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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.


    You don't need to be a genius to read between the lines of everything they were saying



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    But the price differential across the border in Ireland was substantial enough before MUP, and of course is a lot higher now on many drinks since MUP. Before MUP in Scotland there was no incentive to go to England to buy alcohol at all.

    Remember our MUP level is set higher than Scotland's, our VAT rate is higher than NI (and rest of UK), our excise rate is a lot higher than NI (and rest of UK)

    So MUP in Ireland took a situation where there was already an incentive to shop across the border and made that incentive bigger.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I can certainly see them openly campaigning within a few years for ration cards. You'll be allocated a certain number of (very expensive) weekly units and no more. Said number and said expense to be subject to continual AAI lobbying to worsen them.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I can pop over the border in a few minutes, so that won't bother me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,141 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    To prove my point that I reject your attempts to set the bounds of the debate:

    They are an organisation focused only on alcohol. So they are being judged on what they have said. Given what they have said, and in the absence of a firm statement to the contrary, I think it is reasonable to draw the conclusion as to their ultimate goal re: long term in favour of banning of alcohol. They dont give speeches / policy positions on Ukraine. Or Global warming. But about alcohol and its availability and accessibility. So entirely valid to draw conclusions about what they do not say about alcohol.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Was it them who came up with the idea of the ration cards? Or where did that suggestion come from?



  • Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭bluedex


    I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

    Just to weigh in with my opinion:

    MUP, another ridiculous and stupid measure introduced precisely when inflation is at it's highest point in decades. Even more stupid than the 10.30/12.30 time restraint, as the unintended consequences are much worse.

    It's already started, but watch all the alarm bells going off when the increase in drug use is being reported and debated, with everyone wondering how this happened. Best idea would probably be to ban drugs... oh, wait....

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

    They don't give speeches or have policy positions on prohibition either, but don't let that hold back your wild leaps of imagination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭JohnnyFortune


    Their Annual Review 2020 states that "Our vision is a society free from alcohol harm". So considering that even 1 drink can do harm, it's pretty clear what they want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

    If you were right, they'd have left out the 'harm' bit.

    But they didn't.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭JohnnyFortune


    You can't stop alcohol harm without stopping alcohol. It's hardly rocket science.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

    That's your words, not theirs. It's funny how with all the vast amounts of detailed papers and policies on their website, you have to go making stuff up about what they might want to do in the future to have something to moan about.




  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭JohnnyFortune


    It is a scientific fact, as backed up by the WHO. I have made nothing up. AAI use the WHO as a source extensively.

    "No level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health

    To identify a “safe” level of alcohol consumption, valid scientific evidence would need to demonstrate that at and below a certain level, there is no risk of illness or injury associated with alcohol consumption. The new WHO statement clarifies: currently available evidence cannot indicate the existence of a threshold at which the carcinogenic effects of alcohol “switch on” and start to manifest in the human body."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

    Again, your words and not theirs. They talk about 'society free from alcohol harm', no more and no less than that.



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    Lads, I'm no fan of AAI or of MUP.....buuuut.....Andrew is correct on this one, I'm afraid. You're all basically making up your own 'goals' and attributing them to AAI for no reason.

    "So they are being judged on what they have said. Given what they have said, and in the absence of a firm statement to the contrary...."

    These two sentences directly contradict each other. "They are being judged on what they have said, and even though they haven't said they are for prohibition, I'm gonna judge them on that too".

    You then double down on this again at the end of your paragraph:

    So entirely valid to draw conclusions about what they do not say about alcohol.

    You're not judging them on what they're saying. You are judging them on what you THINK they're saying. You are 100% free to do this, but you cannot then lambast them for something that you, essentially, pulled out of thin air. Your line of thinking is completely at odds with logic. It's the equivalent of interviewing a celebrity and saying "I see you haven't come out and spoken against Jeffrey Epstein, therefore you are pro child-molestation, you sick pervert".

