Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

swiwi_ · 24-01-2023 7:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120131226#Comment_120131226

Lol. I think that’s the first time Ive ever read that it’s a shame Italy got better. No pleasing some people.

aloooof · 24-01-2023 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150006#Comment_120150006

Particularly minor point to add too (and possibly one for the Munster thread), but Kleyn's highest number of passes in a game is 6 vs the Bulls. That was on the day where we fielded out heaviest back-5 of the pack this season in Kleyn, Edogbo, Beirne, POM and Coombes. I don't think that's a coincidence.

(He had 25 tackles that day too).

lawrencesummers · 24-01-2023 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152227#Comment_120152227

There was a benefit to having an easy game in the competition, so in some regards its a negative and in some its a positive, but then again Cardiff is the new rome.

Bogwoppit · 24-01-2023 9:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152478#Comment_120152478

We’ve only won there once since 2015.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 24-01-2023 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151829#Comment_120151829

Ryan does the lineout calling.

Often the lineout caller is assumed to be a leader. He makes important decisions about the lineout and is consulted by the captain before deciding whether to kick a penalty of kick down the line.

Personally I feel that Ryan is definitely a leader but there are plenty of leaders in the team and giving one of the others prominence would be better imo.

Bogwoppit · 24-01-2023 11:12pm

Ringrose has been primed for the captaincy for years. He’s the go to for Leinster more and more.

POM is the only other likely candidate for Ireland but may not be as nailed on a starter enough to take over the role.

pickarooney · 25-01-2023 7:37am

Ryan captained every team he played on AFAIK. I don't know much about his media training but that's a trivial aspect as far as I'm concerned. It's not like Ringrose or Sexton have any real media presence beyond throwing out a few bland platitudes.

Furlong, POM and Lowe are about the only media friendly players on the team.

kuang1 · 25-01-2023 8:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154251#Comment_120154251

And if this man ever makes it to the Irish camp, he should be put in front of the media every week!

https://youtu.be/sRdgcUzDh80

sydthebeat · 25-01-2023 9:16am

Think I counted four f bombs there

"Some craic" alright

pickarooney · 25-01-2023 9:18am

Honestly is there anyone who's actually offended and not charmed by that kind of interview? Give me that any day over "we knew it would be a tough game, they're a serious opponent, we're delighted with the result" after a 50-0 pasting.

25-01-2023 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154251#Comment_120154251

The reason I mentioned Ryan in the first place is he very obviously has an on-field leadership role. If you watch during the 6N Sexton will very often consult him if they are deciding on whether to go at goal or kick to the corner. He seems to be the pack leader at the moment so he would definitely be in the frame. Anyway as I said above I don't really think it's a big deal, we're not going to win or lose a game depending on whether POM or Ryan is the captain.

lawrencesummers · 25-01-2023 9:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152891#Comment_120152891

A come off the stage. Wales are pants.

We have only lost to them once in the last 6 meetings of the teams and that was a game where we went down to 14 men after 13 minutes, had to bring on billy burns at 12 for a while, lost sexton to injury and they still only won by 5 points.

The aggregate score in those 6 games is 140-78.

Wales are in dire trouble, they have terrible underage teams and nobody coming through pushing out elderly players in key positions like Ken owens, AWJ, north, tupiric, faletau.

Their record in the autumn was a hiding by NZ, a loss to a decimated Australia side, a loss to a Georgian side and a solitary unconvincing win against Argentina.

In last years 6 nations they only beat Scotland which was by a late drop goal after Scotland went down to 14 men.

Sure maybe gatland can turn it around, he is an excellent coach and they have home advantage for the Irish game but its a big old leaky and creaky ship that was pointed in the wrong direction for a long time.

I would expect them to put up a battle based on the performances of their players in the league and europe recently but over 80 minutes they wont keep up with the pace and intensity Ireland bring. It will take something like a red card or YC, a major miracle and some serious home town reffing for them to win this game

25-01-2023 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154408#Comment_120154408

A lot of what you are saying applied in 2019. They were in terrible form coming into the tournament and won the slam.

I think we'll win in Cardiff - I'm just not as confident as I was when Pivac was still in charge. Gatland is probably not even as technically proficient a coach as Pivac - but he's a better man manager and Wales for whatever their flaws are as a group, will put in a massive shift to try and turn us over. As has been said it's the perfect match at the perfect time for them, I expect what goes on on the pitch to be utterly brutal.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-01-2023 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120153536#Comment_120153536

I totally agree Ryan isn't the go-to for leinster, Ringrose is.

The media stuff isn't trivial either. If a bloke is more introverted, the media stuff would be a big, stressful distracion from the actual job of training, playing well and thinking strategically on the pitch.

They talk about leadership groups and Ryan would probably be great in that role. Doing the research on opposition and thinking through the set pieces and so on. But i just don't see him as an obvious captain.

Must love hardship · 25-01-2023 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154404#Comment_120154404

Not to drag up moment from last years 6 nations that has been done to death again. But ultimately it comes down to the captains decision on if ireland go to the corner v France last year when carberry kicks the penalty on about 70 minutes to put 3 between the teams.

