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Russian build up along Ukraine

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Any Government has to balance military capabilities with domestic concerns (ie industries), not buying Typhoons then meant the end of the domestic capability to build Fighters, while also paying the States for fighters. It’s been the same argument since WW2 for most of the European nations, also the reason why the European defence industry is still so splintered and repetitive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Don't the Brits only build the forward fuselage and the tail?

    No avionics, no engines, no undercarriage, no carbon fibre wings.

    That being the case, I don't think the Brits could any longer build any sort of whole combat plane on its own, in short order, even if it had to.

    And it has to be a concern. If Russia widened the War into central Europe tomorrow and got a foothold in Germany, it'd probably be enough to disrupt the entire Eurofighter delivery capability.

    If NATO are serious about rapid expansion of the European member's militaries, then when it comes to combat aircraft, the Typhoon should probably all move to a small number of sites, preferably somewhere like Spain.

    This nonsense of building the plane in 10 different sites and gluing it all together in Germany, is a peace time indulgence that no longer works.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    How exactly would Russia do that? Lets not be jumping at shadows, this war has proved their capabilities are fall less than what they have been doing PR with.

    As to the UK, it's not just the industrial base, it's also the r&d infrastructure for development, hence why the UK is pushing their Tempest as a Next Gen fighter (and the French and Germans are trying to agree their project), and why BAe managed a by in for the F35 project. Just look at the saga of UK procurement during the Cold War. It's nothing new, through out the Cold War you had either projects built to sustain domestic capabilities (ie the French) or at the very least licenced production for "smaller" countries/militaries (Netherlands, Greece etc), it's no different than the US spreading procurement of their fighters/bombers across all 50 states to buy political votes.

    As for NATO being serious about enlarging European militaries, that doesn't override domestic politics, so all the European nations combined will still have duplication left, right and center so as to keep domestic employment and tax bases going (ie multiple SSK designs, multiple armour projects, 2-3 Next Gen fighter projects, etc etc). You aren't going to last in a Government if you declare that you are going to shut a local industry and move it all to another country, that's simple politics



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


     "If Russia widened the War into central Europe tomorrow and got a foothold in Germany..."

    LOL! Come back to me when they've taken Ukraine, or do you think they are only fighting with kid gloves currently?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Next you will have Russia coming through the Sally gap to attack Dublin. If the Russians even manage to defeat Ukraine ( and I am of the opinion it's will be the other way around) there military will be destroyed as an offencive force. Any effective for es left will be tied down by insurgency for es in Ukraine

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    To get to Germany they'd have to get through Poland first. It's not happening.

    Rolls-Royce didn't make the Typhoon engines all by themselves but they didn't for the Tornado (or Concorde) either. Politics.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Ye would all be foolish to forget that the Russians haven't even taken the covers off their strategic weapons yet, or employed a full reserve mobilisation, or put the Navy onto a War footing, or opened up a Belarusian front with the forces of that Country.

    In other words, Russia is far from fully committed militarily and is only so far seeking to walk the fine line between gaining ground in Ukraine and triggering a wider conflict they aren't ready for yet.

    Only this morning Russia thought nothing of flying missiles over Moldova and Romania. Romania is NATO for jaysis sake.

    Independent intelligence reports are showing a mass of 2,000 Russian tanks gearing up for the predicted new offensive in the east.

    Even in the event of a border outbreak near Polish territory, the RAF would have to commit even more fighters to the NATO bulwark and fully stock its Carriers for operational service.

    Point being, Britain scarcely has enough planes for its own needs, right now, with donating aircraft to Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Sweat zombie Jesus, give the **** over with the “Russia strong” shite, across the board they have demonstrated that they can’t compete with a relatively constrained force like Ukraine, they can’t fight a war with NATO, not with what they have or can have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I’d disagree about air superiority, they are mostly staying over their own areas, you aren’t seeing them try interdiction flights against deep areas in Ukraine for example, and their own air assets are flying at the same height due to SAMs as well. And yes HARMs have been macgyvered onto MIG 29s from some of the footage they have showed and some examples of damaged Russian hardware. Of course the Russian bombers are staying deep in Russian territory (which isn’t exactly an offensive position) but their strikes have been massively wasteful for most of the time, and that SAM system has been proven vulnerable with Russia losing Strategic bombers to drone strikes deep within Russia, hell it’s not normal to set up short range SAMS on capital buildings if you are confident of your defences.

    The Russian Army is beyond scrapping the bottom of the barrel in both quality of manpower and equipment effectively at this stage and will have massive long term impacts for Russia anyway. As for the Navy, yeah losing a warship to a nation that effectively doesn’t have a navy isn’t great for anyone, but in reality it’s ability to affect the war is limited and it’s global abilities the same when compared to major Western or Asian Navies.

    And above all else, we aren’t talking about the hammering in Ukraine, we are talking about the (crazy imo) suggestion that somehow while they are fully committed to an utter meatgrinder that they could have the ability to engage in open warfare with the collective might of NATO… That’s not going to happen. It’s as likely as the floated suggestion back in the summer that they were preparing for conflict with Japan over their disputed areas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Calm down Sparky.

    Russian HAVE NOT used their full arsenal yet, we all know that.

    If they presented no threat, then NATO would be sending home the 4 Divisions forward deployed on the eastern flank. You may have noticed that they are not.

    Russia are not as strong as anyone thought - especially themselves - but they aren't weak either and are entirely capable of inflicting massive damage if they so choose.