    Doesn't work like that. You cannot attribute a POV/stance/statement to someone because they have refused to say the opposite, which is what you're attempting to do here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,141 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nope, it's not out of thin air and frankly it is absurd to suggest that.It's on the continuum from the policies they have openly advocated for.

    Likewise you also accuse me 'completely out of thin air' of lambasting them on this basis alone or directly attributing specific statements to them. How about pointing specifically to the post in which I did that- well?

    And I don't think anyone who has actually read the posts on the thread could come out with a ridiculous example such as Jeffrey Epstein, when a similarly ridiculous comparison with Putin was already dealt with.

    If an organisation or party started advocating for policies such as making abortions more difficult to access, and made no statement that they support abortion being legal in certain circumstances ... would it be out of thin air to question that they might be in fact ultimately set on trying to get abortion outlawed fully? Would it be illogical? Clearly not.

    I am judging them exactly on what they have said AND what they have not said. Because what they have not said is directly relevant to their core area of policy. I attributed no direct statement to them NOR did I 'lambast' them specifically or solely for that. But it is reasonable to come to a conclusion about their stance and POV on an issue that directly relates to that core area.

    Similarly if a manager is having a run of defeats, and the chairman \ board does NOT come out with public backing, it is entirely reasonable to conclude they they are considering the manager's position.

    And as I've explained below:

    Let us imagine a party which pitches itself as pacifist and in its agenda say it will cut military spending etc. It does not give any commitment to retain say a nuclear deterrent. Is a discussion that said party ultimately seeks to get rid of the nuclear deterrent based on 'rumours'? Would there be no basis for saying they plan to get rid of it? I think we can see such a standard would preclude debate of any political topic outside the present exact text of a party \ organisation's agenda or manifesto

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,884 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Just out of interest Andrew, how much lower would you like to see alcohol consumption drop in Ireland?

    It's already dropping steadily every year. More and more young people are turning their back on drink.

    Where would you like to see it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

    The death penalty for having a pint is on the continuum from the policies they have openly advocated for. The only question is how far you want to leap from their actual policies to your imaginary policies.

    I'm not an expert, but I'd like to see it at the level where it isn't accounting for vast amounts of hospital resources, particularly (but not limited to) emergency departments, and vast amounts of Gardai resources too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,101 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    Molloys Blanchardstown - 10 pack of Coors 500ml - up to €25 - rip-off bstrds really taking the piss now. 😡



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    But the latter issue around ER and Gardai resources can also be tackled by changing licensing to be less restrictive as in other european countries, so far all weve done is restrict licensing and sales and the problem of violence requiring those resources has if anything only gotten worse. However AAI are also against changes like extending hours or cafe licenses despite all available evidence showing they might very well have a positive impact. This shows clearly their fundamentalist attitude being simply "alcohol = bad".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    A younger neighbour from back home players rugby and is into his gym, the whole gym lifestyle, Instagram etc...

    His fairly open about not drinking, but will take a bucket of cocaine & pills...

    He'll go out, drink mi wadi or water and then drop and/snort all sorts, and says it's a very common approach from the majority of his peers...says you can get enough drugs for a night for a fraction of the price of drink and he doesn't need to worry about the calories that would be in the alcohol



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Do you know who his dealers are, and whether they can be relied on to supply good cocaine?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,757 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    That's €2.50 a can, way too much to pay.

    Last week Lidl had Coors 20x330ml bottles for €22.39.

    Works out at €1.70 a can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You píss all over the arguments against MUP then admit that you don't give a fúck about it anyway. *Slow Clap*

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I was responding to the post that said there are going to be ration cards. Not just me, but thousands more could get round that by going over the border. It would also fail because people could pass on their purchases to others. Or they could hoard their purchases and then have binges. And it would probably need overall EU agreement to reduce the import limits currently in place.

    Some of my other posts are pointing out the flaws in arguments claiming that MUP is going to lead to prohibition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

    I'm not here to speak for AAI, maybe there are better alternatives out there.



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    Nope, it's not out of thin air and frankly it is absurd to suggest that.It's on the continuum from the policies they have openly advocated for.