You could argue that's the winning or losing of the match.

aloooof · 26-01-2023 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149891#Comment_120149891

Not to labour the point here RE: Kleyn (he says, as he sets about labouring the point) but some might find the following stats interesting.

Carries, Metres, Passes and Tackle stats, normalised per 80 mins for all the players that were referenced in the discussion, for their Provinces this season (it'd be interesting to get the Ireland stats in there too).

I don't think Kleyn's passing, carrying and metres stats pale significantly to the others:

The 2 outliers are Beirne's passing and McCarthy's metres. McCarthy's stats coloured by 54m from 3 carries against that shadow Gloucester team, but to be fair, I don't see any of the others except maybe Beirne capable of doing that anyways.

26-01-2023 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159581#Comment_120159581

What's apparent from that is that Ryan, Henderson and Kleyn fulfil a pretty similar role for their clubs. Beirne very much the 5.5 of the bunch.

The sample size on McCarthy makes a comparison pointless, albeit I would say that his ability to get beyond the first tackler and his fairly explosive pace have as much to do with those meters run as the nature of the opposition do.

aloooof · 26-01-2023 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159870#Comment_120159870

I must get around to doing same for Baird, as he's closer to the half-lock mould too so would be another interesting comparison. (Albeit, has played majority of his minutes at 6)

Edit: Just put it together quickly; his stats look really favourable, particularly his metres and carrying.

There's a more even distribution too, so there isn't a significant outlier impacting the stats (in the way there is for McCarthy). He's had games where's he's had 6.5, 6.4 and 5.2 metres per carry.

stephen_n · 26-01-2023 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159581#Comment_120159581

Based on those stats, whatever about McCarthy. He should be ahead of Henderson.

stephen_n · 26-01-2023 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159885#Comment_120159885

He’s playing 6 though.

26-01-2023 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159885#Comment_120159885

Yeah, tbf what is lost in those stats, and what is a weakness of Baird's (as a lock) and a strength of guys like Jenkins and Kleyn is the disruptive part of the lock role: scrummaging, maul (offensive and defensive) and ruck impacts. I would rate Joe McCarthy pretty highly on all of those three, but not so much Baird.

Leinster have gotten it right by shifting Baird to 6, it suits his skillset best and he has a much higher ceiling there.

aloooof · 26-01-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161156#Comment_120161156

Ya, agree tbh; there are plenty examples now of games where the calibre of munster's maul is directly related to whether Kleyn is on the pitch or not. Stats on metres lost in the maul would be interesting. As would latches.

TRC10 · 26-01-2023 5:28pm

There are valid arguments for Kleyn to be selected over McCarthy, who is there based on his potential. But equally, the same arguments could have been (and were) made when Casey was getting selected over McGrath, or when Crowley was selected over Ross Byrne.

For years we've complained about Ireland taking too long to pick young players compared to other countries. But now that we're doing that under Farrell, the young player is too raw/not the finished article and we want the steady old pro in instead. That's the thing about young players, 9 times out of 10 they are raw. Particularly in the TH lock role that McCarthy plays, where players often don't hit their peak until their late 20s (sometimes early 30s).

I'll be the first to admit that McCarthy's discipline isn't good enough. But even against Racing at the weekend, which wasn't his best game, his impact in the carry and in defense was clear to see. Also, look at his work in the lineout maul in the 28th minute that wins Leinster a turnover. He's also excellent at reading attacks and nailing opposition out halves. He did it to Carbery down in Thomond and he did it to Russell at the weekend.

Kleyn is 29 years old. Realistically, is he going to improve enough between now and the world cup to displace Ryan, Henderson or Beirne? IMO, probably not. But if O'Connell and Easterby can iron out some of the immaturities in McCarthy's game over the next couple of months, I think he can make an impact for Ireland in the medium term. I get why that might frustrate Munster fans. But Leinster fans said the same things when Casey was being invested in over McGrath. Luke may have been playing better, but Casey was always the higher potential player and we're seeing that now.

pickarooney · 26-01-2023 5:40pm

Russell just spun out of that tackle. The timing was good but he'd have been better off taking the legs and driving him back.

aloooof · 26-01-2023 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161387#Comment_120161387

But now that we're doing that under Farrell, the young player is too raw/not the finished article and we want the steady old pro in instead.

Fwiw, at no point have I said Kleyn should have been selected over McCarthy.

When it comes to picking 3rd/4th choice players in a particular positon, I absolutely understand the logic in going for the young, high-potential option.

ulsteru20s · 26-01-2023 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159870#Comment_120159870

Yea, kleyn is natural replacement for Ryan if he was injured. Minus the lineout. You lose that with Kleyn.

Baird has elite potential at 6. He is a guy id like to see get alot of time in the 6 nations.

