M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

brianc89 · 09-02-2023 12:11pm

I don't know the route well enough, but given the level of work done to date including CPO notices etc, can the current route be maintained while significantly reducing the cost through fewer junctions or 2+2 instead of motorway?

Or are we back to drawing board again if a road is needed?

Seth Brundle · 09-02-2023 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120219265#Comment_120219265

I'd revert back to my point that they haven't preformed proper studies into traffic numbers because they haven't accounted for any displacement that would make use of proper PT or AT if it were available. How do I know this? Because they haven't any plans for PT or AT options. They could have planned and built proper PT & AT infrastructure several times since the project commenced but for whatever reason it was all about getting the road built - and only the road.

So if a new road is needed, who is it for? How many people will need it daily? Will it discourage people from using PT/AT and back into cars? How will the introduction of a new road affect existing traffic flows at interchanges? What impact on CO2 emissions will it have?

So far, there has been a headstrong approach with absolutely no willingness to look at any alternative options, even for the sake of reducing cost. As has been said loads of times, the current plan is to build a large road with no details on how or when they will improve PT or AT. And to top it off, they admit that it will make traffic worse! There is no way in hell that this project will represent value for money. I would also point out that, like others, I am not against road building in any way. But what is on offer here is not a solution for anyone.

ratracer · 09-02-2023 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120219265#Comment_120219265

I don’t think it even got to the stage of CPO’s being issued though.

I feel very sorry for the 44 households and the businesses located along the route, who have been stuck in limbo for the last 10 years not knowing if they would have to move home, not being able to sell, not knowing whether to precede with home upgrades to energy efficiency etc as they are at the mercy of court decisions/ appeals etc throughout this sorry saga.

Pete_Cavan · 09-02-2023 1:50pm

There are two red herrings which have been pushed repeatedly by those promoting this road. These are 1. that this road is necessary to provide access to/from Connemara (usually accompanied by a sob story about Connemara) and 2. that is necessary to create another bridge over the Corrib (coupled with a vague reference to the existing N6 bridge getting bus lanes). Two noble and worthwhile objectives, but neither intrinsically linked to what has been designed.

While the road as designed may allow for both of those things, a motorway from Coolagh to Barna is not necessary for either. For example, both of those objectives could be achieved by branching off the N6 west of the N83, bridge over the river and swing north to connect to the N59 (maybe a quarter of what has been designed). That of course doesn't facilitate mass car commuting so isn't worth talking about.

Once you accept that the link between both those objectives and the road as designed is a fallacy, it then becomes clear that the purpose of the road as designed is to facilitate and increase car commuting. Those in favour bang the Connemara/third bridge drums because those things are more acceptable than "but I want to drive everywhere but don't want to sit in traffic". It's the equivalent of "what about aul'wans/disabled people" when removing car parking spaces is suggested. It's a socially acceptable thing to hang your own selfish desires on.

TnxM17 · 09-02-2023 1:54pm

The updated National Development Plan has been posted in a seperate thread by @neiljung

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/0969b-ministerial-brief-december-2022/

Of note to this thread is the following on page 77:

The NTA will shortly commence a review of the 2016 Galway Transport Strategy and the development of a new metropolitan area transport strategy for Galway, with an expected publication of a final strategy before the end of 2023.

09-02-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120219723#Comment_120219723

Being realistic, I can't see that new strategy being published until late Q1 2024 if not later though I hope to be wrong about that

09-02-2023 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217831#Comment_120217831

Yep. There’s other things that need doing. But until it does arrive that would mean shutting things down- mitigating through extreme measures such as water based transport across a city. And there are those who focus on making sure it, its predecessors or its successors never arrive instead of focussing on the other parts. They feel the need to kill the crossings stone dead. It’s too valuable a traffic deterrent.

09-02-2023 6:26pm

“There are two red herrings which have been pushed repeatedly by those promoting this road. These are 1. that this road is necessary to provide access to/from Connemara (usually accompanied by a sob story…”

You lost me at “sob story”. It’s like talking to a Brexiteer.

09-02-2023 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217876#Comment_120217876

Can’t fault that.

brianc89 · 09-02-2023 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220928#Comment_120220928

I also don't appreciate this view. Someone else posted that only 3% of traffic is cross county (East Galway to Connemara say). I know people who simply don't, or very rarely, cross the county due to the congestion. It's only 3% cause it's not worth the stress.

On the other hand @[Deleted User] one could definitely argue that city planners are extremely reluctant to rollout PT / AT improvements for fear it'll reduce the support / requirement for the road.