    In your mind, it is. You're literally making it up and saying it out loud, then attributing it to them.

    Likewise you also accuse me 'completely out of thin air' of lambasting them on this basis alone or directly attributing specific statements to them. How about pointing specifically to the post in which I did that- well?

    Hold on a sec.....are you claiming now that you AREN'T saying they want to ban alcohol completely?

    And I don't think anyone who has actually read the posts on the thread could come out with a ridiculous example such as Jeffrey Epstein, when a similarly ridiculous comparison with Putin was already dealt with.

    Why not? I'm just doing what you are doing, right? I'm judging you on what you said and what you didn't say, thats how it works, yeah?

    If an organisation or party started advocating for policies such as making abortions more difficult to access, and made no statement that they support abortion being legal in certain circumstances ... would it be out of thin air to question that they might be in fact ultimately set on trying to get abortion outlawed fully? Would it be illogical? Clearly not.

    Correct, well done. Now, compare your sentence above (and notice that the word "MIGHT" is doing a lot of heavy lifting) with your previous assertions that they definitely want to eliminate alcohol completely. Which is your stance, yeah?

    I am judging them exactly on what they have said AND what they have not said.

    Translation: I've made it up and attributed it to them so that I can be angry at them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,141 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Eh what post did you do that in? Post #8267.

    It's right here, in direct reply to mine, implicitly directed at me:

    You cannot attribute a POV/stance/statement to someone

    You are 100% free to do this, but you cannot then lambast them for something

    So where specifically did I do either of those things?

    You seem to be concerned about people making things up, so check your own posts for it first.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    You're not making any sense, I'm afraid.

    Are you now trying to get bogged down in the semantics of the word lambast? You are being harshly critical of AAI here on this thread, going so far as to imagine their ultimate goal is authoritarian in nature. That is the dictionary definition of lambast.

    As for the statement part, this is you (in post 8164) putting words in their mouth. You are inventing an entire ethos for the organisation and attributing it to them:

    Given what they have said, and in the absence of a firm statement to the contrary, I think it is reasonable to draw the conclusion as to their ultimate goal re: long term in favour of banning of alcohol.

    Your entire argument is flawed. You are saying that, because AAI HAVEN'T said they're against prohibition then they MUST be in favour of it (despite the inconvenient fact that they haven't come out and said they're FOR prohibition either).

    "they haven't said they're against prohibition, logic dictates that must mean they're for it"

    "have they said they're for prohibition?"

    "no"

    "so that same logic must dictate that they're against it then, yeah?"

    "😡 no, it doesn't work like that"

    Completely circular, flawed and hypocritical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,141 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    First off, I explained with reference to nuclear deterrent programmes and anti-abortion groups the logical and reasonable basis for my position, on why it is entirely valid in politics to form opinions and come to conclusions from what is said AND not said.

    Coming back to these specific points - they are the words you chose.

    That you have to twist and abuse their meaning - while lecturing me on putting words in AAI's mouth is deeply hypocritical and undermines your entire argument.

    This is the definition of 'statement':

    a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing

    So where did I do that? I precisely did not. You were asked to point to the post where I did that. You were completely unable to. You didn't even try. I did assign an ethos \ POV to them, and with regard to the above examples such as anti-abortion this is valid to do. Nowhere did I attribute a 'statement' to them to that effect.

    Nor did I lambast them for that position alone and this point was put to you clearly in the last post. I have for sure 'criticised harshly' their declared agenda and their POV on alcohol. But nowhere did I lambast them specifically on the conclusion re: eventual prohibition. You seem to have made an assumption that merely attributing that position to them in implicitly a 'lambasting'. But that's your interpretation of it. So you are accusing me of lambasting them for wanting prohibition, yet I have already lambasted them on the thread for MUP. So your point seems circular.

    So that's not me playing semantic games. That's you making a false accusation and trying to dodge being challenged on it by playing semantic games.

    Everything you have accused me of- you have just done.

    Pointless engaging further on that basis.

