route will need for decades.

    Tipperary Town and Bansha are fairly small settlements, so this road running near to them doesn’t risk it becoming a collector-distributor as could happen near to bigger towns. It's the number of junctions, not the proximity that makes the difference between a good long-distance bypass and a C/D road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭MentalMario


    Anybody want to take a guess at how much time this will save compared to the current road?


    Say Cahir to Limerick City.


    Currently an hour or so. Should it save 20 minutes at rush hour?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭touts


    Middle of the night with no traffic and sticking to the speed limit you would do Cahir to Limerick in 50 minutes.

    Middle of the day it all depends on traffic. There is a constant stream of traffic and not a lot of overtaking opportunities so come up behind something slow and you could easily be 1 hr 10min.

    If there is anything wrong in Tipperary town you could add another 10 or 15 minutes to that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Popoutman


    No other country in Europe is designing new national primary routes between cities where one must yield to lesser traffic at any point outside of actual urban areas. I'd be happy to see any new road projects built in the past ten years or projected in the next ten that are "yield to lesser traffic" at any point - if anyone has examples that contradict me, please let us know.

    It's absolutely nuts to actively design roads between cities with roundabouts on those roads, no matter what the local traffic patterns are. We need to stop thinking that roundabouts are appropriate on national primary routes. It's fairly obvious that if the road network improves, that the network will be utilised more.

    As for the time saving possibility? The 63 km of road between Limerick to Cahir road was fairly regularly driven at off peak hours in under 45 minutes with no traffic, but any traffic at all and that could easily take 1h20. The new roads should make that journey be a nice consistent 35 minutes at 120kph. If it's a 100kph limit, that would be a pity and a missed opportunity.

    The real advantage of clear free-flowing roads that don't vary in speed limit or get constricted at roundabouts or villages, is the near-guarantee of trip timings. It's rarely appropriate to think of a road's benefit as "the reduction in travel time" as that is often not much of an improvement compared to the previous best-case scenarios. Now, if one were to compare the travel times at the average high-utilisation times, that would a lot more useful - but that is not how the average driver's mind works.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    “Lesser” traffic? Fetishising the end-points of the route and ignoring the reality of where people are actually travelling is a bad way to plan roads. It’s just another side of the dumb argument that because an upgraded N24+M8 connects Cork to Limerick, there’s no reason to upgrade N20.

    Roundabouts are commonplace on low-traffic routes, and this is a low-traffic route, and is unlikely to get busier for decades. If the roundabout you’re unhappy about is the one for Bansha, I think you’re getting upset over nothing much: for N24-N24 traffic, it will take about 10 seconds to traverse this (and only because these are big roundabouts, usually 80 m diameter), and N24 will be dual carriageway on either side. And while it looks like a sharp turn on a map, you have to remember that that map line is 50 m thick, while the total width of road, including verges, will be a little under 20 m. That’s still enough room to create a smooth approach, and I can almost guarantee that on the approach to this roundabout from both sides, N24 will clearly be the “straight through” option - I really don’t think anyone looking for Limerick will be confused about where their “main” road is.

    But using a roundabout here will save about 10 million euro on build costs and have an infinitesimally small effect on overall journey times. You appear to know this road, so you know exactly why it gets slow, and it’s not due to having high volumes of traffic, but getting stuck behind slow-moving vehicles.

    This upgrade is not being built to improve journey times - it’s being done to remove an unsafe stretch of road from the National Primary network. The choice of 2+2 over wide single carriageway is on safety grounds given higher share of those slow, heavy vehicles: on a single-carriageway this would encourage dangerous overtaking; on a 2+2 passing is much safer.

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Paddico


    I honestly think they will be temporary. It just doesnt make sense.

    On a different note, some local politicians are pissed off. Only 1m approx. initially given to the project instead of an expected 3+ mil. Seems a little short sighted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Or there’s the possibility that the “€3+ million” you mention included a contingency that will not now be needed, or that the council was fishing for three million even though they knew they didn’t need that much.

    Local politicians are always angry about something - it’s part of the job, really. I’m confident that if €3m was provided, some other fella would be giving out about money being thrown at that road while schools, nursing home, etc, etc...



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,710 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is getting Eamon Ryaned folks. Best bet is it is still held up until the Greens are out at the next election and a re-design.

    Absolutely low grade dross being planned here.

    It's the people in the regional centers that should be most angry. Being short changed compared to roads to Dublin.

    The 'M20' is getting Eamon Ryaned too. Doesn't need to be motorway all the way don't you know? Like all those other first world countries that accept half assed excrement for primary road links.

    That's what we're being served.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Oh come off it.

    There’s no way in the world this road would be built at anything above 2+2. Most countries would use a single-carriageway for this kind of traffic level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    You've been Eamon Ryaned.

    The greens.

    Voting in elections.

    Eamon Ryan.

    Eamon Ryan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭BagofWeed



    Just like I suspected you obviously know sfa about that road and how busy it actually is. Plus the fact it connects two regions and two cities is lost on you. Do you think Ireland is going to stop growing ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Let's engage seriously, I suggest we could discuss how busy it is? Where is the point of particular concern to you?

    East of Tipp town has AADT of 6,648 with 6.5% HGV's

    Cahir has 7,501 with 11% HGV's

    West of Clonmel is 11,500 with 8% HGV's

    East of Clonmel has 14,000 with 6% HGV's

    East of Carrick has 7,000 with 8.5% HGV's

    There's two stretches there, particularly centred around Clonmel that are above single-lane level.