09-02-2023 6:37pm

Ah, the 3% chicken/egg problem returns. F*ck Connemara, they are staristically insignificant. Different century, different bunch of politicos, same Trevelyanist thinking. “We cannot waste funds on them, they do not matter enough to us.”

brianc89 · 09-02-2023 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220963#Comment_120220963

What about my second point? No sarcastic comment for that? 😂

09-02-2023 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220973#Comment_120220973

My apologies Brian, It wasn’t your mention of it I was referring to. It was-

“the movement of traffic going from one side of Galway to get to the other may look obvious it only accounts for 3% of traffic.”

If I *really* wanted to be sarcastic I would have said “The Movement told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ” But no. Not my way. No need to get into that crap.

This new boards layout has me posting multiple times to respond to different posters, and doing it on the phone means sometimes the Quote button does nothing. It was some previous antiroad (anti this road, as any mention of “antiroad” I make in context refers to here) poster that brought it in. Two of them rubbing out Connemara as a statistical anomaly to be ignored. Better I ignore them and remain civil.

Re: your second point, it’s certainly pertinent. It’s the whole either/or argument, and the kind of thing politicos love to do because they *hate* doing the hard work of doing all to certain degrees.

On your first, I’ve made the point before but I would posit that the congestion itself would be viewed as a positive thing by the more militant Green-cause activists. A deterrent against increased activity across the city, and a suppressant of one-off housing demand in Connemara, and population demand in general.

And, to be clear, I am not of the opinion that any of the posters here are so militant as to want to preserve the congestion as an anti-car deterrent. None of you want that. None of us want that.

timmyntc · 14-02-2023 5:54pm

If you care so much for connemara through-traffic, then you should be pushing for greater PT within city limits, which will take traffic off of city roads allowing through-traffic an easier run.

Larbre34 · 14-02-2023 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240558#Comment_120240558

So you're in favour of extraneous traffic in City Centres?

Thats a position I've never heard anyone take before.

what_traffic · 15-02-2023 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220963#Comment_120220963

Why the focus on the 1/10 who are coming from South (3-4% ) and North (5-6%) Connemara who want to "bypass" the City. What about the 9/10 who want to go into the City? Sort that out first I would say as a Connemara person. Spend the funds on that.

Anybody travelling in the Coast Road and Clifden Road this week will tell you there are very little car traffic .... oh its Mid-Term. Take a lot of peak car traffic on the Clifden Road by just building a large Secondary School in Moycullen.

timmyntc · 15-02-2023 10:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240566#Comment_120240566

Crossing the N6 is not "in city centres", and yes given the circumstances traffic that bypasses the city is fine. The intra-city commuters make up the majority of all car traffic - if you were to remove all bypass traffic immediately it would make no difference to congestion.

The problem is those who could be using PT but instead drive - they live in areas where PT can be provided and can be viable (knocknacarra, barna, doughiska, oranmore, athenry, baile chláir, etc) All those places can be served with PT and city PT can be improved and most people going to school, work, or shopping in city can be facilitated.

15-02-2023 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242696#Comment_120242696

Look, you’re not getting Car-to-PT voluntarily. Ever. Not in the volumes you would need to meet targets. You know this. So you need to force it. But of course no one’s ever going to vote to take cars away, they’re like Yanks with guns. So you make sure the physical environment can’t put them on.

it’s all about making the choice not a choice. And the congestion, the road scarcity, they are tools to squeeze people out of the hated cars.

”Don’t care where they go, just they’re not in cars. F*ck ‘em.”

you’ll fig leaf about PT and active travel and “no such thing as bad weather just bad clothing” yada yada but this is all about f*cking over the hated car.

now I’m no fan of cars myself & I’ll take the measures presented. But we need to go the tax, licencing & scrappage route. A tax on cars hurts cars. A lack of road hurts all. A lack of road caps the population. Car or no car.

TnxM17 · 15-02-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243047#Comment_120243047

It’s interesting that in your posts supporting the GCRR you are putting out shall we say ‘interesting’ theories rather than what actual benefits might accrue from building the road in its current plan.

I don’t hate cars, in fact I quite like my own. And I currently need it for work as it takes me over the west & northwest of the country. However, I shouldn't need it for getting around town. I am meeting someone in town soon, to walk is about 29 mins, to drive is 6, cycle 7. The bus will only take me part way. The TII bikes are in the city, so no use. And the Brite bikes are not out until IIRC next month. When those are the choices people will go with the most convenient are cheapest

15-02-2023 1:52pm

It’s what’s on the slab. And has been for the past thirty years. Details change but the essentials stay the same. You can BS all you want about your theories, but we already have indications that the thirty years of antiroad holdup are having an effect on population numbers & growth in Galway & Connemara.

https://connachttribune.ie/galway-city-is-failing-to-meet-key-population-growth-targets/

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/105736/hid-globals-move-to-city-shows-connemara-not-a-priority-for-government

timmyntc · 15-02-2023 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243662#Comment_120243662

That move into the city is because of the difficulty in acquiring staff - many people do not drive, and the public transport options for getting out there were awful. The work is not high paid, but because of the location was only open to people who owned a car.