    I stand over what I said re: reasonable conclusion to come to as to their ultimate agenda.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,836 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Doesn't really matter. AAI are not the ones dictating this policy. This is wide political support, support from the producers, the retailers, the Vintners. While AAI might be vocalising the debate, the only reason that they are getting anywhere is that other powerful groups also want this.

    It seems odd to me that people are so focused on AAI. If AAI are so powerful, why are licencing laws being amended?



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    First off, I explained with reference to nuclear deterrent programmes and anti-abortion groups the logical and reasonable basis for my position, on why it is entirely valid in politics to draw conclusions from what is said AND not said.


    "Drawing conclusions" is just another way of saying "making it up". You are inferring your own interpretation of what they say (and don't say, for some fcuked up reason). You admit yourself that these are all your own interpretations. You may have reasons for coming to those conclusions, but they are still YOUR conclusions and mean SFA in the grand scheme of things. You think that prohibition may be their ultimate goal, despite the fact that they haven't said so. In fact, you're using the fact that they haven't said so as some sort of perverse reasoning to mean that they DO want it. And you are here giving them stick for it, when it's all made up in your own head. You sound like a basket case.

    This is the definition of 'statement':

    a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing

    So where did I do that? I precisely did not. You were asked to point to the post where I did that. You were completely unable to. You didn't even try. I did assign an ethos \ POV to them, and with regard to the above examples such as anti-abortion this is valid to do. Nowhere did I attribute a 'statement' to them to that effect.

    Someone called them neo-prohibitionists. You were defending that statement, while claiming their ultimate goal is, in your opinion, total prohibition. Despite the fact that they have never actually said it, you claim they want to ban alcohol entirely. Is this correct, yes or no?

    Btw, This is you admitting to putting words in their mouth, twice, in the one post:

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299782/#Comment_120299782

    You also make the claim in this post that "their anti alcohol agenda could involve prohobition." You are claiming they are making 'a clear expression of something in speech' when they have done no such thing. You sir, are pulling this all out of your arse.

    So that's not me playing semantic games.

    I'm afraid you are. You're trying to wriggle out of the rock you've put yourself under by playing semantics with the definitions of "statement" and "lambast". Called it. And you are now trying to claim the moral high ground by accusing me of that which you yourself are guilty of. Classic move. Laughable, but classic.

    I stand over what I said re: reasonable conclusion to come to as to their ultimate agenda.

    I completely and utterly reject this assertion. It is absolutely 100% unreasonable to make such a claim with zero evidence to back it up. And "them not saying the opposite" is not evidence. It's insane that you could think like that, actually.

    Pointless engaging further on that basis.

    Finally, something we can agree on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    You're muddying the water by using the word Reasonable. It is all over legislation (including 16 times in the Public Health (Alcohol) Act), leaving it to courts if necessary to judge what it means in any given circumstance. Just come out and say that you have definite proof.

    reasonable

    adj., adv. in law, just, rational, appropriate, ordinary or usual in the circumstances. It may refer to care, cause, compensation, doubt (in a criminal trial), and a host of other actions or activities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭TinCanMan


    Is that Tesco? I've noticed that with them recently. They've basically put the normal price as the clubcard price and added extra for those without(so no real discount as such). It's all about tracking your shopping habits.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,052 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The pub trade in the UK must have some good contacts in the Government. Announcement in Budget 2023.

    Mr Hunt said: "My penultimate cost of living measure concerns one of our other most treasured community institutions, the great British pub. In December, I extended the alcohol duty freeze until 1 August, after which duties will go up in line with inflation in the usual way.

    But today, I will do something that was not possible when we were in the EU and significantly increase the generosity of Draught Relief.

    So that from August 1 the duty on draught products in pubs will be up to 11p lower than the duty in supermarkets, a differential we will maintain as part of a new Brexit pubs guarantee.

    "Madam Deputy Speaker, British ale may be warm, but the duty on a pint is frozen.

