Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Germany lost the war in 1942. They did not wave a white flag and go home and they fought and had support right to the bitter end. It took many years of re-education to convince them not to start another war. You can now imagine the ructions today when they are being asked to support a war, they left quite a lot of dead last time around in Ukraine, they are not inclined to repeat this. Even though though the Germans had lost, they continued to do damage for another 2 years afterwards.

It took the entry of the United States in Europe to insist on taking the shortest route to Germany to bring the war to to an end sooner, the Brits on their own could not take the fight to the continent, they could only fight in the North African desert with the aid of troops from the colonies.

Likewise, even if forced back to the pre-2014 borders, that's not the end. Russians may spend a few years squabbling among themselves, or other powers may make a bid for territory. Finland may see its chance to grab Karelia, China will see it's change to grab Manchuria and all the resources east of the Urals. That won't suit Europe or the United States so they will make a play for the area west of the Urals spearheaded by Poland and Turkey would like to secure the south to Kazakhstan. You think they would not do that? or would they let the place dissolve into multiple 'stans? with nukes lying around until they were no longer viable.

Another scenario is Russia takes much of the territory east of the Dniper and Ukrainian army fronts collapse and retreat to Kiev. European countries wreaked by combination of material shortages and high unemployment, no longer have the willingness to fight and a stalemate is reached. by the river being the diving line. Neither side Russia or EU will survive such an outcome and will face the economic crisis of debt collapse. Historically all sides that get involved in European land war end up broke. The only winner from this would be China, simply by not having to expect resources in the war.

At the moment the objective for Moscow is hold what they have and advance to the river and subjugate Kiev. Kiev wants to drive Russia back to the 2014 borders and have Russia pay compensation. How are they going to get there?

‘That’s called World War III’: Biden defends decision not to send jets to Ukraine

Well now . . .

Ukraine expects 24 fighter jets from allies as part of first package – media

Wars never pan out the way their planners intended.

Pure whataboutry ....

They invaded Iraq twice and beat the Iraqi twice and then came back to fight isis .

Remind us what did Russia do in all the time occupied a small part of Georgia and part of Ukraine,

And lost over 100,000 men , thousands of tanks,Apcs , aircraft in a little over 9 months this year

Compare the losses from Iraq and enjoy the laugher

You need to re-familiarise yourself with the definition of whataboutery. Providing another example of a war not going to plan, while agreeing with your own point on Russia's plan to invade Ukraine, isn't whataboutery. I think it is safe to say that the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Ukraine, both unique and independing of one another, didn't go to plan. Not every post is an attempt to fly this flag or that flag, and then warranting your immediate shutdown.

Re enormous cost... In present day terms, I believe that out of its huge and I mean the literally, huge US Defense budget of 1.01 Trillion $ for 2023, the war in Ukraine is costing peanuts, relatively speaking. For sure, it will cost a damn sight more if Russia wins, and at some future date the US will face a conflict with China over Taiwan , then it will have to face both China and re-invigorated Russia. Then watch the costs rise astronomically. Nope, better for everyone, world wide that Russia be soundly defeated, and its threats to the world eliminated as much as possible.

It went to plan invade and defeat the Iraqi army ,job done,

The massive insurgencies and tribal blood letting wasn't a part of the original plan , but that insurgency was put down and defeated , then came isis and they were also defeated thanks to American firepower and Kurdish forces on the ground,

Not the Russians as some have previously claimed on boards.

But compare the losses of the Americans in Iraq less than 10,000 men for how many years fighting combat daily,and compare to the Russians losses in Ukraine for the last 11 months, and still increasing

I wonder if Rand consulted the Ukrainians before publicizing their report? Does not look like it anyhow. And if the Rand Corporation ever found themselves in the same situation that Ukraine finds itself in, would it change their opinion about outcomes? Ukrainians have two choices, either passively allow themselves to be slaughtered, or to die fighting. That's it. Something that no Rand Corporation Executive has had to face, but would not be a bad thing if some of these "Corporation Executive's" come with an asse's roar of a conflict zone. A small dose of reality would go along way.

Like all previous Soviet wonderwaffen aircraft they are overrated and no the mig31 can't fly sustained Mach 2.8 as they claim,it's maybe be able to get up to that speed for all but limited time before the engines start to fail ,it's a point defense aircraft like the mig29 you believe can take a Squadron of F-16s and and beat them,seems no experts in the aviation world share your opinion neither do the US and Nato pilots who have flown both the mig and f16s

It's a show pony flys fast launches a cruise missile and then flees for safety of Russia .

And yet A10s got shot down in Iraq and multiple survived SAM hits

It's not a vital bridge as there's simple ways to detour so it sounds like it was an ambush on the convoy passing over. Most likely partisans attacking the convoy. Melitopol has been an area of resistance attacks since the invasion started.

They're all here, piling one after the other. Such fun!

Who said anything about a utopia? Believe me, I'd love if it was all about utopias and ethics, but that isn't how politics works.

I am merely trying to make sense of the information that comes my way. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if you don't like my interpretation of it.

Already answered, see an earlier post of mine, https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120173607/#Comment_120173607.

I don't think so, I'm happy with the research I've already done. But thanks anyway for taking the time to give me your advice.

I'm fine, thanks. I don't need to prove anything to you. I provide my opinions, you can take em or leave em. It's all the one to me.

Hey, it's not my fault that you know so little about Rand. But they are rather famous:

It is financed by the U.S. government and private endowment, corporations, universities and private individuals.

Here's a puff piece about how wonderful it is:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/22120/rand-corporation-think-tank-controls-america

But you're not providing your opinion, you are parroting russian propaganda conistently without providing your own opinion for how the special operation/war is resolved.

And the reason for that, as everybody who reads your posts knows, is that you want Ukraine to be abandoned to russia instead of russia decimating themselves in embarrassing fashion on the world stage and:

• Losing all their political influence
• Losing their energy customers
• Losing the next generation of their country
• Losing their economy
• Losing all the customers for their military equipment
• Made NATO even more powerful

And the worst bit for russia is that even if they are successful in Ukraine, this remains true.

Oh I'm aware of the Rand Corporation...hard to live in the west and not know about it. But that still does not answer my question to you re your comment about why should they consult with Ukraine when compiling a report to be presented to the US Government. As one of the two main protagonists' in the war, Ukraine's position is surely paramount to any discussion, especially in a report to the US?

I think this is what Ursula van der leine was referring to when she mentioned 100k Ukrainian losses last year. I suspect the civilian losses for Ukraine are catastrophic rather than their military losses