Moving to the city opens those job prospects to people living in the city, younger people, people without cars, etc. The ring road would have done nothing to stop this move.

15-02-2023 3:36pm

So “no one wants to live in connemara- and that’s how it has to stay. Because they get two mountain passes and two city-deep bridges or a f*cking boat, and let them be happy about it, the ungrateful sh*ts”

i get it on the green end. “Connemara is full of the kind of natural wild beauty we need to replicate all over the country when the humans get it that their place is in the city, stop building one offs out there and start the rewilding of filthy, filthy meat grazing land. It’s the backarse of nowhere and it has to stay that way.”

Pete_Cavan · 15-02-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244196#Comment_120244196

Nobody said like the hyperbolic nonsense you seem to be attributing to others. They are your words, even if you put them in quotation marks.

You seem to love a bit of self-loathing.

15-02-2023 7:10pm

Is that lad able to read my posts? I can’t read him, I have him on ignore I think from the Galway county hamsterwheel thread. I’d love to know why that too became a “National Anti-car Movement News” thread as well, but hey-ho…

hans aus dtschl · 16-02-2023 10:33am

SeaSlacker, you'll notice that I haven't commented or replied to you one way or the other on here or anywhere else, but would you mind giving it a rest? It's getting boring at this stage.

Seth Brundle · 16-02-2023 11:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247371#Comment_120247371

I think he might be referring to me because I previously told him to grow up or something or else it was because I told him to shut up with this paranoia about some kind of well funded national anti-roads movement.

hans aus dtschl · 16-02-2023 11:59am

I don't even mind that that's their point of view: people can believe in conspiracy theories all they want, it's just that sifting through the same post over and over again is boring.

There's been loads of good discussion in this thread with lots of people arguing for and against the Galway ring road, it's just taken a weird turn in the last two or three pages.

Green Peter · 16-02-2023 11:13pm

With all this hot air maybe balloons would be an option.

17-02-2023 1:29am

*edit: post had detail lost by phone. Will return & give detail*

Sam Russell · 17-02-2023 10:18am

Mod: This thread is heading down a rabbit hole.

I will close it for now for review.

marno21 · 30-06-2023 3:44pm

An Bord Pleanála (ABP) approved the scheme with conditions on 6 December 2021. Three applications for judicial review have been granted by the High Court. The High Court has imposed a stay on progressing the scheme. On 30 January the High Court quashed the ABP decision to approve the scheme and remitted the application back before the Board to the point in time immediately after the submission of the Inspector’s Report. ABP to reconsider the application and make a new decision. The NTA have commenced work on the update to the Galway Transport Strategy. The new GMATS will assess the need for the proposed N6 GCRR as well as other transport modes.

No matter what the NTA decide, Ryan will remove this from the GMATS as he has done in other cities. Another battle on the way.

marno21 · 25-10-2023 12:53pm

As posted by @Limerick74 , this is once again before ABP.

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2023/1025/1412889-galway-road/

Feel free to restart Groundhog Day here and have the same debates as before, but play the ball not the man please.

McGrath5 · 25-10-2023 1:04pm

"Both councils say they are confident their plans will stand up to such scrutiny."

Interesting to see how they can square this with the Climate action plan, like no matter what way they sell it this road will only serve to induce more car traffic.

what_traffic · 25-10-2023 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282195#Comment_121282195

Will they share with the public what those updates are in a clear and transparent manner!

25-10-2023 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282143#Comment_121282143

So will this have to go back out for public consultation or hearings seeing as the application has been modified?

Is there any info on what these modifications are?

Limerick74 · 25-10-2023 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282258#Comment_121282258

The submitted documents are likely to be available on project website once ABP are set up.

remfan · 25-10-2023 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282195#Comment_121282195

Does anyone have a summary (data) that can show that the plan won't align with the 2023 Climate Action Plan. What specifically in the plan would drive a determination from ABP that their original rejection of the approval should stand? The councils must have reviewed the climate action plan and the ring road design and come to the conclusion that is has no impact on the original decision to grant permission. Unless they view hope as a strategy.

Kermit.de.frog · 25-10-2023 2:44pm

Great news. Let's get on with it.

timmyntc · 25-10-2023 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282389#Comment_121282389

The issue last time was ABP did not consider how the project would impact the States climate plan. Not that it was in contravention of said plan.