    What KrisW1001 wrote is demonstrably true: "Most countries would use a single-carriageway for this kind of traffic level".

    Without even referencing standards, the N40 is beginning to fail somewhere above 80,000 AADT.

    I fully agree that there's very few countries that would design the N24 as more than 2+2. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Just as an aside, the N25 East of Killeagh is above all of the N24 AADT, and it's not even on the NTA radar as a priority. N22 at Lissarda is the same. But people are saying "more than 2+2" for the N24? That's just being silly. There's no real historical growth rate for traffic on this route either, in case anyone brings that up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    Extra funding made available up to 2.5 million allocation for this year now



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001




  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭BagofWeed


    You can throw up as many stats as you wish and I'm not saying they are false but you or those stats won't change my opinion or the opinion of people who have to frequent the N24 on a regular basis. The whole route is dangerous with hundreds of entry/exits and houses and the current state of it between Limerick in particular Oola/Monard and Cahir is and has been for many decades a hindrance to growth in Tipperary Town.

    Waterford and Limerick may be small but in an Irish context they are large focal points and need a decent connection between them. I'm not too bothered as such about 2+2 but not with a heap of roundabouts on a twisty mainline such as is the current plan for Tipperary Town. Not good enough do it properly or don't do it all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I'm not "throwing up stats" I'm comparing the design criteria for roads against the actual numbers using the road.

    So it's back to you: you can give as much baseless uninformed emotional rationale as you like, the majority of traffic on this road isn't end-to-end. If you want a design based on end-to-end traffic then I absolutely promise you, you will not get a 2+2.


    Just to recap:

    East of Tipp town has AADT of 6,648 with 6.5% HGV's

    East of Clonmel has 14,000 with 6% HGV's

    That's a delta of over 50%. Well under 50% of the traffic is end-to-end. A junction and entrance-free 2+2 for the benefit of less than 7,000 AADT?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭obi604


    high level, is there a rough date when this will be finished? 1 year, 5 years etc



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭BagofWeed


    1st up is the the strange assertion that your were not throwing up stats when it's as obvious as day that AADT's are in actual fact, stats ! Road statistics are stats. Stats is short for statistics.

    So you wish to insult another poster by describing his opinion on a road that he as very familiar with as 'baseless uniformed emotional rational ? Coming from a poster who is confused about 'stats' that is very rich indeed.

    Where did I say I thought most of the road's traffic was end for end. Where did I say I wanted an end to end design ?

    'Junction and entrance free', what in the name of English are you trying to say here ? I'm sure you are confused but as I'm a nice guy I'll explain to you that I do not wish to see ROUNDABOUTS on the Tipp town bypass, at either end as ties in to the existing roads, yes but not on the mainline itself.

    The last bit is gas as you contradict your first sentence and actually produce.. stats !

    This is Tipp Town's one and only chance to get a bypass and it should be done properly, all those roundabouts will just reduce it to a hybrid by pass/relief road and it could eventually end up congested similar to the Clonmel Inner Relief Frank Drohan Road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    You're the only one who thinks all the junctions on this scheme are going to be roundabouts. Care to share this secret knowledge?

    I'm waiting for the actual design before complaining about anything, but we're all different, I suppose...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The post you took exception to had nothing to do with roundabouts at all. You only pivoted to discussion of roundabouts after I posted (googled!) numbers of traffic. The post you took exception to read simply: "There’s no way in the world this road would be built at anything above 2+2. Most countries would use a single-carriageway for this kind of traffic level."

    Because you first accused someone of knowing "sfa about how busy the road actually is", I - in the most simplistic manner possible - googled which of the two of you were correct. And there wasn't any basis to what you wrote. None whatsoever. The poster "KrisW1001" was absolutely 100% correct in what they wrote. And when I posted that, you accused me of "throwing up stats" and pivoted to talk about roundabouts and the numbers of entry/exits and wrote that "you or stats won't change my opinion".

    Of course nobody can discuss those roundabouts rationally because no design has been published. You may be right or you may be wrong about the roundabouts. But...well...I have no idea.

    Regarding "emotional baseless and uninformed", you seem to have taken that as an insult but it was again intended as fact, though a harsh way of expressing it.

    Your rationale for this road needing to be motorway grade was baseless because you have no factual basis for your argument. If there were any facts to back it up, I would gladly read them, but they have yet to be shared and indeed you've pivoted to entirely unrelated points now. It's uninformed because you have stated a belief that a road with such low traffic numbers should or would ever be considered for motorway grade. That's just not true. It was emotional because you introduced emotional topics such as Waterford and Limerick being "focal points" as a basis for a road upgrade and you're trying to inject urgency to the issue saying things like "this is the only chance", and you're trying to make it a case of "us and them" by referring to the end users of the road etc. Whereas traffic and safety are what really matters to the chosen design. And actually you have no idea what roads other people travel on.

    If you have access to a published design regarding the roundabouts I will very happily discuss them too. But not without seeing some details because my opinions would be baseless and uninformed. Likely fuelled by my own personal emotions too, realistically.

    And regarding the number of entry/exits, I honestly don't know any more whether you want to discuss it or not. You brought it up but didn't seem to like it when I referred to it. My preference would always be for as few entrances/exits/gates/etc as possible on an inter-urban route like this, personally, but that's not always easy to do.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Paddico


    Out of curiously, am I the only one who thinks non of the junctions will be roundabouts .... 😅



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