    "And even better, thanks to the Windsor Framework negotiated by my RHF the Prime Minister, that change will now also apply to every pub in Northern Ireland."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Well that surely makes Brexit worthwhile, eh! </SARCASM>

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    We could, I assume, have a reduced VAT rate on alcohol sold in pubs the same as restaurant was brought down to 9%.

    Or they could, and in Scotland did, have gone with MUP.

    In other words, more than one way to skin a cat and no need for Brexit to come up with a workaround!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The VAT on alcohol and soft drinks in restaurants is still 23%.

    Temporary VAT Reduction to 9% for Hospitality Sector

    The VAT rate for the tourism and hospitality sector was temporarily reduced from 13.5 per cent to 9 per cent on Nov 1st 2020. This was to help the sector during Covid and was announced in Budget 2021 .

    The reduced 9% VAT rate was due to end in August 2022 but it was extended until 28 February 2023 and has now been extended again to August 31st 2023.

    The 9% reduced VAT rate on hospitality applies to: – catering and restaurant services (food not soft drinks or alcohol), tourist accommodation, cinemas, theatres, museums, historic houses, open farms, amusement parks, certain printed matter, and hairdressing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,496 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But contrary to what many here like to think the initiative was not about supporting pubs.

    It was about getting rid of the "loss leader" cheap* alcohol sales which dominated the market, raising the floor so that it would become less accessible.

    So reducing pub VAT had nothing to do with it.

    *I expect people to jump in with the usual "but it's not cheap, it's the most expensive alcohol in Europe".

    But it's relatively cheap, and pre MUP supermarket beer was relatively the cheapest it's ever been.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,757 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    *I expect people to jump in with the usual "but it's not cheap, it's the most expensive alcohol in Europe".

    But it's relatively cheap, and pre MUP supermarket beer was relatively the cheapest it's ever been.

    Relatively doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

    In the last six EU countries I have visited namely Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Italy and Germany I could buy wine and beer cheaper in a supermarket than here. I could also buy a bottle of Irish whiskey cheaper than here.

    And just for fun I'll throw in the UK which I visit more often.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    We have higher average salaries than all of those countries.

    Alcohol still isnt expensive in the supermarkets here.

    I get that the low price point alcohol has moved up in price, but its not really accurate to say it is expensive when you can still buy a can of lager for 2 euro. It would be 6 or 7 euro in a pub for a pint of the same lager, so I dont see the argument that this is a vested interest policy from the Vintners.

    Anyone that thinks a can of lager costing 2 euro is expensive is almost certainly not going to pubs very often.

    So we seem to be talking about 2 different groups with different perceptions of reasonable price points for alcohol (home drinkers at the lower price point Vs pub goers)

    Its not as if a home drinker that is unhappy about paying 2 euro a can is going to start goimg to the pub every weekend in protest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    In France I could buy a lovely win for 4 maybe 5 euro, here the price would be at least 12. So your comparison on salaries only works if our average salary is more than twice what there average is. FYI its not.

    It is absolutely correct to say Alcohol across the board is expensive in this country in fact its correct to say its the second most expensive in the EU.

    Your comparison between pubs and off sales is completely disingenuous and if you dont think its a vested interest from the vintners can you explain why they show up in the lobbying register well over 20 times to specifically lobby for minimum unit pricing being enacted?

    Also lets not forget this little nugget they quietly stopped spouting about as it made them look ridiculous https://www.lobbying.ie/return/29668/vintners-federation-of-ireland

    More than 60% of all alcohol is now sold via mixed trade retail units. A decade ago 70% of all alcohol was sold & consumed in pubs/restaurants/hotels with the remainder sold in independent off-licences & to a lesser extent supermarkets & mixed trade outlets. This change has contributed to the debate about the effects of binge drinking & a lack of control in this area & has been facilitated to a large extent by the change in S8 (4), Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 which repealed S13 of the 1960 Act.

    I remember very clearly an interview done on Newstalk back in about 2016/2017 when the president of the VFI was on radio pushing for MUP by claiming it was safer for people to drink in bars than at home because barmen were trained professionals..... the implication being you wouldn't/couldn't get fall down drunk in a pub etc because the barmen wouldn't allow it. I'm in my late 30s and can count on my fingers of one hand how many times ive seen someone refused service in an Irish pub for being too drunk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Wine is cheaper in France because its produced there.