No judgement has been made on that yet, so its up to ABP this time to see how the ring road fits into the national climate plan. (It wont)

remfan · 25-10-2023 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282950#Comment_121282950

The challenge here is with a blanket statement "its up to ABP this time to see how the ring road fits into the national climate plan. (It wont)". Why won't it, specifically? That is what will drive the decision, if the plan doesn't have clear and specific rules, that shows that the ring road as planned is in contravention, then I cannot see it having any impact on the decision. What in the plan prevents the road getting the go ahead?

timmyntc · 25-10-2023 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282991#Comment_121282991

The CAP has targets for 20% reduction in all road journey kms by 2030, and 50% of all journeys to be walking/cycling/PT.

The ring road has been shown to increase number of car journeys and car miles travelled, and will cause more people to drive over public transport. This what the projects own modelling shows.

timmyntc · 25-10-2023 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283178#Comment_121283178

There are also some parts of CAP 23 on land use, namely that new land use planning should be "transport oriented planning" (i.e. not car transport), and also that Local Authorities need to ensure all urban transport design conforms to DMURS.

On the former point, a ring road with no bus lanes or parts of the project with public transport elements will likely fall foul of the requirement that new land use has PT in mind.

remfan · 25-10-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283178#Comment_121283178

The Friends of the Irish Environment have launched a judicial review challenge against the 2023 Climate Action Plan because the Plan fails to set out the detail necessary to show how exactly the government plans to reduce emissions in line with the legally binding carbon budgets.

The CAP targets such as “a 20% reduction in all road journey kms by 2030, and 50% of all journeys to be walking/cycling/PT” are just indicative items on a roadmap of actions for climate measures and policies that will be needed if we are to stay within the carbon budgets. They are not legally binding as far as I can tell.

The same group who successfully challenged the original ABP planning approval because of their failure to consider the new Climate Action Plan 2021, are now challenging the government on the 2023 version, because as it stands it has no teeth. This is a somewhat circular argument don’t you think?

25-10-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283324#Comment_121283324

Not in the least

If anything the legal challenge will have a similar effect i.e. it'll force the govt to put even more solid plans and actions into effect to clearly show a path to the targeted reductions. Right now, while they've done excellent work, there are gaps and omissions and its these that FIE are going after

On that basis alone, the case against the RR only grows stronger

The best the govt can hope for is ABP decide on the RR before the FIE case is decided

remfan · 25-10-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283355#Comment_121283355

That is exactly the issue, if ABP rule in favour before the FIE case, then the diggers move in. I expect that this is why the councils are confident that the re-submission will be a success, because the original reason for quashing the approval has no teeth (at least not yet). And as we know these cases can take years to be decided.

25-10-2023 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283394#Comment_121283394

No teeth? Regardless of the FIE challenge to the CAP, the GCRR was going to really struggle to be approved in line with CAP

That is still the case. It now has to be assessed against the current CAP requirements. Its very likely that it will fail that assessment for the reasons listed earlier.

Only change the FIE challenge to the CAP will make is future requirements are likely to be even stricter but then that was always going to be the case based on how we've set out the carbon budgeting.

We'll have to wait and see either way, maybe ABP will approve it, maybe they won't. Until we know what is contained in the updated application its hard to make a judgement call either way

Pete_Cavan · 25-10-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283394#Comment_121283394

Thinking that a favourable decision from ABP is the end of that is very naive. It would almost certainly result in an immediate new legal challenge of the ABP decision that such a decision cannot be made until the FIE case has been adjudicated on (and adequate changes have been made to the CAP should FIE win). The initial court applications have probably already been written.

Even if ABP rule in favour before the FIE case, diggers wont be moving in for a long time. They will have to complete detailed design, conclude CPOs, undertake all advanced works and then tender the main contract. There is a couple of years in all that, the FIE case will likely have been ruled upon before diggers move in.

remfan · 25-10-2023 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283716#Comment_121283716

It now has to be assessed against the current CAP requirements. These are only guidelines, they are not requirements. That is the central problem with the CAP and it is toothless sadly. I cannot see why they have resubmitted if they really don't believe it has a chance to pass this time.

remfan · 25-10-2023 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283723#Comment_121283723

I cannot see a retrospective blocking of permission once the contracts are in place and the various steps to deliver the actual project have started. Have we seen any projects stopped due to planning at that point before? I don't know of any but would be interested in hearing about them and what drove the change to the approved contract and associated activities.

25-10-2023 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284019#Comment_121284019

I cannot see why they have resubmitted if they really don't believe it has a chance to pass this time.

They have no option. They have to keep going until they either get permission or it gets killed completely. The quashing merely meant they had more work to do before one of those results was achieved

This will also need to get past a PSC review, which it may also struggle to do given the costs are likely to be in excess of 2 billion by that stage

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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