26-01-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162078#Comment_120162078

I have question marks around Baird's decision making and situational awareness. There's no doubting his athleticism and work rate, he could do with a bit more aggression in his game but he's having his best season since moving to the backrow. As someone already alluded too - his ceiling at 6 is higher, but I'm not sure he quite has the guile for blindside just yet.

Former Former Former · 26-01-2023 8:45pm

Think people are really underselling McCarthy's ability right now. There's simply no way they're picking anyone now, in a world cup year, for what they might be in a couple of years.

28-01-2023 11:33am

Fairly fluffy content but the team selection at the end is interesting in it's uniformity. https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/the-six-nations-jury-can-ireland-win-a-grand-slam-our-experts-give-their-verdict-42316539.html

Really only the 12 jersey is where there are differing opinions and the bench to a degree but the various 23s are suggestive of a fairly settled team.

Interestingly everyone went for Sheehan at 2. I think that's fair given that he's been the healthier of the two and has delivered with the game time he's been given. But I'm not sure I'd have gone the same way. I think Kelleher might be the slightly better scrummager, and when Sheehan came on against Racing at the weekend he was an absolute wrecking ball, made a huge impact off the bench in a way that I don't think we'd get with Kelleher.

stephen_n · 28-01-2023 11:59am

The team predominantly picks itself bar injuries. 12 and the backrow bench options are the only real questions bar injuries.

sydthebeat · 28-01-2023 12:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169061#Comment_120169061

i think at this stage sheehans darts are better than kellehers, and that will be a big deciding point

Shehal · 28-01-2023 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169143#Comment_120169143

I think one of the winger positions is also up for grabs if Lowe isn't considered ready to play. Mack Hansen starts and then the other wing comes down to who's considered best to start.

AbusesToilets · 28-01-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169567#Comment_120169567

If Lowe is out, I could see Osbourne getting the nod for his boot

sydthebeat · 28-01-2023 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169620#Comment_120169620

Jimmy o Brien would go in first, into the wing. Big left foot option at well

Shehal · 28-01-2023 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169620#Comment_120169620

I would actually like Osborne to get a go at 12, he's the most Henshaw like player we have for the 12 position and with Sexton & Ringrose either side of him I would feel confident in him stepping up.

28-01-2023 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169061#Comment_120169061

I think Sheehan has taken his game to another level this year. I still rate Kelleher as an elite international hooker, and he looks the better scrummager, but Sheehan is close to the best hooker in the world over the past 6 months in my view.

TRC10 · 28-01-2023 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169143#Comment_120169143

Surely one of the backrow should be up for debate. POM was incredible in NZ but hasn't been as good since. Coombes, Conan and Baird are in better form this season. There's also the option of Henderson coming in and shifting Beirne to 6. The backrow definitely shouldn't be set in stone. Even though the world Cup is this year, we should still be open to changes.

Former Former Former · 28-01-2023 6:11pm

Every single position is up for grabs, if someone can stake a claim.

Farrell has proved that over and over and over.

Tommysocks11 · 28-01-2023 10:56pm

O mahony should not be an automatic starter, too lightweight for a 6 and goes missing in games too often, he is very good though when on his game

ulsteru20s · 29-01-2023 6:34am

I’d like to see Beirne at 6, or Coombes or Baird.

POM is great in the lineout though and also is pretty vicious cleaning out out wide.

29-01-2023 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170030#Comment_120170030

If someone plays to the level they need to unseat one of the backrow then they'll start. The team is settled well enough now but under Farrell we've had Keenan, Hansen, Lowe, JGP, Doris, Kelleher/Sheehan all break into the team.

Lil Fred · 29-01-2023 3:13pm

Crowley should start at 12

Bogwoppit · 29-01-2023 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120173434#Comment_120173434

Why?

We have great options at 12, Mcloskey, Aki, Osborne and henshaw when he’s back fit.

Crowley is there as a 10, that’s where he needs time.

Paul Smeenus · 29-01-2023 6:53pm

Kelleher injured, Tom Stewart called up to Ireland squad. Richly deserved.

bilston · 29-01-2023 6:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120174291#Comment_120174291

The depth at hooker is unbelievable at the minute.

Stewart looks the absolute dogs b******s IMO, yet Sheehan is maybe the best hooker in the world. Kelleher is a top top player as we know and Herring, while different to the other three, has never let Ireland down and I'd never worry if he started for Ireland.

TRC10 · 29-01-2023 7:15pm

Fingers crossed Stewart being called up is precautionary and Kelleher is fit for the Wales game. Herring is very reliable and I definitely wouldn't worry if he's involved, but he just doesn't possess the explosive quality of the other too. Having the Kelleher/Sheehan duo in the 23, with one doing 50 minutes and the other doing 30, and having that level of impact in the hooker position over 80 minutes is a massive weapon in our armoury, and losing that would be a big loss.

Likewise, it's been a long time since we've had the locking trio of Ryan/Beirne/Henderson all fit at once, which will massively strengthen our match day 23. We could be in a position where we're bringing Kelleher, Henderson, Conan and Aki off the bench in the 2nd half and really finishing games strongly as opposed to hanging on for dear life.