    I do agree with you that alcohol is expensive in ireland vs other countries, but its expensive in pubs/restaurants etc. Not if the off liscence.

    2 euro a can is not expensive. It isnt insanely cheap, but its certainly not expensive either.

    The bottom line is that you can still buy a 4 pack of beer for the price of 1 pint in the pub.

    Pubs, in Dublin at least, are still very busy with plenty of new ones opening.

    So unless the MUP price point was significantly raised and equated to 3 or maybe 3.50 a can of beer, there wont ever be enough opposition to MUP because it simply doesnt affect enough people with its current low price point.

    As I mentioned on a previous post, anyone that visits a pub or restaurant even once a month would not even notice MUP existed. The prices are so low in off licenses vs a pub and its only the cheap beers that are impacted anyway.

    I do empathise with someone on a low income that drinks responsibly and feels they are being penalised by MUP and I think that is a fair point.

    But I dont think the majority of people that drink are impacted at all by MUP, its just too low bar for those people to even notice.

    As long as the majority of drinkers arent impacted by it, opposition to it at scale wont gain any traction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Teelings whiskey is produced here and yet is virtually the same price here that it is in France, a wine produced in NZ that I enjoy is more than twice the price here than it is in France so once again your logic doesn't pass the smell test by any stretch.

    Especially considering in 2020 France consumed more alcohol per capita than we did, theres no figures for France 2021 yet but we also consumed less alcohol in 2021 than any previous year continuing the 2 decades long decline. This was all prior to MUP being introduced and during 2020 and 2021 while everyone was stuck at home with no pubs to go to so everyone ,going by the pro MUP argument, should have been drowing themselves in so called "cheap booze". The arguments for MUP are completely flawed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    I'd agree that Irish producers don't really pass on the savings domestically, but the central point still stands that MUP is set too low to impact enough people.

    Thats the main point I am making.

    There isn't enough opposition to it in ireland because not enough people in ireland are impacted by it, regardless of the cost of wine in France.

    I believe the reason for MUP being a non issue here is because its so much lower than the cost of alcohol in a pub or restaurant.

    If the price of a pint in Dublin was say 4 euros on average, I could see more people noticing and challenging MUP, "What? its 2 euro a can and 4 for a pint? A can of beer should be way less than half the price of a pint" etc etc

    The issue currently is that a can of beer IS way less than half the price of a pint. In fact its about a third the price to buy a can and it some cases a quarter of the price.

    So most people just dont notice MUP and so there is no significant opposition to it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭dubrov


    It's not Irish producers that make wine much more expensive here than France. It's primarily tax but MUP also has an effect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,757 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    You are right there is no significant opposition to MUP.

    But those of us who see it for what it is harbour a seething resentment for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What a completely nonsensical post @BlueSkyDreams

    Wine is cheaper in France because its produced there.

    But in many countries I can buy a bottle of Irish whiskey for well under half of the cost of the same bottle here, explain that??

    I do agree with you that alcohol is expensive in ireland vs other countries, but its expensive in pubs/restaurants etc. Not if the off liscence.

    It absolutely is. Have you ever been in a supermarket in Spain or France? off-licence in Germany? Corner shop in Czechia? Or basically anywhere else in Europe apart from Scandinavia? All sell a wide range of domestic and international brands at prices which are way less than here.

    2 euro a can is not expensive. It isnt insanely cheap, but its certainly not expensive either.

    2 euro a can for mass market ~4% lagers is very expensive - between two and three times the cost in many EU countries for similar, and around twice the pre-MUP special offer price here (and no evidence has ever been produced that that was a loss leader, either).

    The supermarkets, brewers and distributors are all laughing all the way to the bank at our expense. For mass market lagers produced on a very large scale, the brewing costs are extremely low. It's a very profitable industry which, for some bizarre reason, our government has chosen to make even more profitable.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



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