    The point of this conversation is the around the surplus availability of NATO combat aircraft to make available to Ukraine, if that was to become the policy. There are few or none, in the European forces anyway.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Outside of nukes what exactly have they been holding back? They’ve stripped units and equipment from everywhere from the Chinese border to the Kalingrad to maintain operations and that’s with two rounds of mobilisation to try and boost numbers as well. This “Russia is holding back” is no different than the tankies proclaiming that Putin ordered retreats as signs of good will…

    They have burned through their MBT stocks, they’ve burned through their special forces, they have lost a measurable faction of their helicopter fleet, they have lost irreplaceable ships and planes, and that’s not even touching the demographic and economic damage they have done to themselves, but you are arguing that they have capacity to try anything in widening this war?

    Of course NATO is keeping their forces forward deployed, the Baltic’s in particular have no depth or capability to defend themselves, and Vlad hasn’t been slow in threatening them but likewise Russia has no capacity to enlarge this war. It’s telling that when Sweden and Finland announced their intention to join NATO there was barely a whimper from Moscow compared to preinvasion sabre rattling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 AliceN


    I'd like to add that one of the reasons why Russian forces don't demonstrate big results across the board is that a lot of their soldiers are not ready to fight for death, some of them are attempting to defect. Most of them decided to take part in this war because of money. And Ukrainians fight for their motherland, their freedom, and a better future. There is a big difference. I mean the strength of spirit plays a great role here. 

    I follow not only the news about the war but also about various Ukrainian projects. The last one I discovered was CarDonate. Its goal is to find people who want to donate tjeir old vehicle for military needs.

    It is amazing how many people have transformed their lives to support each other and fight in the war, both on the front line, and in the back.

    Post edited by AliceN on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    What a pair of Flankers!

    Probably not a great development to increase trust and safety.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    So if anyone missed it, seems Wagner (or a part of it) has mutinied after possibly being attacked by the Russian military, left their positions in Ukraine heading back into Russia, and now Russian troops are reportedly being deployed while the FSB has ordered the arrest of Prigozhin...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If this is not some game of smoke and daggers by the russians and is real where does this leave Ukraine. Is there a chance to deliver a fatal blow to the russian forces in ukraine?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    So an already dicey major nuclear power is effectively in open insurrection and maybe soon full civil war.

    This is 'one second to Midnight' stuff folks. We can only hope some sense prevails and control is taken by the grown ups.

    Tom Clancy wasn't a fiction writer, he was a fcuking soothsayer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,078 ✭✭✭bogman_bass


    They are hardly going to use nukes on themselves are they?

    Things are exciting enough we don’t need to add those kinds of dramatics



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There hasn't been a grown-up in charge of Russia[*] since Gorbachev got deposed.


    [*] yes, yes I know, Soviet Union != Russia but he was in charge of Russia!

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    A grim but interesting piece about Dubliner Rhys Byrne, fighting alongside other international volunteers in the Ukrainian TA, on the front to recapture annexed eastern Ukraine.




  • Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Interesting perspective from this analyst on the current state of play and observations on the conduct of the war. Dunno if he is right or wrong ….





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    So the Ukrainian counteroffensive slowly continues as we head inevitably towards another frozen winter and probable stalemate for another while.

    In the Levant, a savage conflict has broken out between Iranian backed Arab militants and Israel, all while Israel cosies up to Saudi Arabia and the Emirates.

    In Syria, Russian and Turkish and US/Allied forces continue in some sort of undefined proxy conflict for and against the Assad regime.

    The Turks are fighting the Kurds and threatening the Greeks and the Cypriots.

    The Serbs are monstering Kosovo, The Azeris have ethnically cleansed Nogorno-Karabakh, the Indians are quarreling with Pakistan and China. China is quarreling with every nation in South Asia that borders the South China Sea, plus Australia. Japan and South Korea are beyond done with North Korea's crap and the Sahel is a complete mess of proxy regimes for Russia and its mercenaries!

    So, my argument is that we could be quite close to a global conventional war, a sudden escalation of dozens of parallel conflicts, becoming World War 3 if you like.

    In that eventuality, whither Ireland? What do we do, what do we need? How do we move from defenceless to being the western flank of fortress Europe?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭macraignil


    Tried to voice my suggestion for this type of view of how geopolitics might develop on this thread I started without a lot of positive response but I still think there is merit to a major effort here to develop this countries abilities in drone technology. The use of drones is clearly going to be a major part of future conflicts as can be seen in how every day in the Ukraine russia war, cheaply made drones are providing critical reconnaissance and targeting the enemy on a tactical and strategic level. I suggested that the new technology could be best developed by a new structure for its development but you yourself pointed out that it is all fine as it is and the existing branches of the military here have it all in hand.

    For the price of a few modern jet fighters we could have a cutting edge drone development centre and that's where I think efforts to provide for future security of this country should be focused. IT security is another area that needs attention as demonstrated by the recent hacking of the HSE network. Also food production needs to be assessed to see what can be done to counteract growing dependence on other countries for some foods with economics making a lot of more labour intensive food products simply cheaper to produce outside of the country and possibly some grants for producers of certain imported foods needed to improve our self sufficiency.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No I'm serious; in a 3am alarm call moment, a rapid escalation and confluence of conflicts on the doorstep of the EU, what do we actually do?

    What is the defensive posture of Ireland, with the men and the tools we have, today, this bright morning.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    We do what we do best as a nation sit on the fence and hope for the best



  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭mupper2


    This all has the real feeling of a building crescendo...like the World is just tipping towards a point where something real bad could kick it all off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Looks like “someone” has damaged/blown a gas pipeline from Finland to Estonia…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    My tankie senses tell me it was most likely Finland or Estonia, or Denmark. Or Indonesia.



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